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United States4883 Posts
On April 11 2014 04:12 DjayEl wrote:BigJ, it is actually very helpful and now I can see all these mistakes. But, this T style is indeed a lot harder to face than regular bio  I like using Muta/SH a lot, in fact it is the only way I found to be able to defeat mech on a regular basis. This includes a mandatory mass roach push (either early on or later) so the muta/SH comp has room to set up and I can delay everything. I think I'm able to pull it of mechanically speaking, I'm not 100% sure though vs good players. It's just that after some time, I feel helpless vs all these ravens no matter what I do. Viper/corruptor/spore/SH is interesting, I tried to practice it once but never had much success with it. The static defense was just not slowing all the mech units enough like it was in ZvP (thors are not "flying" like colossi, thus being immune to both spores AND corruptors) and the SH alone just pinned down the army without being able to kill anything (even a few), and eventually all my static D gets destroyed as he leapfrogs and my corruptors dont do shit. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I don't know. Next time I'll try some infestors and see how it goes. Thank your for your time and useful analysis.
I have limited experience against this, but what I've found to be really effective is forcing the ravens to constantly spend energy. This means 1) constant expansions, especially onto his side of the map, and 2) occasionally dive-bombing the ravens/vikings then running away and forcing them to use 2-3 seeker missiles to deflect the mutas. It's okay to trade small numbers of mutas for energy + a handful of vikings because you have so much gas.
It's good to have 3-4 infestors hanging out near where your mutas are attacking to get some fungals. Even if you lose the infestors, you get off 2-3 good fungals and weaken the vikings. You goal should be to get as much nominal damage as possible done with the mutas/infestors while using the SH to prevent any major pushes. Also, I don't think you need to do roaches if you don't want to; just get a safety roach warren and roach speed just in case he does a push before you have the SH numbers you need.
Good luck! Playing against mech sucks! 
EDIT: Also, just study the hell out of HyuN vs. jjakji
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On April 11 2014 05:17 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 04:12 DjayEl wrote:BigJ, it is actually very helpful and now I can see all these mistakes. But, this T style is indeed a lot harder to face than regular bio I like using Muta/SH a lot, in fact it is the only way I found to be able to defeat mech on a regular basis. This includes a mandatory mass roach push (either early on or later) so the muta/SH comp has room to set up and I can delay everything. I think I'm able to pull it of mechanically speaking, I'm not 100% sure though vs good players. It's just that after some time, I feel helpless vs all these ravens no matter what I do. Viper/corruptor/spore/SH is interesting, I tried to practice it once but never had much success with it. The static defense was just not slowing all the mech units enough like it was in ZvP (thors are not "flying" like colossi, thus being immune to both spores AND corruptors) and the SH alone just pinned down the army without being able to kill anything (even a few), and eventually all my static D gets destroyed as he leapfrogs and my corruptors dont do shit. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I don't know. Next time I'll try some infestors and see how it goes. Thank your for your time and useful analysis. I have limited experience against this, but what I've found to be really effective is forcing the ravens to constantly spend energy. This means 1) constant expansions, especially onto his side of the map, and 2) occasionally dive-bombing the ravens/vikings then running away and forcing them to use 2-3 seeker missiles to deflect the mutas. It's okay to trade small numbers of mutas for energy + a handful of vikings because you have so much gas. It's good to have 3-4 infestors hanging out near where your mutas are attacking to get some fungals. Even if you lose the infestors, you get off 2-3 good fungals and weaken the vikings. You goal should be to get as much nominal damage as possible done with the mutas/infestors while using the SH to prevent any major pushes. Also, I don't think you need to do roaches if you don't want to; just get a safety roach warren and roach speed just in case he does a push before you have the SH numbers you need. Good luck! Playing against mech sucks! EDIT: Also, just study the hell out of HyuN vs. jjakji
Hmm dive-bombing the ravens sound like a good idea. In this game I sort of instinctively start doing this, but way too late in the game, when I knew I could not afford any more mutas. It might be good to try do to so constantly in the mid-game. But what if he constantly flies over his Thors to grant him long range protection?
