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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
Italy12248 Posts
On February 18 2014 12:12 Epishade wrote:
If I know I'm clear to go Nexus first against Zerg, what supply do I build it at? What's most optimal? I usually go 17 nexus>17 forge>17 pylon>17 probe>18 gate>get gasses, but it seems like I get my nexus and forge much later and my probes get delayed for a long time at 17.
When do you take the gasses at the natural? It's when minerals are saturated at 16, right?
Is there a custom build-order tester for the current map-pool? All I know of is the one on Akilon Waste.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#1.1 the build orders are still relevant. And yeah, you will always have a brief probe cut but it's no big deal.
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On February 18 2014 18:16 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 12:12 Epishade wrote:
If I know I'm clear to go Nexus first against Zerg, what supply do I build it at? What's most optimal? I usually go 17 nexus>17 forge>17 pylon>17 probe>18 gate>get gasses, but it seems like I get my nexus and forge much later and my probes get delayed for a long time at 17.
When do you take the gasses at the natural? It's when minerals are saturated at 16, right?
Is there a custom build-order tester for the current map-pool? All I know of is the one on Akilon Waste. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#1.1 the build orders are still relevant. And yeah, you will always have a brief probe cut but it's no big deal.
15 nexus 15 forge is also quite good vs. pool first. Some zergs will build extra lings and try to run by when they see nexus first, so having the earlier cannon makes it less of a headache to deal with. Of course, the tradeoff is that your economy is slightly worse.
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Italy12248 Posts
No point cutting probes that early, you should be fine on the vast majority of maps with everything on 17. 15/15 hasn't been done at the top level in years (when we played on a generally much smaller map pool). If you wall properly and keep a probe in position to close off the gap, 17/17 is perfectly safe against basically any amount of lings he can make reactively off a 14 pool.
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On February 19 2014 01:47 Teoita wrote:
15/15 hasn't been done at the top level in years
Someone should have told Zest, who used it in every game at IEM New York a couple months ago! It's less useful in the current map pool but still works well on the smaller 2 player maps, especially Yeonsu where fully walling off can be a bit annoying.
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Italy12248 Posts
Uh interesting, i missed that.
My point stands, i feel like there's no reason to do it when 17/17 is perfectly safe. Yeonsu might be an exception because of the funky wall in more than anything, i'm not sure.
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Are the OP's build orders still up to date? I'm gonna start practising a few if they are
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Italy12248 Posts
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Great! Thanks a bunch Teoita
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On February 19 2014 02:03 Teoita wrote:
Uh interesting, i missed that.
My point stands, i feel like there's no reason to do it when 17/17 is perfectly safe. Yeonsu might be an exception because of the funky wall in more than anything, i'm not sure.
Oh of course, I wasn't dismissing 17/17 at all. The page you linked to made no mention of 15/15 so I brought it up because it does have its uses. It stands to reason that if you can get away with it, 17/17 is a better choice than 15/15. It's nice being able to deflect lings without delaying your gas, though, which is the main advantage 15/15 offers.
On February 19 2014 02:54 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 02:03 Teoita wrote:
Uh interesting, i missed that.
My point stands, i feel like there's no reason to do it when 17/17 is perfectly safe. Yeonsu might be an exception because of the funky wall in more than anything, i'm not sure. hmm rain did a 15/15 on alterzim at iem cologne this weekend. was game 2 vs hyun.
That was 15 nexus 15 gateway, which is a fantastic build on 4 player maps. I haven't yet faced 6 pool with it, but it can hold a 9 pool on Frost.
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On February 19 2014 02:03 Teoita wrote:
Uh interesting, i missed that.
My point stands, i feel like there's no reason to do it when 17/17 is perfectly safe. Yeonsu might be an exception because of the funky wall in more than anything, i'm not sure.
hmm rain did a 15/15 on alterzim at iem cologne this weekend. was game 2 vs hyun. I feel like if your going stargate on a massive map though, the 15/15 seems safer considering the late scout.
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Italy12248 Posts
Oh fcking progamers, i stop paying attention to their openings and they start pulling out the vintage builds xD
My bad!
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In PvP, why isn't any progamers going 2 base Void Ray? I know if it was double stargate you would counter it with +1 blink timings but what do you think is best if they go immortal/voidray? Would you just go chargelot/stalker?
Stalker is the best way to deal with void ray play on 2-3 bases right? I never have enough gas to make the archon count.
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Italy12248 Posts
On 2 bases you should be able to afford enough stalkers and a couple of archons. After taking a third you can also go storm, which pretty much destroys void rays. This is also the reason why you dont see heavy void ray builds at the pro level: they just get destroyed by storm/archon/zealot/stalker.
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On February 18 2014 12:12 Epishade wrote:
If I know I'm clear to go Nexus first against Zerg, what supply do I build it at? What's most optimal? I usually go 17 nexus>17 forge>17 pylon>17 probe>18 gate>get gasses, but it seems like I get my nexus and forge much later and my probes get delayed for a long time at 17.
When do you take the gasses at the natural? It's when minerals are saturated at 16, right?
Is there a custom build-order tester for the current map-pool? All I know of is the one on Akilon Waste.
Safe Nexus First
+ Show Spoiler +There are different versions of this build as you've probably already noticed. A lot of players haven't been mixing it up lately, but there's a relatively safe Nexus first build that Rain was doing last year. The reason I say relatively safe is because some other builds, such as 17 nexus with early scouting, end up with an unfinished cannon (i.e. barely unfinished) by the time lings arrive at your wall. So if you don't want to worry much about pylon blocking your wall to let your cannon finish, this is a nice build. Actually, I'm not even sure on what maps you can block your wall with a single pylon anymore, I haven't been playing much and most of my PvZ nowadays is gateway expand. You can also go 17 Nexus if you don't mind the slightly delayed cannon though.
