EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 234
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On February 12 2014 19:56 kuruptt wrote: Thanks for the write up guys, extremely helpful. Would I still be able to follow the chargeaot void ray archon guide after a gateway expand? Whats the difference between the 2 dt build links SC2john? I am guessing the guide you wrote is more safe then the ones that the pros use? Awesome guides you guys write btw! TL protoss have the best guides out of all the races IMO =D In the 2 builds for DT offered by SC2John, the differences are in a way related to scouting. IMO the economic option is better because if your goal is to get to a 2 or 3 base charge archon style then you do want a natural eventually. The DT rush skipping first stalker is vulnerable to 2 gate openings (3 stalker rush) and also to aggressive builds and (proxy especially) oracle play because you cut the early stalker. You aren't able to scout as well around your base or deny the probe scout as easily of your opponent. Also because you core scout to make the timings work you on a lot of maps will be blindly going very fast twilight skipping the first stalker. You shouldnt be seeing a 1 gate vs 2 gate tech opener with the core scout in time to decide whether you skip the stalker or not. So IMO while the super fast DTs are better than the eco DTs vs 1 gate tech openers, the lack of information to make that decision is something I don't like personally and I also prefer the on my side of the map map control that getting the stalker before the twilight offers. Hope that helps! :D As for learning how to defend things: its tough but it will take time. For example vs a 3 gate you don't change your build at all for eco DTs. Hitting the timings lets you defend well enough just make sure you dont underpower your stuff and keep it all within range of the overcharge ability vs 3 gate builds. Against 4 gate, you want to get 2 extra gateways and skip the robo while chrono stalkers in the eco DTs build. Because DTs wont kill them quick enough if they do a dedicated 4 gate and you will end up losing a base trade if they micro stalkers properly (or if their proxy pylon probe is alive and they save for a robo at the proxy) and you go robo (immortals take too long to build and too few units from 2 gates anyway). Alternatively I've seen Dear get 2 extra gates and a robo but I don't really face 4 gate enough to try that and he does it vs very aggressive one base build before expanding but not v 4 gate builds. DTs will put a timer on a super fast 3 or 4 gate but do worse vs 4 gate because of fewer units, basically the goal is to avoid trading units until you can get one dt out with 3 gates up. In that scenario the DT dps will help a lot and they cant micro vs the DT and vs your own stalkers. If you warp in a DT to get to their min line too early, you will actually lose because you need the dps in your main and 2 dts is a lot of cooldown on the gateway on one round meaning their trades will always be better. Also time your overcharge not to zone them out but to punish them committing to attacking you, so dont do it unless they are well within range of the overcharge. If you overcharge too early you dont buy enough time for the DTs to finish and they can trade vs your army too well for about 10-20 seconds if well controlled before your stuff is all up. Building away from the ramp is a good way to also avoid losing production so try to tuck stuff away from the ramp when doing the DT opener  Keep in mind though if they do a Robo opening you need to be very careful about your scouting. Assuming the DTs dont get in (you lose one for example) and do no damage then you can lose to a one collossus 2 immortal 6 or 7 gate unit follow up, so dont play ultra greedy if you dont do damage. If you lose the DT you are in a terrible spot, if it doesn't die then you have map control so either use that one DT to look for any proxies all over the map if cross or a 2p map, and on the player half of map on frost. You can also opt for a quick warp prism and drop a DT in the main warp another in towards the nat and wait for the DT in the main to be chased out, or for the army to move towards the main before moving in the 2nd DT. Most players only make one observer for their base, and if they DO make second its at your base not in their nat. This will force either cannons or more obs slow them down. Minerals before the 2 bases are fully saturated will hurt them and observers are important gas that could go into tech and also robo build time delaying any quick push they might do. | ||
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ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
