Actually, a lot of players are going 15h16p17g now, contrary to what I wrote in the post above. Either one works though!
Forgive my ignorance, but why do i need 6 queens? Are they for defending hellions?
allows u to be safe against helions and 4 queens for fast creep spread.
On September 10 2014 10:18 phfantunes wrote: I'm a horrible player, but I read somewhere it's due to 3 reaper openings.
6 is the generally accepted number of queens to defend against reapers, hellions, and banshees, yes. That's 2 on your main and natural hatch, and then 3-4 spreading creep and deflecting the hellions and banshees. Once my 3rd hatchery completes, I usually just tack a queen there and then just continue spreading creep with 3 queens.
On September 10 2014 04:17 Yonnua wrote: What composition should I be using ZvT against bio? It seems like Ling/Bling/Muta trades really inefficiently against bio (or 4m) as long as the terran player can split reasonably well. Is it simply a matter of creep spread or should I be using other units? In the late game, Ultralisks help but die pretty quickly to kiting.
Also, if it is an issue of creep spread, how do I put on aggression near to the terran base?
Thanks!
Muta/ling/bling is a solid composition. Your problem is probably somewhere between missing injects, spending larva, and spreading creep well. In my opinion, just focus really really hard on these aspects and all levels of your gameplay will improve drastically without having to resort to "alternative strategies" or gimmicks in order to win.
As far as putting pressure onto the Terran, you should just avoid it entirely unless it's in the form of mutalisk harass or ling/bane runbys. The only time where it's fairly acceptable to attack the Terran head-on at his base is after you've cleaned up one of his armies and you didn't lose too much. Otherwise, just focus on taking more bases, spreading more creep, and doing your best to keep the Terran pinned back with minor harassment.
On September 09 2014 12:03 GGzerG wrote:
On September 03 2014 10:11 SC2John wrote:
On September 03 2014 08:07 brickrd wrote: unless youre opening gasless in zvt or snute's late gas i dont see how you can afford double queens on 32, youre cutting too many drones and you dont need to do that to deal with medium hellion pressure and for heavy pressure you can just get a spine and a wall
+1. If you're opening hatch -> gas -> pool, you want to be producing queens one at a time out of your natural hatch until you get to 6 total. You'll have 3 queens to secure your 3rd at 6:30. That, combined with a well placed spine, a few lings, and an evo wall, you should be fine.
And in the words of KawwaiRice: "If the Terran is going for ANYTHING other than 6 hellions into bio, it's terrible because their production just starts too late." In other words, if you defend the suicidal hellions, you can just reactively baneling bust with 100% positive results. See: Snute.
Can you elaborate a little on what you mean here? You mean pre emptively opening an early gas / speedlings and if the terran is over comitting with more than 6 hellions / anything early on, speedling baneling should be able to overwhelm him if you can actually surround / kill 6+ hellions, potentially with reapers, and ect . ( other units ) ? Sounds risky .....
The most common opening in ZvT is hatch -> pool -> gas for an early ling speed, then you pull units of the geyser, right? So when you take your 3rd, build a spine crawler and ~12 lings (you'll be at full 2-base saturation anyway before your third can complete). These things combined with your queens will deflect most NORMAL pressure. If, for whatever reason, your opponent loses his hellions (whether you get a particularly good surround on purpose, if he goes suicidal, whatever), it's actually very safe to reactively baneling bust, especially if your opponent made more than 6 hellions, as his barracks infrastructure is super late. This is why >6 hellions into bio is particularly dangerous.
If your opponent is going balls to the walls hellions, it's most likely mech and you need a roach warren anyway; I wouldn't recommend trying to surround 12 hellions with lings. Ever.
I realize I said hatch -> gas -> pool in that post earlier, and that was a bit of a slip-up. I meant to say hatch -> pool -> gas, so perhaps that's where the confusion is coming from as well.
Can you point me to a replay on this build? I have been watching IEM and WCS and they either go 4 queen build or fast ling speed into a fast 3rd with 3 queens.
Ah, that's interesting. I hadn't noticed the minor swap that pros are doing these days. Basically, what we're seeing pros do is, instead of producing queens one at a time out of the natural hatchery up to 6 queens, we're seeing players delay the 4th queen in favor of a faster 3rd base then catching up by building 2 queens at a time to follow up.
It's fair to say that my ZvT opening is A LITTLE BIT out of date. Either way, though, it's a fairly minor change, just a small swap in the order of queen/hatchery. If you look at older Jaedong games from earlier this year, that's the build he uses in almost all of his games.
I'm a gold player and during EU placement matches I got paired with a couple high platinum guys. If anyone is feeling generous and would like to take a quick peek at this replay and pinpoint some glaring flaws that jump out I'd really appreciate it. I had a blast playing this match: http://drop.sc/385959.
