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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
Looking at the first game on Yeonsu, I don't think your build was as good as it could have been. Since you didn't scout, you made an early stalker which caused your twilight to be a bit delayed. You also should have immediately made a second unit from your gateway when the stalker finished (I prefer a zealot for the second unit in this situation). After starting the dark shrine your priority should be to get more gateways asap, not build more probes. Had you made the gateways earlier you would have been massively ahead in this game, since he wouldn't be able to touch you with his warped in units and he was at least 2 minutes away from being able to expand, with a bad economy. Even with all that, you ended up ahead, which shows the strength of dts against this 3 gate.
The Habitation game is the same story. If you aren't scouted, you can just throw down the twilight as soon as the core finishes. I also highly recommend scouting yourself.
As for game 3, in my opinion slow 3 gate is the worst way to fight against this build. You end up with the same units as him, only slower, so you die as soon as the nexus cannon finishes. The 3 possible ways to fight it are: an unbeatable tech, fast units from 2 gates to shut the build down pre-warpins, or holding the ramp with sentries (very very difficult).
On February 17 2014 02:42 KingAlphard wrote:
I agree that if your opponent tries to macro after failing the 3 gate you're in a big advantage. However everytime I lost to a failed 3 gate (happened very few times) it was because they got detection and just carried on the all in. DT tech doesn't really help in winning fights against pure zealot/stalker once there is detection.
Luckily 90% of 3-gaters (at least at my level) don't even bother scouting behind your mineral line with the first units and die immediately to DTs.
I can't really comment without seeing a replay but I've never once lost to 10 gate --> 3 gate when using Dear's dt build. You can have 2 more gates started by 5:20-5:30 depending on the map, with an MSC stalker and zealot at home. If he wants to get detection he has to sacrifice his warpins, giving you enough time to catch up in army, especially with a better econ. The only way he can hurt you is by running in with his stalkers and sniping probes while tanking the nexus cannon and making a forge at home, but even then it's not a bad situation in my opinion.
This is definitely not conclusive, though, since I've only played against it with fast dts 6-7 times, and not at all in the last couple months. The NA GM cheesers have since moved on to double proxy gate stalkers, which is much harder to stop!
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first, thanks teo for the links earlier I asked about.
second, what you guys think about IEM?
hero is a boss
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Italy12248 Posts
Best sc2 tournament to date probably, but this isn't the place to discuss it.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
I'm going over HerO's IEM replays at the moment, there's definitely a ton to be learned about timing warp prism drops, defending on multiple fronts and coordinating army movements especially.
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I'm looking to hire some coaching.
I'm Masters EU Protoss and I mneed help specifically in the PvP matchup.
Anyone got any suggestions??
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Canada13431 Posts
This isn't really the place to ask for a coach. But the featured streamers are very good and pick one you enjoy watching and contact them to ask about coaching and if you gel well with them then go for it if its affordable.
Alternatively find a group of players and let chat with them and improve together.
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Hey guys, im pondering about switching to protoss. Which streams are good to learn the race? (I used to enjoy demuslim, trump and polt mostly when i played terran)
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Any replays on somebody holding the stupid cannon rushes on maps like yensu/habitation/heavy rain where they start from the low ground and you don't scout it until the probe is on the high ground? It's an auto lose for me right now, clearly don't know how to deal with it lol
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United States4883 Posts
On February 18 2014 05:47 Sif_ wrote:
Hey guys, im pondering about switching to protoss. Which streams are good to learn the race? (I used to enjoy demuslim, trump and polt mostly when i played terran)
The best Protoss streamers are probably Liquid`HerO, Grubby, and once every blue moon, Naniwa. There actually aren't a lot of top Protoss players that stream, but you can always check out the non-featured streams to catch some top masters/GM Protoss players.
MaximusBlack is NOT good to learn from lol.
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Hero sucks to learn from imo, he does the craziest shit that you never know how it works lol
IMO best ones to learn from are Minigun and Incontrol, they interact a lot with the fans about what they're thinking when they're playing and etc, sometimes incontrol will ever analyze replays on stream
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On February 18 2014 06:21 ffadicted wrote:
Any replays on somebody holding the stupid cannon rushes on maps like yensu/habitation/heavy rain where they start from the low ground and you don't scout it until the probe is on the high ground? It's an auto lose for me right now, clearly don't know how to deal with it lol
Honestly just scout that section of your base from inside you main after placing down your gateway, and always simcity where your gateways or essential buildings aren't going to be getting taken out before you can set up a defense. And it's always nice to send 1 zealot to their main and start killing off probes if possible. I'm sure you can watch your own replays and look at the timings of when it's happening and figure out a good defense strategy. You can even scout that little part of the map after placing your first pylon if you really feel paranoid, but after your Gate you should be fine. Don't be afraid to pull probes.