 recently, I'm in platinum league and I seem to be getting crushed by simple timing attacks that are really potent. I've been doing just a straight up Gateway Expand into either Robo tech into Colossus or double forge chargelot/archon into templar/storm. I think part of my problem is that I either get slowly picked apart by drops and little harrass until the big push comes, or I just straight up can't hold the push. I noticed it was mainly on maps like Polar Night, or Daedalus Point where there's quite a bit of open space for drops and Nexus snipes. But also I can't ever seem to do any harassment to keep the Terran pinned back or slow them down. So I was wondering, is Oracle really the only way to accomplish this? I haven't really been opening Stargate so that could be my problem. But there has to be other ways I can accomplish some harassment in this matchup that I just haven't figured out yet. Any tips? I know it really depends on what build/timing the Terran is going for but I guess I'm just sort of wondering in a general sort of way. Thanks. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On February 13 2014 14:01 ArTiFaKs wrote: Hey guys, so I've been having trouble with PvT recently, I'm in platinum league and I seem to be getting crushed by simple timing attacks that are really potent. I've been doing just a straight up Gateway Expand into either Robo tech into Colossus or double forge chargelot/archon into templar/storm. I think part of my problem is that I either get slowly picked apart by drops and little harrass until the big push comes, or I just straight up can't hold the push. I noticed it was mainly on maps like Polar Night, or Daedalus Point where there's quite a bit of open space for drops and Nexus snipes. But also I can't ever seem to do any harassment to keep the Terran pinned back or slow them down. So I was wondering, is Oracle really the only way to accomplish this? I haven't really been opening Stargate so that could be my problem. But there has to be other ways I can accomplish some harassment in this matchup that I just haven't figured out yet. Any tips? I know it really depends on what build/timing the Terran is going for but I guess I'm just sort of wondering in a general sort of way. Thanks. You can harass effectively with warp prism warpins, especially if you open with the charge/templar style with armor upgrades. However, harassing the terran is much less important than defending your own base from the terran's harass, so that's a more pressing issue for you. In fact, I can't think of anything more important in the entire PvT matchup than defending drops. You need to use a combination of good scouting (i.e., observers seeing medivacs en route, pylons around the map) and having units in position. Splitting your army up properly is a fine art and takes practice to master. Also, good terrans actively set out to snipe obs, so it's imperative that you rebuild them and keep your vision/map awareness at a maximum. Some pros open stargate and transition into charge and storm without a robo, but I would seriously recommend avoiding this for now. It's hard to pull off and you can play PvT just as successfully with the standard 1 gate nexus robo style. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Giftmacher
Sweden6 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On February 13 2014 21:15 Giftmacher wrote: I am looking for a very safe stargate opening in PvP that through harassment should get you on even standing with your opponent economically, unless he all ins ofc. This build is old http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HerO's_2_Gate_Stargate_(vs._Protoss) but I'm wondering if it is viable still or if there is some similar variation of it because it looks very safe but maybe too safe for HoTs? Maybe its better to just open Oracle instead? Altough I find phoenix to be a little bit more robust and easy to use, some room for misstakes which is good for a diamond scrub like me There may be even better versions of that build, but the one I am using is: 3 Chronos on 11, 13, 15 9 Pylon 13 Gate (check for Proxy Gates) 15 Gas 16 Pylon (use returning Scout) 18 Core (scout opponent) 19/20 Gas 20 Gate @ 100% Core: Warpgate & Stalker, boost both (keep boosting Warpgate but save one CB for 1st Oracle) 25 Pylon @ 100% Stalker: repel enemy scout, build stargate 2 additional Stalkers 32 Pylon @ 100% Stargate: Oracle, boost once MSC with next 100 Gas 3rd Gate as soon as minerals allow 2nd Oracle with next 150 Gas, cancel if opponent went Stargate aswell Warpgate research should line up with the 2nd and 3rd Stalker finishing and thus allowing for immediate Warpins if necessary. To do so, make sure you always have enough free supply. Nothing is worse than losing against an early bust due to supply block. My first oracle checks his natural for an expansion. If none is planted I immediately warp in 2 addditional Units (usually Stalkers) and start a Robo (for Immortals that is; the 2nd Oracle gives detection in case of DTs, so the first one can harass the opponent without worries for energy restrictions). If he got an