Anyway, my actual question is: vs Mech terran should I go for Ultras or Broodlords or another composition?
On September 12 2014 07:50 phfantunes wrote: I'm a gold player and during EU placement matches I got paired with a couple high platinum guys. If anyone is feeling generous and would like to take a quick peek at this replay and pinpoint some glaring flaws that jump out I'd really appreciate it. I had a blast playing this match: http://drop.sc/385959.
Anyway, my actual question is: vs Mech terran should I go for Ultras or Broodlords or another composition?
to make it short to beat mech Swarmhosts: to prevent tanks from advancing Mutalisks: to abuse immobility of mech and harass before terran gets enough missle turrets and thors. Also denying bases (4th/5th) is CRUCIAL to prevent mass ravens.
eventually you'll need vipers and some corruptors once ravens come out.
don't bother making broodlords/ultras vs mech unless u are doing some sort of timing, its a good way to lose a game.
OK I posted about creep spread in ZvZ but it seems I am just completely lost as to what to do in ZvZ.
If I can force a roachvroach fight i can usually out-macro people in my league (plat) and win but in any early game scenario I seem to blunder something important but I can't figure out what.
I am at work and didn't upload my games I played beforehand (that really made me feel this way about my zvz as I've been on a bit of a tear lately) but if someone would be super cool and check out some of my losing recent ZvZs and give me tips on why I suck so bad, that'd be great.
On September 12 2014 07:50 phfantunes wrote: I'm a gold player and during EU placement matches I got paired with a couple high platinum guys. If anyone is feeling generous and would like to take a quick peek at this replay and pinpoint some glaring flaws that jump out I'd really appreciate it. I had a blast playing this match: http://drop.sc/385959.
Anyway, my actual question is: vs Mech terran should I go for Ultras or Broodlords or another composition?
to make it short to beat mech Swarmhosts: to prevent tanks from advancing Mutalisks: to abuse immobility of mech and harass before terran gets enough missle turrets and thors. Also denying bases (4th/5th) is CRUCIAL to prevent mass ravens.
eventually you'll need vipers and some corruptors once ravens come out.
don't bother making broodlords/ultras vs mech unless u are doing some sort of timing, its a good way to lose a game.
Thank you! I just lost again to mass raven.
If you look away for one second you lose your entire mutalisk flock to a couple of volleys from Thor. Really frustrating.
On September 12 2014 07:50 phfantunes wrote: I'm a gold player and during EU placement matches I got paired with a couple high platinum guys. If anyone is feeling generous and would like to take a quick peek at this replay and pinpoint some glaring flaws that jump out I'd really appreciate it. I had a blast playing this match: http://drop.sc/385959.
Anyway, my actual question is: vs Mech terran should I go for Ultras or Broodlords or another composition?
to make it short to beat mech Swarmhosts: to prevent tanks from advancing Mutalisks: to abuse immobility of mech and harass before terran gets enough missle turrets and thors. Also denying bases (4th/5th) is CRUCIAL to prevent mass ravens.
eventually you'll need vipers and some corruptors once ravens come out.
don't bother making broodlords/ultras vs mech unless u are doing some sort of timing, its a good way to lose a game.
Thank you! I just lost again to mass raven.
If you look away for one second you lose your entire mutalisk flock to a couple of volleys from Thor. Really frustrating.
Also, check out this post I made like 30 pages ago. I disagree with making corruptors though. Muta/SH is definitely the best long-term composition you can make against mech.
Should I make hydras to defend an immortal all in (the also called 7 gates robo) ?
I constantly lose to this all in, no matter what I do. I am not a greedy player and I just played 2 games against some guy on ladder who does the same thing in every ZvP so I knew for sure what kind of all in arrived.
Both games I stop droning after 2 bases saturated (4 gas) and a third with a few drones (40/45 in total). I tried to mass lings and roaches in the first game, trying also to kill his pylones as long as possible but died any way. I asked him what should have I done, he told me hydras.
I met the same guy the same day and went for hydras with the same amount of drones, still lost.
I am pretty lost against this so any tips would be cool (same for 7 gates blink)
On September 12 2014 19:17 Awin wrote: Simple ZvP question (diamond league) :
Should I make hydras to defend an immortal all in (the also called 7 gates robo) ?
I constantly lose to this all in, no matter what I do. I am not a greedy player and I just played 2 games against some guy on ladder who does the same thing in every ZvP so I knew for sure what kind of all in arrived.
Both games I stop droning after 2 bases saturated (4 gas) and a third with a few drones (40/45 in total). I tried to mass lings and roaches in the first game, trying also to kill his pylones as long as possible but died any way. I asked him what should have I done, he told me hydras.
