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Can someone take a look at this replay and help me figure out what I could have done better: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4721303
So the major mistakes I think were going for Blink and a Stalker heavy composition after surviving the initial Reaper aggression. I think I wanted to go for a Blink attack after the Oracle, but it was just way too late. I'd have been way better off going for Charge and Templar. I freaked out, lost a Nexus, got a Robo Bay without even thinking about Colossus until the game was over :s Pretty sloppy on my part. I can't believe how long I went without any kind of splash -_-
Is there anything else you guys can pick up on that would have helped me avoid losing this game?
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How do I deal with Terrans that Float their Base to the gold at the beginning of the game?
Assuming I scouted after my 13Gate?
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On February 10 2014 23:12 Xaeldaren wrote:Can someone take a look at this replay and help me figure out what I could have done better: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4721303So the major mistakes I think were going for Blink and a Stalker heavy composition after surviving the initial Reaper aggression. I think I wanted to go for a Blink attack after the Oracle, but it was just way too late. I'd have been way better off going for Charge and Templar. I freaked out, lost a Nexus, got a Robo Bay without even thinking about Colossus until the game was over :s Pretty sloppy on my part. I can't believe how long I went without any kind of splash -_- Is there anything else you guys can pick up on that would have helped me avoid losing this game?
I think going for additional Gates (first) against Reactor-Reaper is a mistake. Producing stalkers out off of more than one gate is to expensive early on and there is no threat besides the reapers anyways. You got 5 Stalkers until Warpgate was done. The same could have been achieved with a single boosted gate. And after that a single warpin for a protective 3/3 Stalker Split + MSC would have been enough to deflect the reapers.
Therefore going for 1 Gate + Tech (and Forge) and responding by boosting out stalkers seems to be the better decision for me.
It is up to you to then either go for Oracle into Blink-Allin or something else, but the foundation seems more solid. Just be more decisive.
I am not sure what the best followup for P is. So far I go for 2 fast Oracles to put pressure back on him and see his followup and get +1/+1 before adding a Twilight and going into Chargelot/Storm, because my micro against reapers is not that good so I will lose some probes and going for twilight and +2 Armor to fast will stretch me too thin, especially if he goes for more harassment like Drops. In addition, constantly producing Stalkers early on takes its toll.
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On February 11 2014 00:53 Larsson23 wrote:
How do I deal with Terrans that Float their Base to the gold at the beginning of the game?
Assuming I scouted after my 13Gate?
I'm assuming you mean on Habitation Station?
Well, they will be slightly delayed at first, but then they will have very high mineral income. If you choose to cheese, do so very aggressively. 1 Zealot 1 Stalker 1 MsC (chrono them out) and gogogo.
Their gas will be delayed so they might attack with a lot of marines early. Just get your Photon Overcharge ready and some Zealots. You can also just get a forge and cannon them into that little area they are in... there's barely any space to build in there.
It's pretty bad in my opinion unless you allow it to happen uncontested.
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What do do vs 3 rax? I expand off 1 gas 1 gate into robo forge. I guess I should change my bo to add gates 1st instead of tech?
What's the better option, time warp or photon overcharge? Usually he just runs past my nexus to go up the ramp so i'm thinking time warp might actually be a better option.
Scouting is tricky as terran can wall-off and his attack hits before my obs gets the intel. The 2 gates that go down after robo forge aren't online for this either.
Terran moved out with 18 marines, 4 marauders, stim and concussive shells just started.
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On February 11 2014 05:41 Harreh wrote:
What do do vs 3 rax? I expand off 1 gas 1 gate into robo forge. I guess I should change my bo to add gates 1st instead of tech?
What's the better option, time warp or photon overcharge? Usually he just runs past my nexus to go up the ramp so i'm thinking time warp might actually be a better option.
Scouting is tricky as terran can wall-off and his attack hits before my obs gets the intel. The 2 gates that go down after robo forge aren't online for this either.
Terran moved out with 18 marines, 4 marauders, stim and concussive shells just started.
You need to scout it early and add gates faster. You can use MsC to scout around a bit as well as hallucinations. Sentries are your friends. You can FF your ramp and force him to fight the planetary overcharge. Zealots/Sentries/PO should hold it.
Do you mean 3 rax before expand or after? I assumed before.
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On February 11 2014 05:41 Harreh wrote:
What do do vs 3 rax? I expand off 1 gas 1 gate into robo forge. I guess I should change my bo to add gates 1st instead of tech?
What's the better option, time warp or photon overcharge? Usually he just runs past my nexus to go up the ramp so i'm thinking time warp might actually be a better option.
Scouting is tricky as terran can wall-off and his attack hits before my obs gets the intel. The 2 gates that go down after robo forge aren't online for this either.
Terran moved out with 18 marines, 4 marauders, stim and concussive shells just started.