expansion its up to the further scouting of your oracle, if you want to expand aswell or try to bust him with 3 Gate + Oracle(s). | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On February 13 2014 21:15 Giftmacher wrote: I am looking for a very safe stargate opening in PvP that through harassment should get you on even standing with your opponent economically, unless he all ins ofc. This build is old http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HerO's_2_Gate_Stargate_(vs._Protoss) but I'm wondering if it is viable still or if there is some similar variation of it because it looks very safe but maybe too safe for HoTs? Maybe its better to just open Oracle instead? Altough I find phoenix to be a little bit more robust and easy to use, some room for misstakes which is good for a diamond scrub like me I'm actually starting to use that old opening again lately. In HotS, i put 3 probes in each assimilator immediately and get the mothership core too. I wouldn't say that it is too safe, after a stargate opening it can be very hard to hold 3/4 gates even with photon overcharge, because if your opponent keeps warping stalkers even void rays aren't enough. What I usually do is send a probe to xel'nagas after I started the core. That way I can identify a 3/4 gate crossing the map and I can go twilight-DT instead of stargate. You can also scout with the msc if you want to, it gives you the possibility of identifying blink immediately which is the 2nd big threat for a phoenix opener. I think phoenix opening is getting better in the current metagame, because of how dominant oracles are against everything else. Against oracle you usually get bo win, you just go up to 3 gates, keep building phoenixes and bust your opponent. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
4gate isn't relevant in modern pvp anyway (unless you play Karlsiegt but that's not the point xD). | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On February 16 2014 03:10 Teoita wrote: I disagree about 3gate builds; i feel like you can hold very easily (esp if, like Hero, you get 2 sentries as well as a msc) while your oracle or phoenixes outright destroy his mineral line. DT builds are definitely very good vs some 3gates, but against others (3gate light pressure into robo) you are actually better off with stargate imo. 4gate isn't relevant in modern pvp anyway (unless you play Karlsiegt but that's not the point xD). It isn't relevant in the metagame but it happens, so you need to have a build that can adjust to 4 gates with proper scouting. Not necessarily hold it outright. Because even with MsC a lot of the current builds will have a tough time holding a well executed 4 gate. | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
Anyways my most troubled match up is a PvP. Back in WOL this was my easiest matchup ( lol 4 gate) but now it's a lot harder. I've been doing the economic DT rush with some success. I would also like to try a 3 gate oracle. Hero seems to be opening stargate almost every PvP and I think he has the highest PvP winrate right now at 70%? Specifically this build http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingsprotoss/comments/1xkwe7/build_of_the_week_pvp_3gate_oracle/ Does this build beat a DT rush? Also what is the best way to defeat a cannon rush? I died to to it TWICE now even though I scouted it very early. How much probes should I take off my mineral line, what do i build? What is the most important thing to do when you scuot it? (I scout with my 9 probe so I see a foge getting built) I kill some of his pylons but he still gets a cannon going in my natural. What do I do? | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
On February 16 2014 14:20 Rickyvalle21 wrote: What is the proper response to the 10gate 3gate build. I just played maximusblack 3 times in a row and he 3 gated all 3 games. First game I crush him in a macro game with dt expo but then the next game I go dt expo again and he opts for forge and makes a canon in his mineral line and at my ramp and proceeds to kill me. 3rd game I go for blind defensive 3 gate and still lose. What is the most optimal build to defend vs this. Fast dark shrine is actually one of the best ways to counter the 10 gate --> 3 gate build. Your MSC will be within 5 energy of a nexus cannon when he walks into your base (his first warpin will always be at your natural due to MSC + stalker up the ramp), which buys you a full minute for the dark shrine + extra gates to finish. Even if he senses dts and gets a fast forge + cannon, you're in the lead by far, since he has to sacrifice his unit warpins to afford the defense. He'll only be on one gas with 20 probes and he can't expand until he gets an ob out, so you can do whatever you want. I dug up a couple replays with sc2gears: Replay 1 Replay 2 The most optimal build, however, is probably a fast second gateway into 3 stalkers + MSC with lots of chrono