I met the same guy the same day and went for hydras with the same amount of drones, still lost.
I am pretty lost against this so any tips would be cool (same for 7 gates blink)
The general rule of thumb to hold any 2 base all in is
55 drones
4 gas
mass roaches with some lings.
It is also important to provoke forcefields before the final engagement. Example: on overgrowth immortal 7 gate into your thrid is literally impossible to defend if the protoss gets to your base with all 7 or so sentries still with energy.
There are some "prolonged" all ins, smth like 5 immortals and hitting at 12 min or so. I would say hydras are needed here, but keep in mind that with the saturation above, 12 min should be enough time to be close to maxing with roaches.
On September 12 2014 07:50 phfantunes wrote: I'm a gold player and during EU placement matches I got paired with a couple high platinum guys. If anyone is feeling generous and would like to take a quick peek at this replay and pinpoint some glaring flaws that jump out I'd really appreciate it. I had a blast playing this match: http://drop.sc/385959.
Anyway, my actual question is: vs Mech terran should I go for Ultras or Broodlords or another composition?
to make it short to beat mech Swarmhosts: to prevent tanks from advancing Mutalisks: to abuse immobility of mech and harass before terran gets enough missle turrets and thors. Also denying bases (4th/5th) is CRUCIAL to prevent mass ravens.
eventually you'll need vipers and some corruptors once ravens come out.
don't bother making broodlords/ultras vs mech unless u are doing some sort of timing, its a good way to lose a game.
Thank you! I just lost again to mass raven.
If you look away for one second you lose your entire mutalisk flock to a couple of volleys from Thor. Really frustrating.
Also, check out this post I made like 30 pages ago. I disagree with making corruptors though. Muta/SH is definitely the best long-term composition you can make against mech.
It seems like it may just be the best zerg composition in all matchups.
vs Protoss as well but getting there is usually impossible vs T bio the trend is certainly going there. From what Snute shows us, 20-30 mutas with 10-20 SH is the ideal lategame comp with some banelings mixed in.
On September 12 2014 07:50 phfantunes wrote: I'm a gold player and during EU placement matches I got paired with a couple high platinum guys. If anyone is feeling generous and would like to take a quick peek at this replay and pinpoint some glaring flaws that jump out I'd really appreciate it. I had a blast playing this match: http://drop.sc/385959.
Anyway, my actual question is: vs Mech terran should I go for Ultras or Broodlords or another composition?
to make it short to beat mech Swarmhosts: to prevent tanks from advancing Mutalisks: to abuse immobility of mech and harass before terran gets enough missle turrets and thors. Also denying bases (4th/5th) is CRUCIAL to prevent mass ravens.
eventually you'll need vipers and some corruptors once ravens come out.
don't bother making broodlords/ultras vs mech unless u are doing some sort of timing, its a good way to lose a game.
Thank you! I just lost again to mass raven.
If you look away for one second you lose your entire mutalisk flock to a couple of volleys from Thor. Really frustrating.
Also, check out this post I made like 30 pages ago. I disagree with making corruptors though. Muta/SH is definitely the best long-term composition you can make against mech.
It seems like it may just be the best zerg composition in all matchups.
vs Protoss as well but getting there is usually impossible vs T bio the trend is certainly going there. From what Snute shows us, 20-30 mutas with 10-20 SH is the ideal lategame comp with some banelings mixed in.
Ehhhhhh, I'm not 100% sold on it yet. I mean, I really love those games, and Snute's SH transition is fucking brilliant and makes so much sense. But I wouldn't quite say that muta/SH/bane is the ideal composition against bio yet. We'll have to see how Terran innovate moving forward and if, indeed, the SH transition will become the new meta. It's all very new and experimental as of right now.
Can anyone give a link or advice how to micro ling banes vs MMMM. which controls group to make and how to engage mine fields? Also do you know any arcade trainer for that?
On September 14 2014 04:00 SorrowShine wrote: Can anyone give a link or advice how to micro ling banes vs MMMM. which controls group to make and how to engage mine fields? Also do you know any arcade trainer for that?
There's really no "trick" to it besides splitting well and making sure your banelings don't all connect on a thor or marauders. As far as big engagements go, I suggest looking at soO vs Flash from GSL to get a good idea of how to set that up. soO just creates a huge arc by splitting into 3-4 groups (you can leave it all on one hotkey) and then he a-moves toward the opposite side of the map; as the banelings meet the Terran army, he selects them and right-clicks through the Terran army until the banelings are "in the middle" of the Terran army or closer to the marines, then he a-moves them.
When you're being faced with a mine rally where your opponent is camping just outside your creep, only send small packs of ling/bane out at a time until you can afford to completely max out; then follow the aforementioned instructions.