I can't see the point of taking expansions near his bases, could you elaborate please ? The only thing he has to do is to bum rush some hellions/hellbats into it and its done, don't he? Or do you build mass static D to force him to move his mech army so it delays his push towards the map?
I'll definitely try the infestors though. I guess it's better than nothing
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A question for SC2John (or anyone able to answer). Is there a Zerg coach that you can recommend without breaking the bank?
+ Show Spoiler +Rand (SA currency) is pretty weak
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United States4883 Posts
On April 11 2014 12:29 Marcinko wrote:A question for SC2John (or anyone able to answer). Is there a Zerg coach that you can recommend without breaking the bank? + Show Spoiler +Rand (SA currency) is pretty weak
Uh, I'm not sure. I think Jowj (posts occasionally in here) does some coaching and PiG often does free coaching/replay analysis on his stream to boost viewers. The best thing you can do is just find some good players in the Practice Partner thread or on ladder and asking them if they'd be willing to play a few practice games with you.
You can get to GM on your own, just focusing on good practice habits and analyzing your replays, but it always helps to just have someone to talk to .
On April 11 2014 11:26 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 05:17 SC2John wrote:On April 11 2014 04:12 DjayEl wrote:BigJ, it is actually very helpful and now I can see all these mistakes. But, this T style is indeed a lot harder to face than regular bio I like using Muta/SH a lot, in fact it is the only way I found to be able to defeat mech on a regular basis. This includes a mandatory mass roach push (either early on or later) so the muta/SH comp has room to set up and I can delay everything. I think I'm able to pull it of mechanically speaking, I'm not 100% sure though vs good players. It's just that after some time, I feel helpless vs all these ravens no matter what I do. Viper/corruptor/spore/SH is interesting, I tried to practice it once but never had much success with it. The static defense was just not slowing all the mech units enough like it was in ZvP (thors are not "flying" like colossi, thus being immune to both spores AND corruptors) and the SH alone just pinned down the army without being able to kill anything (even a few), and eventually all my static D gets destroyed as he leapfrogs and my corruptors dont do shit. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I don't know. Next time I'll try some infestors and see how it goes. Thank your for your time and useful analysis. I have limited experience against this, but what I've found to be really effective is forcing the ravens to constantly spend energy. This means 1) constant expansions, especially onto his side of the map, and 2) occasionally dive-bombing the ravens/vikings then running away and forcing them to use 2-3 seeker missiles to deflect the mutas. It's okay to trade small numbers of mutas for energy + a handful of vikings because you have so much gas. It's good to have 3-4 infestors hanging out near where your mutas are attacking to get some fungals. Even if you lose the infestors, you get off 2-3 good fungals and weaken the vikings. You goal should be to get as much nominal damage as possible done with the mutas/infestors while using the SH to prevent any major pushes. Also, I don't think you need to do roaches if you don't want to; just get a safety roach warren and roach speed just in case he does a push before you have the SH numbers you need. Good luck! Playing against mech sucks! EDIT: Also, just study the hell out of HyuN vs. jjakji Hmm dive-bombing the ravens sound like a good idea. In this game I sort of instinctively start doing this, but way too late in the game, when I knew I could not afford any more mutas. It might be good to try do to so constantly in the mid-game. But what if he constantly flies over his Thors to grant him long range protection? I can't see the point of taking expansions near his bases, could you elaborate please ? The only thing he has to do is to bum rush some hellions/hellbats into it and its done, don't he? Or do you build mass static D to force him to move his mech army so it delays his push towards the map? I'll definitely try the infestors though. I guess it's better than nothing
The thors can be abused with terrain. For instance, jumping between the main and 3rd on Heavy Rain is really good for mutas. Also, you just kind of magic box into the viking cloud and fly away when seekers go down.
