EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 238
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 23 2014 04:12 shivver wrote: whats up with the collosus drop in pvt? How come we never see any pros do this? If you youtube "collosus drop" into youtube you can see where puck pulls off some very very pretty micro with it It's too weak right now, colossus openings in general have fallen way off due to the power of SCV pulls. SCV pulls are very powerful against colossus based builds, so most players are going templar first, or doing the oracle/twilight into fast 3 bases. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
Storm drops on the other hand are sexy as hell. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On February 23 2014 05:45 Teoita wrote: Colossus drops in general are bad because they kill scv's, probes and drones so slowly that a competent opponent will easily pull his workers away before any damage is done. Storm drops on the other hand are sexy as hell. Well I can't open with storm drops lol well, maybe I can I never thought about that. The problem is I don't think I can open oracle robo and tech to storm +2 armor + the prism in a way that won't get me killed early. I don't know though I haven't thought about it The build I'm specifically talking about is this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Colossus_Drop_(vs._Terran) If you watch what puck does, he literally whittles his opponents army down in these 3 vids I'm just.. in love with the micro | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On February 23 2014 07:48 shivver wrote: Well I can't open with storm drops lol well, maybe I can I never thought about that. The problem is I don't think I can open oracle robo and tech to storm +2 armor + the prism in a way that won't get me killed early. I don't know though I haven't thought about it Good news: you don't need an oracle. Dear and Hero showed effective storm drop openings here: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_2/b/477842767?t=5h52m02s (Dear vs. Taeja) Two completely different options on display (Dear rushes for it and Hero does not). Also, all the videos you posted are from WoL. I've yet to see a colossus drop in HotS but it sounds like a bad idea. You need an ultra-quick robo bay, which both sets your economy and upgrades behind and acts as a red flag if the terran scouts it. If you wait and try to do the strat with a normally-timed robo bay, the terran will have a starport with reactor by the time you get to his base, unless he did a very greedy opening. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
(the prism harass is actually to keep terran at home while he's rushing storm out) | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On February 23 2014 09:04 city42 wrote: Good news: you don't need an oracle. Dear and Hero showed effective storm drop openings here: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_2/b/477842767?t=5h52m02s (Dear vs. Taeja) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5lEoNZK-90 Two completely different options on display (Dear rushes for it and Hero does not). Also, all the videos you posted are from WoL. I've yet to see a colossus drop in HotS but it sounds like a bad idea. You need an ultra-quick robo bay, which both sets your economy and upgrades behind and acts as a red flag if the terran scouts it. If you wait and try to do the strat with a normally-timed robo bay, the terran will have a starport with reactor by the time you get to his base, unless he did a very greedy opening. In HoTS because of the msc it should actually be easier since you don't need sentries to defend. A widow mine could be a huge issue but idk really I haven't messed around with it enough yet. With that said, I'm going to watch the vod. Storm drops are more effective but you know, dat micro just isn't quite the same. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On February 23 2014 09:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: HerO's build is definitely a storm drop rush. He goes 1gate expand robo right into twilight council for super fast storm while still being safe with continued immortal production. And of course since he's HerO he can't resist the temptation of loading units into the prism he already has and doing funky things with them until storm is done. (the prism harass is actually to keep terran at home while he's rushing storm out) If Hero's build is a rush, Dear's is a Usain Bolt sprint. Not sure why it matters, though, as I just used the term to indicate that Dear's storm drop hits much earlier. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
Also, how can you hold such an early third with this build? When I play it, it always seems like I don't have enough units. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On February 23 2014 07:48 shivver wrote: Well I can't open with storm drops lol well, maybe I can I never thought about that. The problem is I don't think I can open oracle robo and tech to storm +2 armor + the prism in a way that won't get me killed early. I don't know though I haven't thought about it The build I'm specifically talking about is this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Colossus_Drop_(vs._Terran) If you watch what puck does, he literally whittles his opponents army down in these 3 vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXyq6E5H_Zg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVAnANYhJv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKY5XC1vMMg I'm just.. in love with the micro Well firstly, i'd point that Colossi drops were never really that popular in the first place, pucK was one of the few notable users of the strategy. There's also the threat of widow mines which makes the drop a little riskier. That said, i think it has real uses in HotS. Photon overcharge allows you be even greedier than WoL, especially since the drop forces your opponent to be pretty defensive, and the warp prim's natural speed is faster now (although u still want the speed upgrade anyway). If it wasn't so micro-intensive, then yea, maybe people would and should use it more. And as a side note, those puck colossi drop games are a must watch. Some of my favourite protoss videos to watch when im feeling down :D Amazing micro. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On February 23 2014 07:48 shivver wrote: Well I can't open with storm drops lol well, maybe I can I never thought about that. The problem is I don't think I can open oracle robo and tech to storm +2 armor + the prism in a way that won't get me killed early. I don't know though I haven't thought about it The build I'm specifically talking about is this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Colossus_Drop_(vs._Terran) If you watch what puck does, he literally whittles his opponents army down in these 3 vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXyq6E5H_Zg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVAnANYhJv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKY5XC1vMMg I'm just.. in love with the micro If you enjoy the micro and are fascinated by it, do it! Don't fail to explore game options just because the general consensus is that it's too micro-intensive or impossible to do in a real macro game, etc. Do what you find fun and interesting, and continue to innovate; just make sure that your macro isn't slipping and your game plan makes sense. On February 23 2014 09:42 city42 wrote: If Hero's build is a rush, Dear's is a Usain Bolt sprint. Not sure why it matters, though, as I just used the term to indicate that Dear's storm drop hits much earlier. Dear's build IS a Usain Bolt sprint. In either case, they're both "storm drop rushes". As a sidenote, I just want to explain that opening oracle isn't about "being aggressive" or "getting lots of worker kills"; the main strength of opening oracle is that it forces a certain response out of the Terran and allows you to keep them pinned back defensively with relatively little investment (300/300 to contain your opponent until 8:00 is the best deal in the game). When you think of it like that, opening oracle -> storm drops is a decent plan, but you'll likely have to skip the robo to afford it. On February 23 2014 12:18 Daimai wrote: If I do HerO's aggressive gateway build in PvZ (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvz/pvz-heros-aggressive-stargate-build/), how do I adapt if zerg goes for really early speedlings (gas and pool before hatch)? I have lost several games because I haven't been able to defend my natural against the lings. Also, how can you hold such an early third with this build? When I play it, it always seems like I don't have enough units. Gate expands usually have a wall and sentry up by 5:30, which is about the earliest most speedling all-ins hit. A simple alteration is to simply scout after nexus for his natural and third; if late natural, build a sentry instead of a second stalker. When the pressure hits, you'll have to rewall with extra gates/pylons while relying on sentry warpins and your MSC/nexus cannon. If your timing is crisp, you should be able to hit with ~6 zealots/2 stalkers/MSC around 7:30. I personally prefer using recall here instead of time warp, but it all comes down to a judgment call: if you can do pretty serious damage with your units use time warp, but if your opponent is already prepared with roaches/mass lings/spines, just recall. Once you have ~2-3 void rays, you can safely take a 3rd base; you don't need a lot of ground units. If he trades 30 lings for a nexus cancel, you are WAY ahead. Alternatively, you can do this same build but replace the 3rd gateway with a forge. By doing so, you forgo your gateway pressure, but you can take a third and start upgrades a lot sooner. I personally prefer the gateway pressure, but it just comes down to style. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
guys I'm well aware templar openings are much stronger and more solid at the moment, I'm not arguing that at all.. I'm just doing this to put some more micro into my games and force my multi tasking to the limits. Also, thoughts on the best way to transition from this? Double forge into charge? Single forge into collosi/blink? Ideas? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
In general you can do pretty much whatever you want off a single colo with no range, it really comes down to personal preference. I figure going ht single forge would be hilarious because you'd mindfuck the hell out of the poor terran. | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
On February 23 2014 14:56 SC2John wrote: If you enjoy the micro and are fascinated by it, do it! Don't fail to explore game options just because the general consensus is that it's too micro-intensive or impossible to do in a real macro game, etc. Do what you find fun and interesting, and continue to innovate; just make sure that your macro isn't slipping and your game plan makes sense. Dear's build IS a Usain Bolt sprint. In either case, they're both "storm drop rushes". As a sidenote, I just want to explain that opening oracle isn't about "being aggressive" or "getting lots of worker kills"; the main strength of opening oracle is that it forces a certain response out of the Terran and allows you to keep them pinned back defensively with relatively little investment (300/300 to contain your opponent until 8:00 is the best deal in the game). When you think of it like that, opening oracle -> storm drops is a decent plan, but you'll likely have to skip the robo to afford it. Gate expands usually have a wall and sentry up by 5:30, which is about the earliest most speedling all-ins hit. A simple alteration is to simply scout after nexus for his natural and third; if late natural, build a sentry instead of a second stalker. When the pressure hits, you'll have to rewall with extra gates/pylons while relying on sentry warpins and your MSC/nexus cannon. If your timing is crisp, you should be able to hit with ~6 zealots/2 stalkers/MSC around 7:30. I personally prefer using recall here instead of time warp, but it all comes down to a judgment call: if you can do pretty serious damage with your units use time warp, but if your opponent is already prepared with roaches/mass lings/spines, just recall. Once you have ~2-3 void rays, you can safely take a 3rd base; you don't need a lot of ground units. If he trades 30 lings for a nexus cancel, you are WAY ahead. Alternatively, you can do this same build but replace the 3rd gateway with a forge. By doing so, you forgo your gateway pressure, but you can take a third and start upgrades a lot sooner. I personally prefer the gateway pressure, but it just comes down to style. So are oracle openings the meta standard build now in PvT? Do you know of a build order guide I can follow? I've been using FFE into chargealot void ray archon build that you guys did a guide with. Pretty successful with it so far. I have yet to do a gateway opening I am wondering are gateway expands just generally better to do against PVZ? What is better to do against early pools/agression? If I wanted to specifically go chargealot void ray archon is the FFE build still better to do or Gateway expand just as good? Sorry for the general questions I just want to know which one is better for me to learn and master =) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
PvZ: as i wrote in the guide, FFE vs gateway expand is stylistic. FFE is usually more structured and passive but results in better economy and faster upgrades, while gateway expand can put on midgame pressure much more easily. You can open both and go chargelot archon void. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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Maasked
United States567 Posts
I dont know his reasonings, though, I am just aware he said it on stream. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
Where is my edge in that situation, and is there something special I have to look out for (besides the fact that he gets fast +2/+2). My thought would be to get a regular 3rd Base and play super defensive (some prism harass at most), knowing that either his Army will be growing slower (CC after already delayed Starport) or his 3rd Base (if at all) will be much later (Rax 4&5 after Starport). | ||
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