2x chrono probes
16 Nexus --> 16 Forge
1x chrono 2 probe
18 Pylon --> 18 gate --> 18 cannon (basically your pylon finishes right after you start your cannon)
Gas timings at main, as you've already noticed, is right after you complete your wall. But chrono probes nonstop and don't cut probes to get these 2 geysers, that's bad. At your natural, the most standard timing for double gas when going Nexus first is at about 5:40-6:00. Basically, take them as soon as resources allow without cutting probes. It's about the same time you will get a tech build, which is a stargate in most cases.
Greedy Nexus First
+ Show Spoiler +As for the greediest nexus first (into forge) build that I do:
Skip scouting
3x chrono probes
17 Nexus --> 17 Pylon --> 17 Forge
Then chrono boost probes nonstop and get a gateway and a cannon as your forge finishes without cutting probes. This delays your cannon considerably, so it's a good idea to leave a probe at your wall, but even if you need to pylon block it, your main will have optimal gas and mineral saturation by the time your natural finishes, which is totally worth it. You can scout the zerg's third right after starting your cannon if you want. Needless to say, this build isn't safe against early pools, so there's no point in getting angry if your opponent happens to blind counter you. Some people do other greedy versions of Nexus First, like Nexus First into gateway without a forge and relying on a zealot for defense in order to get double gas earlier... but I don't know much about that, so I won't say anything.
^ This build is VERY economical and makes it much easier to defend a fast third in the midgame if you're going voidray zealot templar (you get your extra gateways much earlier because of the econ boost).
Nexus First vs Hatch First
+ Show Spoiler +Another thing you can do when going nexus first is cut a lot of corners if you scout hatch first. You can easily do something similar to the greedy build I mentioned above, while chronoing probes nonstop. You can do something like this:
17 Nexus --> 17 Pylon --> 17 gate --> 2x gas --> forge (...)
You can basically delay your cannon for quite a while or skip it altogether and just leave a zealot at your wall, but I'd say make the cannon at one point for safety against stuff such as speedlings.
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Assuming Z attempts to 15 hatch and you pylon block his natural, is more viable to let the pylon finish or cancel at the last second?
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United States4883 Posts
On February 20 2014 02:37 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Assuming Z attempts to 15 hatch and you pylon block his natural, is more viable to let the pylon finish or cancel at the last second?
Depends on what you're doing and which map. I personally always let it finish, but you usually have to block with a gateway to stop the initial lings from getting in your natural. Even though your nexus is a little late, the Zerg HAS to make at least 4 lings and HAS to spend time killing off the pylon, so it limits the Zerg's greediness some.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 20 2014 02:51 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 02:37 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Assuming Z attempts to 15 hatch and you pylon block his natural, is more viable to let the pylon finish or cancel at the last second? Depends on what you're doing and which map. I personally always let it finish, but you usually have to block with a gateway to stop the initial lings from getting in your natural. Even though your nexus is a little late, the Zerg HAS to make at least 4 lings and HAS to spend time killing off the pylon, so it limits the Zerg's greediness some.
I've found that zergs will often just take a third if they see you going for a FFE of some kind (the overlord will often be there to see your natural) instead, and not make the lings. So if I'm going for a FFE, I usually cancel and send the probe back in to micro some more. If I'm gateway expanding, yeah, I'd usually let it finish.
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On February 20 2014 02:56 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 02:51 SC2John wrote:On February 20 2014 02:37 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Assuming Z attempts to 15 hatch and you pylon block his natural, is more viable to let the pylon finish or cancel at the last second? Depends on what you're doing and which map. I personally always let it finish, but you usually have to block with a gateway to stop the initial lings from getting in your natural. Even though your nexus is a little late, the Zerg HAS to make at least 4 lings and HAS to spend time killing off the pylon, so it limits the Zerg's greediness some. I've found that zergs will often just take a third if they see you going for a FFE of some kind (the overlord will often be there to see your natural) instead, and not make the lings. So if I'm going for a FFE, I usually cancel and send the probe back in to micro some more. If I'm gateway expanding, yeah, I'd usually let it finish.
As a zerg player, if I see a toss FFE, I immediately react to your build by taking a third. This is the safest option for us, but I would encourage lower-league toss players to take advantage of this and try to cannon the third/natural, but do not over-commit to this.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Hey, wanting to learn some Protoss builds, I was wondering if anyone has a write-up of PartinG's immortal/sentry all in that he showcased recently in Proleague on Yeonsu? (I can't remember the name of the Zerg ;_;)
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United States4883 Posts
On February 20 2014 05:54 mau5mat wrote:
Hey, wanting to learn some Protoss builds, I was wondering if anyone has a write-up of PartinG's immortal/sentry all in that he showcased recently in Proleague on Yeonsu? (I can't remember the name of the Zerg ;_;)
I'm pretty sure that was the old immortal/sentry allin, just with a gateway opener. I'll check though.
EDIT: Holy shit, wtf is this build lol. This looks like another one of PartinG's perfect optimization of a build that runs something like this:
1) nexus first
2) skip forge, go straight for gateway
3) delay warp gate, get early MSC + sentry
4) Early natural gases (~6:30)
5) fake moveout at 8:00 with 2 immortals/6 sentries/MSC
6) immortal drop until 2-3 extra warpins, then go
It's a bit of a snipe build, tbh, but it is definitely unique. I think it's primarily designed to kill 3-hatch before pool openings.
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EPT