Against mech, mass expanding is sooooooo important because you want all the gas on the map for 1) making mutas, and 2) stealing gas away from the mech army. After 4 bases and maxed out, you generally have more minerals than you could ever spend, so you might as well just expand all over the map and mine only gas. Protect your inner (mining) bases with a handful of roaches and/or spine crawlers (walls are good here). If he tries to move his mech army to take out your extra base, a single volley of locusts will kill his expo. If he moves a strike force + the ravens to kill the base, just pick off some units (tanks) that are defending your locusts. Piece of cake. Most of the time, he'll just send ravens to spam autoturrets since that's the safest option for taking out the base; it's also a great scenario for you because it forces the ravens to spend energy .
Supply should be split something like:
80 drones
40 mutas
15 SH
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On April 11 2014 14:24 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 12:29 Marcinko wrote:A question for SC2John (or anyone able to answer). Is there a Zerg coach that you can recommend without breaking the bank? + Show Spoiler +Rand (SA currency) is pretty weak Uh, I'm not sure. I think Jowj (posts occasionally in here) does some coaching and PiG often does free coaching/replay analysis on his stream to boost viewers. The best thing you can do is just find some good players in the Practice Partner thread or on ladder and asking them if they'd be willing to play a few practice games with you. You can get to GM on your own, just focusing on good practice habits and analyzing your replays, but it always helps to just have someone to talk to .
Any advice on how to pratice then? In general, steps how to improve and what to concentrate on.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 11 2014 17:14 Marcinko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 14:24 SC2John wrote:On April 11 2014 12:29 Marcinko wrote:A question for SC2John (or anyone able to answer). Is there a Zerg coach that you can recommend without breaking the bank? + Show Spoiler +Rand (SA currency) is pretty weak Uh, I'm not sure. I think Jowj (posts occasionally in here) does some coaching and PiG often does free coaching/replay analysis on his stream to boost viewers. The best thing you can do is just find some good players in the Practice Partner thread or on ladder and asking them if they'd be willing to play a few practice games with you. You can get to GM on your own, just focusing on good practice habits and analyzing your replays, but it always helps to just have someone to talk to . Any advice on how to pratice then? In general, steps how to improve and what to concentrate on.
In order of importance:
1) Mechanics practice. It's really good to do a multi-tasking or micro trainer to warm up every practice session; I personally like Dargelein's Multitasking Trainer and the Creep Spread/Inject map. Spending 10-20 minutes on this every time before you play will significantly improve your general mechanics. Write down a list of mechanics that you want to work on (i.e. minimap awareness, mouse accuracy, spending money, never missing injects, etc.) and focus on ONE of those things each practice session. If your goal is to increase your minimap awareness, that should be forefront on your mind, even if it causes your macro to slip a little bit; over time, each area will improve as a whole and you'll be able to do everything together a lot easier. Overall, this is the biggest area to improve on and will bring you the fastest results.
2) Game Plan. You need to have a game plan in your matches. It's very common for players to just drill mechanics and YOLO their build order and strategy and then hit a brick wall in diamond/masters where their mechanics just aren't good enough. You want to actively be planning your next step every game. For instance, in ZvP my game plan is to take 3 hatcheries, tech up to lair, play an aggressive ling/hydra mid game trading as often as possible while taking a 4th and 5th and teching to hive, get ultras/vipers to deny the Protoss from comfortably taking a 4th, and add on BLords for a final push. Within that, I have very specific scouting patterns, building placements, and army movements specific to each map. Note that your game plan doesn't have to be THAT comprehensive, but it's something you should aim for.
3) Replay Analysis. Look at every replay. It's a really hard habit to get into, but it will help you improve significantly. When watching replays, you want to note things like 1) important timings for both you and your opponent, 2) whether your mechanics focus area was on track and ways you can fix that, 3) and always be LOOKING for questions. It's really easy to play a game and think something like, "Oh, I just micro'd really bad there," but you need to force yourself to ask questions.
Here are some external links that are very helpful:
How To Plan A Strategy
Playing to Win vs. Playing to Improve
A Focused Approach to Perfecting Mechanics
Analyzing Replays
How To Win Using ETA Concept
I highly recommend sticky notes! I used to have a full wall of sticky notes posted around my monitor with things like my mechanics list, build orders, general game plans, scout timings, etc. They work excellently as quick reminders and allow you quick reference when you feel lost or confused in a game. Good luck!