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On February 18 2014 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
Hero sucks to learn from imo, he does the craziest shit that you never know how it works lol
IMO best ones to learn from are Minigun and Incontrol, they interact a lot with the fans about what they're thinking when they're playing and etc, sometimes incontrol will ever analyze replays on stream
Ya Minigun probably streams the most and interacts the most with his fans, has cool subscriber tournaments and offers coaching. puCK is also a really good about interacting with viewers and giving analysis while he's playing, also offers coaching as well. Those are probably the main 2. CranK every once in awhile as well.
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On February 18 2014 05:47 Sif_ wrote:
Hey guys, im pondering about switching to protoss. Which streams are good to learn the race? (I used to enjoy demuslim, trump and polt mostly when i played terran)
Crank's stream is pretty good. He also answers questions about strategy and hardly ignores what people, which is really unusal among high level korean players (and foreigners too). Tails streams every now and then. He does some pretty weird stuff, but his stream is great if you're looking for new ideas and interesting build orders. Naniwa's stream is really awesome for learning, though he almost never streams and answers very few questions. He did answer one of my questions once, which was rather surprising, but that's pretty unusual of him.
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United States4883 Posts
Thanks for all the backup, guys, I forgot about those streamers.
Minigun
puCK
Crank
HerO
Tails
Incontrol
Grubby
NonY
While HerO's ladder play may be a little strange at times, his mechanics are miles ahead of a lot of the other Protoss streamers, so you can still get a lot from just watching THE WAY he plays. Also, I find Incontrol's stream to be fairly good, not because Incontrol is a great player, but because he naturally provokes some thinking about the game.
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Italy12248 Posts
Also my mancrush Nony is analizing IEM games right now on his stream. It's pretty sexy.
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On February 18 2014 08:59 Teoita wrote:
Also my mancrush Nony is analizing IEM games right now on his stream. It's pretty sexy.
Oh ya can't forget about NoNy the boss!
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If I know I'm clear to go Nexus first against Zerg, what supply do I build it at? What's most optimal? I usually go 17 nexus>17 forge>17 pylon>17 probe>18 gate>get gasses, but it seems like I get my nexus and forge much later and my probes get delayed for a long time at 17.
When do you take the gasses at the natural? It's when minerals are saturated at 16, right?
Is there a custom build-order tester for the current map-pool? All I know of is the one on Akilon Waste.
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On February 18 2014 07:10 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 06:21 ffadicted wrote:
Any replays on somebody holding the stupid cannon rushes on maps like yensu/habitation/heavy rain where they start from the low ground and you don't scout it until the probe is on the high ground? It's an auto lose for me right now, clearly don't know how to deal with it lol Honestly just scout that section of your base from inside you main after placing down your gateway, and always simcity where your gateways or essential buildings aren't going to be getting taken out before you can set up a defense. And it's always nice to send 1 zealot to their main and start killing off probes if possible. I'm sure you can watch your own replays and look at the timings of when it's happening and figure out a good defense strategy. You can even scout that little part of the map after placing your first pylon if you really feel paranoid, but after your Gate you should be fine. Don't be afraid to pull probes.
This is really vague advice tbh, which doesn't really address how to actually counter the cannon rush (sending a zealot across the map will never do any damage against the standard yeonsu cannon rush), and pulling probes usually ends in disaster if you're playing against the low ground cannon rush (this obviously varies game to game, but i'd generally advise to try to mine as much as possible. The good thing about these cannon rushes is that while they're very hard to stop, they don't deny you from mining until your nexus is dead (except habitation station). This makes the proxy stargate response that Genius showed pretty strong, and the standard stalker mothership core responses can work against these rushes (it's not a 100% auto win of course, you do need to play quite well). Quick robo into immortals has also worked for me, but i'm not sure if it's actually a good response.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 18 2014 08:59 Teoita wrote:
Also my mancrush Nony is analizing IEM games right now on his stream. It's pretty sexy.
Nony is incredibly intellectual about the game, way more so then almost anyone else. That's a great attitude to have because Protoss is slightly more reliant on your thought processes then the other races. When Nony is streaming, watch it.
His builds are non-standard often, so you might not get as much out of it in that sense as you might from watching crank etc., but he's very smart.
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Hi all, I'm a protoss player, and up until this point I've more or less just been "winging it" in my ladder games beyond the first 3 minutes or so. I've been reading about build orders that go into the mid/late game but there's way too many and I honestly don't know which ones are best to start working on. Basically what I want is one build order for every race matchup to work on and perfect. What are your suggestions?
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EPT