Scout with your mothership core so you can identify this a lot faster. And then yes, you pretty much just need to use photon overcharge and sentries, warping in a lot of units to hold it. I've put down a couple of cannons at my natural to hold it off before and it worked pretty well, though i think just extra units might be the best choice. An immortals helps as well IMO, especially if u target town the marauders.
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Which of these should I be learning first: learning to use more observers more often for map vision/defending (I currently use 2 to defend for drops and 1 to scout his base/army), or learning to attack while warping in from prism/proxy pylon elsewhere for more damage?
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Yeah fast 3 rax before expand. I generally just make stalkers but I guess I might aswell add a sentry early. I'll give the msc scout a try, too.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2014 08:14 Harreh wrote:
Yeah fast 3 rax before expand. I generally just make stalkers but I guess I might aswell add a sentry early. I'll give the msc scout a try, too.
If you scout it on time and you've already built the forge, you should absolutely get a few cannons to hold at your natural. Photon overcharge plus a couple cannons and some sentries for forcefield will crush a 3 rax push, but the sentries are extremely important. Throw down your extra gates quickly and cut probe production, get a few cannons and chronoboost sentries ASAP. It all really depends on how much time you have left after you scout it.
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On February 11 2014 07:55 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Which of these should I be learning first: learning to use more observers more often for map vision/defending (I currently use 2 to defend for drops and 1 to scout his base/army), or learning to attack while warping in from prism/proxy pylon elsewhere for more damage?
It depends on the matchup usually.
Obs are the most effective vs terran because of dropships, and warping in usually is the most effective vs zerg and in PvP
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United States4883 Posts
On February 11 2014 05:41 Harreh wrote:
What do do vs 3 rax? I expand off 1 gas 1 gate into robo forge. I guess I should change my bo to add gates 1st instead of tech?
What's the better option, time warp or photon overcharge? Usually he just runs past my nexus to go up the ramp so i'm thinking time warp might actually be a better option.
Scouting is tricky as terran can wall-off and his attack hits before my obs gets the intel. The 2 gates that go down after robo forge aren't online for this either.
Terran moved out with 18 marines, 4 marauders, stim and concussive shells just started.
Just scout on 13 after gate -> stalker poke. This gives you almost all of the scouting info you could possibly need. The probe scout is designed to get in before the walloff generally finishes and allow you to scout the gas timing (gas first, early gas, late gas, or no gas). The followup stalker poke is designed to check your opponent's unit count/composition and see if there is an early CC. Generally the safest way to play is 1-gate FE -> robo -> 3 gates -> tech.
When you scout it, just get as many stalkers out as possible (you should be able to get out ~6-7 stalkers). You can also get two sentries on a map like Habitation Station and forcefield the natural ramp. Don't be afraid to pull probes at your natural. I don't think it's good to cut probes or get immortals. Just focus on getting lots of gateway units and holding your natural. If you can defeat his push, you have a tech and economy advantage and he can't really attack for the next 3-4 minutes at least.
On February 11 2014 07:55 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Which of these should I be learning first: learning to use more observers more often for map vision/defending (I currently use 2 to defend for drops and 1 to scout his base/army), or learning to attack while warping in from prism/proxy pylon elsewhere for more damage?
Learn them in whatever order you want. Generally it's easier to focus on staying alive first then learning how to do aggression later, but it all depends on what works best for you. Just remember that the most important thing is always improving the basics and your mechanics 
On February 11 2014 00:53 Larsson23 wrote:
How do I deal with Terrans that Float their Base to the gold at the beginning of the game?
Assuming I scouted after my 13Gate?
As was already said, just do an aggressive zealot/stalker/MSC poke. If they float over to the gold, their barracks (and bunker) is delayed by ~20 seconds or more, giving you plenty of opportunity to outright win the game or at least take a huge worker lead.
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Does anyone know of any current/in this meta build order dumps? Or would anyone be interested in making one with me?
I want to have a build order spreadsheet
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On February 11 2014 15:14 Maasked wrote:
Does anyone know of any current/in this meta build order dumps? Or would anyone be interested in making one with me?
I want to have a build order spreadsheet
I would also want to know this!
Recently came back yet again and looking at the recent pro korean matches it seems like in PvZ everyone is doing gateway expand only now unless they are canon rushing. Which gateway expand PvZ variation should I use? everyone seems to be using swarm hosts now so I'm guessing you can't go full airtoss anymore? I was using the chargealot/voidray/archon guide but it just gets stomped by swarm hosts unless I'm doing something wrong? Either way it seems like gateway expand is better then FFE unless canon?
I am also having trouble picking a good PvP build. I'm looking at CJ entus hero's matches and he usually goes stargate. I can't find a build order for that though. I was going an old school 3 gate blink stalker build but I am getting stomped even though I scouted everything. Which seems to be the go to build now for PvP that has the most win rate?