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For instance, in ZvP my game plan is to take 3 hatcheries, tech up to lair, play an aggressive ling/hydra mid game trading as often as possible while taking a 4th and 5th and teching to hive, get ultras/vipers to deny the Protoss from comfortably taking a 4th, and add on BLords for a final push.
Interesting
May I ask you why do you use this specific strategy and what are your approximative timings ? I'm always eager to learn something new in ZvP to better understand the matchup. Do you double upgrade lings ? Why don't you like roaches ? :p
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United States4883 Posts
On April 12 2014 06:31 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +For instance, in ZvP my game plan is to take 3 hatcheries, tech up to lair, play an aggressive ling/hydra mid game trading as often as possible while taking a 4th and 5th and teching to hive, get ultras/vipers to deny the Protoss from comfortably taking a 4th, and add on BLords for a final push. Interesting May I ask you why do you use this specific strategy and what are your approximative timings ? I'm always eager to learn something new in ZvP to better understand the matchup. Do you double upgrade lings ? Why don't you like roaches ? :p
It's still in the works, but it's a style that's kind of based on a strategy I saw Life do a while back at IEM NY (Game 2 on Akilon Wastes): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/432766-sc2-notes-lifes-transitional-play-zvp
Mixed with Jaedong's lategame in his series against Patience (G5 on Alterzim Stronghold): Jaedong vs. Patience
At the moment, I'm playing a little more defensively than Life, delaying my ling swell until ~8:00-9:00 to try and prevent the Protoss 3rd base from going down while still getting a roach warren + roach speed as a safety measure. My hydra/ling pressure usually hits around 10:30-11:00 and continues to trade mostly lings for high gas units such as sentries, immortals, and colossus. Behind this, I get my 4th base running and go up to ~80 drones while teching up to hive. I go single melee upgrade -> double ups. Depending on the Protoss's tech choice, I either go straight into ultra/viper at hive or I grab a few corruptors and infestors first. If my opponent attempts a pre-hive push, I can always flood roaches and corruptors to defend. Ultimately, my goal is to get BL/ultra/hydra/viper on ~5 bases by about 18:00-20:00 to do a big push. Depending on how the push goes, I can rebuild and go for round 2 or switch directly into mass muta.
I mostly just hate the way SH late game works, so I try to be very aggressive and kind of KO punch my opponent before then using a lot of aggression and constant trades. Once my hydra/ling pressure is unable to really get damage done (~13:00-14:00 usually), I break off and just use the hydras for defense while threatening runbys with the lings. Something I'm having some issues with is defending counter warp prism harass and voidray/colossus pre-hive pushes, but I feel like hydra/ling is much stronger against 2-base allins and applies a lot more pressure early compared to a roach/hydra mid game.
However, this build also opens up a lot of room for variance. If I go +1 ranged attack first instead of melee, I can transition into standard roach/hydra. If I put down a spire instead of an infestation pit at lair, I can instead go into a roach/hydra/corruptor allin, etc. There's a lot of room for movement and doing different transitions.
Like I said, it's still in the works. I haven't completely filled in all the gaps yet.
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United States248 Posts
On April 11 2014 12:29 Marcinko wrote:A question for SC2John (or anyone able to answer). Is there a Zerg coach that you can recommend without breaking the bank? + Show Spoiler +Rand (SA currency) is pretty weak
Heya. I do coach from time to time. You can PM me here and i'll give you Skype info if you like. Coaching has really helped me in the past (I still occasionally trade tech support for coaching with better players) just to have my own problems rephrased and keyed in on by other people in a positive environment. That being said, you definitely don't need coaching to get better if you follow the resources provided by John.
Other people who coach that I would recommend: PiG, mOOnGlade if he still does it (I know his shit's weird since he's in KR now and still working on his visa), and root zergs. Sasquatch is pretty good at distilling your problems down to an understandable level and helping you see what you need to work on, but I don't know if any of the root guys do coaching actively at the moment. PiG's contact info is usually on his stream, and you can get in touch with the rest of those guys by twitter probably.