saved up. If you know the 3 gate cheese is coming, it's more or less a free win. Replay | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On February 16 2014 15:05 city42 wrote: The most optimal build, however, is probably a fast second gateway into 3 stalkers + MSC with lots of chrono saved up. If you know the 3 gate cheese is coming, it's more or less a free win. Replay Just to reinforce this point, if you're playing MaximumBlack, you should already know it's coming. Unfortunately i learnt the hard way... | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On February 16 2014 03:10 Teoita wrote: I disagree about 3gate builds; i feel like you can hold very easily (esp if, like Hero, you get 2 sentries as well as a msc) while your oracle or phoenixes outright destroy his mineral line. DT builds are definitely very good vs some 3gates, but against others (3gate light pressure into robo) you are actually better off with stargate imo. 4gate isn't relevant in modern pvp anyway (unless you play Karlsiegt but that's not the point xD). Well, the problem against 10 gate into 3 gate is that it can walk up your ramp with the 1st zealot very early and you can't chain forcefield the ramp. If a pylon goes up on the high ground it's over. You should hold 4 gate/more economic 3 gate with sentries and then ofc if you can, stargate is better as you said. However especially at lower levels it's easy to fuck up, miss a forcefield and lose the game straightaway. DTs, instead, give you instant win most of the times and you basically have to do nothing but activating photon overcharge and waiting for the dark shrine to finish. Not sure if this is the best way to go phoenixes but examinating the other options: - 1 gate stalkers: don't see how you would hold any early aggression since you can't stop your opponent from getting up the ramp and placing a pylon there; - 2 gate stalkers: this is known to be excellent against early aggression, but it delays your stargate so much that it becomes really bad against everything else. Another issue with the 1 gate zealot/sentry opening is that you can't stop MSC scout at all, although you will force the recall as soon as the phoenix pops out. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4745004 http://ggtracker.com/matches/4745018 http://ggtracker.com/matches/4745019 Chat also shows how much of a tool Maximusblack is too. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On February 16 2014 15:05 city42 wrote: Fast dark shrine is actually one of the best ways to counter the 10 gate --> 3 gate build. Your MSC will be within 5 energy of a nexus cannon when he walks into your base (his first warpin will always be at your natural due to MSC + stalker up the ramp), which buys you a full minute for the dark shrine + extra gates to finish. Even if he senses dts and gets a fast forge + cannon, you're in the lead by far, since he has to sacrifice his unit warpins to afford the defense. He'll only be on one gas with 20 probes and he can't expand until he gets an ob out, so you can do whatever you want. I dug up a couple replays with sc2gears: Replay 1 Replay 2 The most optimal build, however, is probably a fast second gateway into 3 stalkers + MSC with lots of chrono saved up. If you know the 3 gate cheese is coming, it's more or less a free win. Replay I agree that if your opponent tries to macro after failing the 3 gate you're in a big advantage. However everytime I lost to a failed 3 gate (happened very few times) it was because they got detection and just carried on the all in. DT tech doesn't really help in winning fights against pure zealot/stalker once there is detection. Luckily 90% of 3-gaters (at least at my level) don't even bother scouting behind your mineral line with the first units and die immediately to DTs. | ||
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mygodsnameiskyle
Canada33 Posts
Thanks in advance. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On February 17 2014 07:14 mygodsnameiskyle wrote: Hello, I, historically, play terran. But I haven't really had much time to play. Trying to get back into it a little and I thought it might be a good time to learn Protoss. Are there any good tips and tricks? Hot key setups? Build orders (if you have them, I really like to have benchmarks)? etc. Thanks in advance. Welcome back! Here are a few places to start as Protoss: OP of Protoss Help Me Thread, which includes some guidelines for build orders and how to open, etc.: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402753 PvT 2-base Blink allin: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435336 PvP DT openings: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430467 PvZ Man train: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414359 Basically, if you search "sc2 notes", you can pull up a plethora of Protoss builds and notes . | ||
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