In zvz for roach v roach looking for some tips for transitioning out of roaches, into hydras or infestors and macroing into 3rd base saturation into a 4th. Im in diamond and find that if you transition into hydras too quickly you lose to mass roach, and if you dont transition out of mass roach eventually you will lose to roach/hydra/infestor.
In a super late game scenario when I am on roach hydra infestor, I will lose to roach hydra infestor + 4-6 brood lords, if I make corruptors, they make ultras. How do I deal with this comp?
If I keep around 10 drones and get 1 gas on my third and attack with maxed mass roach against mass roach and dont win the game, how do i go about fully saturating my third, taking a fourth, and what to remax on after the first maxed engagement.
hello, I'm new to zerg (former protoss player, currently high diamond zerg) and zvz has me dumbfounded. I have been going for ling bane (defensive baneling nest in case of all in) into roach hydra but have been getting consistently crushed by muta/ling/bane where the banelings kill all my hydras and then the mutas clean up the rest of my army. This after containing me until I have a solid hydra count to deal with the mutas in the first place.
On September 14 2014 19:33 unit wrote: hello, I'm new to zerg (former protoss player, currently high diamond zerg) and zvz has me dumbfounded. I have been going for ling bane (defensive baneling nest in case of all in) into roach hydra but have been getting consistently crushed by muta/ling/bane where the banelings kill all my hydras and then the mutas clean up the rest of my army. This after containing me until I have a solid hydra count to deal with the mutas in the first place.
Have you been managing to get a third up? Getting a third is probably one of the most important keys to beating muta in ZvZ. If you can get a third successfully you can max out with roach/hydra/infestor. If your opponent is switching out of mutas just max out on roaches and go kill him with a 2/2 timing. If your opponent is going heavy muta/ling/bane then you have to get a few infestors, honestly one good fungle on the mutas and gg, equally one good fungle on a clump of banes and your hydras can wreck their mutas.
On September 14 2014 19:33 unit wrote: hello, I'm new to zerg (former protoss player, currently high diamond zerg) and zvz has me dumbfounded. I have been going for ling bane (defensive baneling nest in case of all in) into roach hydra but have been getting consistently crushed by muta/ling/bane where the banelings kill all my hydras and then the mutas clean up the rest of my army. This after containing me until I have a solid hydra count to deal with the mutas in the first place.
The 1-1 roach build is the go to in zvz. Lowko does a great job describing it.
Counter intuitively hydras are not what you want vs muta. When you see mutas, you actually just want to run your roaches around while makes spore crawlers at your 1st,2nd,3rd and getting infestors. Hydras are the icing on the cake.
On September 14 2014 19:33 unit wrote: hello, I'm new to zerg (former protoss player, currently high diamond zerg) and zvz has me dumbfounded. I have been going for ling bane (defensive baneling nest in case of all in) into roach hydra but have been getting consistently crushed by muta/ling/bane where the banelings kill all my hydras and then the mutas clean up the rest of my army. This after containing me until I have a solid hydra count to deal with the mutas in the first place.
Counter intuitively hydras are not what you want vs muta. When you see mutas, you actually just want to run your roaches around while makes spore crawlers at your 1st,2nd,3rd and getting infestors. Hydras are the icing on the cake.
I can tell you that this build is really awesome. Counter most speedling allin and bane allin that goes after 14pool. i just got back to the game and i have 70% WR in gold league with only 55% in ZvZ. This build helped me a lot. Won my last three ZvZ with this. Lost one but the guys 10pooled.
I'm low level (not sure i can manage diamond again with my skill) but this is a really nice build so at your level it should be even more powerfull since you can execute it better. Also you can easily transition as he said for 2/2 roach or infest.
is gasless 9pool into hatch a bad build zvz? i dont know how to do damage only committing to 6-8 lings, even against hatch first. did i make a mistake somewhere along the line thinking this was a build pros use? i keep using it because im under the impression its supposed to work against hatch first but i cant do anything with it.
On September 16 2014 14:47 brickrd wrote: is gasless 9pool into hatch a bad build zvz? i dont know how to do damage only committing to 6-8 lings, even against hatch first. did i make a mistake somewhere along the line thinking this was a build pros use? i keep using it because im under the impression its supposed to work against hatch first but i cant do anything with it.
It's really good on 3-player maps, Catallena and Merry Go Round. If your opponent goes hatch first, you should be guaranteed to get the hatchery if you focus it down, but you need 8-10 lings in order for that to happen. I usually transition into hatch -> queen, and then go gasless to catch up in economy. On maps like Catallena or Overgrowth, this is especially good since it's fairly easy to wall off.
EPT