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On April 12 2014 08:58 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 06:31 DjayEl wrote:For instance, in ZvP my game plan is to take 3 hatcheries, tech up to lair, play an aggressive ling/hydra mid game trading as often as possible while taking a 4th and 5th and teching to hive, get ultras/vipers to deny the Protoss from comfortably taking a 4th, and add on BLords for a final push. Interesting May I ask you why do you use this specific strategy and what are your approximative timings ? I'm always eager to learn something new in ZvP to better understand the matchup. Do you double upgrade lings ? Why don't you like roaches ? :p It's still in the works, but it's a style that's kind of based on a strategy I saw Life do a while back at IEM NY (Game 2 on Akilon Wastes): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/432766-sc2-notes-lifes-transitional-play-zvpMixed with Jaedong's lategame in his series against Patience (G5 on Alterzim Stronghold): Jaedong vs. PatienceAt the moment, I'm playing a little more defensively than Life, delaying my ling swell until ~8:00-9:00 to try and prevent the Protoss 3rd base from going down while still getting a roach warren + roach speed as a safety measure. My hydra/ling pressure usually hits around 10:30-11:00 and continues to trade mostly lings for high gas units such as sentries, immortals, and colossus. Behind this, I get my 4th base running and go up to ~80 drones while teching up to hive. I go single melee upgrade -> double ups. Depending on the Protoss's tech choice, I either go straight into ultra/viper at hive or I grab a few corruptors and infestors first. If my opponent attempts a pre-hive push, I can always flood roaches and corruptors to defend. Ultimately, my goal is to get BL/ultra/hydra/viper on ~5 bases by about 18:00-20:00 to do a big push. Depending on how the push goes, I can rebuild and go for round 2 or switch directly into mass muta. I mostly just hate the way SH late game works, so I try to be very aggressive and kind of KO punch my opponent before then using a lot of aggression and constant trades. Once my hydra/ling pressure is unable to really get damage done (~13:00-14:00 usually), I break off and just use the hydras for defense while threatening runbys with the lings. Something I'm having some issues with is defending counter warp prism harass and voidray/colossus pre-hive pushes, but I feel like hydra/ling is much stronger against 2-base allins and applies a lot more pressure early compared to a roach/hydra mid game. However, this build also opens up a lot of room for variance. If I go +1 ranged attack first instead of melee, I can transition into standard roach/hydra. If I put down a spire instead of an infestation pit at lair, I can instead go into a roach/hydra/corruptor allin, etc. There's a lot of room for movement and doing different transitions. Like I said, it's still in the works. I haven't completely filled in all the gaps yet.
I like the idea of using hydras to trade more efficiently vs forcefields and to defend all-ins, but when I was using them by myself I ran into 3 problems :
- 2 base colo into delayed 3rd (>10 min), implying fast colossus
- greedy 3 base play with very fast templar
- basically everything featuring chargelots, templar, archons or all the 3.
Do you have advice on this? Could you provide me with some reps of yours? I'm very interested as I try to avoid SH like crazy myself.