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ty for the input guys, I'll change my scout patterns since yes that really was the problem. I knew about this push when terran was under my ramp's obs
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what's the standard in pvp for macro right now anyone? It was dt expand when I quit playing a month ago or so
is that build order where you get 3 sentries and 2 stalkers and then expo still "okay" to do?
I've tried multiple times doing a 1 gate expo into robo and then just adding even up to 5 gates to help hold w/e all in came but against stargate.. it's just ridiculous
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United States4883 Posts
On February 11 2014 18:45 kuruptt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 15:14 Maasked wrote:
Does anyone know of any current/in this meta build order dumps? Or would anyone be interested in making one with me?
I want to have a build order spreadsheet I would also want to know this! Recently came back yet again and looking at the recent pro korean matches it seems like in PvZ everyone is doing gateway expand only now unless they are canon rushing. Which gateway expand PvZ variation should I use? everyone seems to be using swarm hosts now so I'm guessing you can't go full airtoss anymore? I was using the chargealot/voidray/archon guide but it just gets stomped by swarm hosts unless I'm doing something wrong? Either way it seems like gateway expand is better then FFE unless canon? I am also having trouble picking a good PvP build. I'm looking at CJ entus hero's matches and he usually goes stargate. I can't find a build order for that though. I was going an old school 3 gate blink stalker build but I am getting stomped even though I scouted everything. Which seems to be the go to build now for PvP that has the most win rate?
The most standard gateway expand in PVZ goes something like this:
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
18 cybernetics core
19 zealot (optional cancel)
21 nexus
21 MSC (chronoboost)
21 pylon (at natural)
**probe scout**
21 gas
24 stalker/sentry
@100% stalker/sentry -> sentry
@5:30 -> 2 gates OR 1-gate/forge
~6:00 -> add robo/twilight/stargate
From here you can choose any tech path you want. If you build an early zealot, scout with the zealot instead of a probe; the only purpose of this scout is to check for the timing of the third base. With this build, you can get a sentry and a solid wall at your natural on most maps by 5:30, which is about the earliest zergling speed will be finished for most all-ins. Sometimes players will also cut the first gas unit (stalker/sentry) for faster tech (to get faster DTs or oracles, for instance), but this outline is the safest version. If you get 3 gates, all of them will finish just as warp gate finishes allowing you a 3-gate pressure timing .
As for PvP, the most successful builds out there right now are DT builds, 3-gate/oracle pressure, early 3-gate pressure into tech, and robo expands. Here are some DT builds as well as A fairly safe robo expand. 3-gate pressure is simply poking with your first 3 stalkers -> 6:00 warp gate pressure; based on your aggressive pokes, you can make some deductions of what your opponent is doing and get the proper tech to counter it. 3-gate/oracle is simply first stalker -> stargate -> 3 gates. The first oracle/phoenix generally does the initial scouting (~6:30) but you can also poke with your initial stalkers like the 3-gate pressure; all in all, this is a very powerful build against a fast expand.
On February 11 2014 23:28 shivver wrote:
what's the standard in pvp for macro right now anyone? It was dt expand when I quit playing a month ago or so
is that build order where you get 3 sentries and 2 stalkers and then expo still "okay" to do?
I've tried multiple times doing a 1 gate expo into robo and then just adding even up to 5 gates to help hold w/e all in came but against stargate.. it's just ridiculous
^ See above. The problem is that PvP is very coinflippy due to the exaggerated strengths of builds in HotS: blink all-ins come faster than ever, stargate openings deal even more damage than ever, robo expands are more economical than ever, DTs come faster than ever as well, etc., etc. For ladder, I suggest just sticking with a fairly safe and stable build (like 1-gate or 2-gate FE and DT expands) and just accept that sometimes you'll end up pretty far behind your opponent.
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Italy12246 Posts
You can also do a 3gate poke into oracle as a variation on 3gate/stargate builds. Good way to practice stalker micro and multitasking (send oracle to mineral line, pressure his front with stalkers).
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Canada13379 Posts
On February 12 2014 01:49 Teoita wrote:
You can also do a 3gate poke into oracle as a variation on 3gate/stargate builds. Good way to practice stalker micro and multitasking (send oracle to mineral line, pressure his front with stalkers).
this often wins outright as well.
Though be careful when you push into the opponent, if you notice only two stalkers and nothing else and your opponent relies on overcharge to defend, chances are you are playing vs a DT opener of some sort. In which case you should leave the oracle back home for detection.
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Thanks for the write up guys, extremely helpful.
Would I still be able to follow the chargeaot void ray archon guide after a gateway expand?
Whats the difference between the 2 dt build links SC2john? I am guessing the guide you wrote is more safe then the ones that the pros use? Awesome guides you guys write btw! TL protoss have the best guides out of all the races IMO =D
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EPT