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On April 13 2014 04:51 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 08:58 SC2John wrote:On April 12 2014 06:31 DjayEl wrote:For instance, in ZvP my game plan is to take 3 hatcheries, tech up to lair, play an aggressive ling/hydra mid game trading as often as possible while taking a 4th and 5th and teching to hive, get ultras/vipers to deny the Protoss from comfortably taking a 4th, and add on BLords for a final push. Interesting May I ask you why do you use this specific strategy and what are your approximative timings ? I'm always eager to learn something new in ZvP to better understand the matchup. Do you double upgrade lings ? Why don't you like roaches ? :p It's still in the works, but it's a style that's kind of based on a strategy I saw Life do a while back at IEM NY (Game 2 on Akilon Wastes): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/432766-sc2-notes-lifes-transitional-play-zvpMixed with Jaedong's lategame in his series against Patience (G5 on Alterzim Stronghold): Jaedong vs. PatienceAt the moment, I'm playing a little more defensively than Life, delaying my ling swell until ~8:00-9:00 to try and prevent the Protoss 3rd base from going down while still getting a roach warren + roach speed as a safety measure. My hydra/ling pressure usually hits around 10:30-11:00 and continues to trade mostly lings for high gas units such as sentries, immortals, and colossus. Behind this, I get my 4th base running and go up to ~80 drones while teching up to hive. I go single melee upgrade -> double ups. Depending on the Protoss's tech choice, I either go straight into ultra/viper at hive or I grab a few corruptors and infestors first. If my opponent attempts a pre-hive push, I can always flood roaches and corruptors to defend. Ultimately, my goal is to get BL/ultra/hydra/viper on ~5 bases by about 18:00-20:00 to do a big push. Depending on how the push goes, I can rebuild and go for round 2 or switch directly into mass muta. I mostly just hate the way SH late game works, so I try to be very aggressive and kind of KO punch my opponent before then using a lot of aggression and constant trades. Once my hydra/ling pressure is unable to really get damage done (~13:00-14:00 usually), I break off and just use the hydras for defense while threatening runbys with the lings. Something I'm having some issues with is defending counter warp prism harass and voidray/colossus pre-hive pushes, but I feel like hydra/ling is much stronger against 2-base allins and applies a lot more pressure early compared to a roach/hydra mid game. However, this build also opens up a lot of room for variance. If I go +1 ranged attack first instead of melee, I can transition into standard roach/hydra. If I put down a spire instead of an infestation pit at lair, I can instead go into a roach/hydra/corruptor allin, etc. There's a lot of room for movement and doing different transitions. Like I said, it's still in the works. I haven't completely filled in all the gaps yet. I like the idea of using hydras to trade more efficiently vs forcefields and to defend all-ins, but when I was using them by myself I ran into 3 problems : - 2 base colo into delayed 3rd (>10 min), implying fast colossus - greedy 3 base play with very fast templar - basically everything featuring chargelots, templar, archons or all the 3. Do you have advice on this? Could you provide me with some reps of yours? I'm very interested as I try to avoid SH like crazy myself.
it's just a matter of scouting their tech in time like he said. assuming no SH, no muta switch and no melee ups, against colossus you can either go mass corruptor and try to snipe the colossus or hit a timing when protoss is on 1-2 colossus using some combination of hydra/roach/ling. either style depends very heavily on good engagements and good trades, which is, well, the reason most people just go swarm hosts into macro. a really good protoss can abuse maps very well to make you trade like garbage no matter how strong your army and your timing are. but it's not impossible. see toodming vs macsed game 2 ro16 wcs am for some really nice hydra/roach/ling positional play (including roach burrow) against a protoss third base with colossus out. it's not the 2 base colo situation you describe, but the positional play still applies to the way you'll be engaging
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On April 13 2014 04:51 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 08:58 SC2John wrote:On April 12 2014 06:31 DjayEl wrote:For instance, in ZvP my game plan is to take 3 hatcheries, tech up to lair, play an aggressive ling/hydra mid game trading as often as possible while taking a 4th and 5th and teching to hive, get ultras/vipers to deny the Protoss from comfortably taking a 4th, and add on BLords for a final push. Interesting May I ask you why do you use this specific strategy and what are your approximative timings ? I'm always eager to learn something new in ZvP to better understand the matchup. Do you double upgrade lings ? Why don't you like roaches ? :p It's still in the works, but it's a style that's kind of based on a strategy I saw Life do a while back at IEM NY (Game 2 on Akilon Wastes): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/432766-sc2-notes-lifes-transitional-play-zvpMixed with Jaedong's lategame in his series against Patience (G5 on Alterzim Stronghold): Jaedong vs. PatienceAt the moment, I'm playing a little more defensively than Life, delaying my ling swell until ~8:00-9:00 to try and prevent the Protoss 3rd base from going down while still getting a roach warren + roach speed as a safety measure. My hydra/ling pressure usually hits around 10:30-11:00 and continues to trade mostly lings for high gas units such as sentries, immortals, and colossus. Behind this, I get my 4th base running and go up to ~80 drones while teching up to hive. I go single melee upgrade -> double ups. Depending on the Protoss's tech choice, I either go straight into ultra/viper at hive or I grab a few corruptors and infestors first. If my opponent attempts a pre-hive push, I can always flood roaches and corruptors to defend. Ultimately, my goal is to get BL/ultra/hydra/viper on ~5 bases by about 18:00-20:00 to do a big push. Depending on how the push goes, I can rebuild and go for round 2 or switch directly into mass muta. I mostly just hate the way SH late game works, so I try to be very aggressive and kind of KO punch my opponent before then using a lot of aggression and constant trades. Once my hydra/ling pressure is unable to really get damage done (~13:00-14:00 usually), I break off and just use the hydras for defense while threatening runbys with the lings. Something I'm having some issues with is defending counter warp prism harass and voidray/colossus pre-hive pushes, but I feel like hydra/ling is much stronger against 2-base allins and applies a lot more pressure early compared to a roach/hydra mid game. However, this build also opens up a lot of room for variance. If I go +1 ranged attack first instead of melee, I can transition into standard roach/hydra. If I put down a spire instead of an infestation pit at lair, I can instead go into a roach/hydra/corruptor allin, etc. There's a lot of room for movement and doing different transitions. Like I said, it's still in the works. I haven't completely filled in all the gaps yet. I like the idea of using hydras to trade more efficiently vs forcefields and to defend all-ins, but when I was using them by myself I ran into 3 problems : - 2 base colo into delayed 3rd (>10 min), implying fast colossus - greedy 3 base play with very fast templar - basically everything featuring chargelots, templar, archons or all the 3. Do you have advice on this? Could you provide me with some reps of yours? I'm very interested as I try to avoid SH like crazy myself.
I think you simply shouldn't go hydralisks blindly, because of builds like that. 2base Colossus pushes are very, very powerful if you went for hydralisks. I'd recommend you to scout extremly diligently around 8mins if there might have been an early robotics (confirmed by scouting it or unconfirmed by scouting the lack of other tech), since a Protoss can do one of the following attacks with it:
Zealot/Immortal push
Sentry/Immortal push
Colossus or Colossus/Immortal push
Sentry drop
Both the sentry drop and the Zealot/Immortal push probably hit too fast for hydralisk play and any form of Colossus push is pretty decent against hydralisks.
So I'd recommend to always have a roach warren finished when your lair is finishing and only put down the hydralisk den if you can be sure that no plain early gateway attack or one of the above robo pushes is coming.
Regardless of whether you opened roach or hydralisk, it shouldn't be too hard to - add the other one if needed and - try to hit a timing window with such a composition.
Also, if it is just about avoiding SHs, Mutalisks are obviously a great choice as well, especially when you face robotics tech and no stargate tech. I think soO's build looked really great for these purposes. Though I don't know the exact BO, it's outlined roughly by:
- some standard 3base opening
- getting a quick 1-1 melee and a safety roach warren (in case of 2base attacks, maybe also to put on pressure)
- spire, infestation pit and roach speed (for safety purposes) after lair
- in case of light stargate play, go for ~6 Corruptors first and then mutas; else, probably just go mutas
not sure what he does when there is heavy stargate play, but I could see him going for a Hydra/ling timing then or infestors into hive and maybe faster ultras
The big strengths of the builds are that you can go ultras fast, because you have the melee upgrades (and a quick infestation pit) and you are very well setup for baseracing with upgraded lings. But also that unlike with roach/hydra or plain ultralisk rushes it provides you with a decent endgame plan without SHs, in the form of strong mutalisk play. At least on bigger maps that is.
Check out the GSL finals for it: g2 Habitation Station, g3 Heavy Rain, g6 Alterzim.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 13 2014 04:51 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 08:58 SC2John wrote:On April 12 2014 06:31 DjayEl wrote:For instance, in ZvP my game plan is to take 3 hatcheries, tech up to lair, play an aggressive ling/hydra mid game trading as often as possible while taking a 4th and 5th and teching to hive, get ultras/vipers to deny the Protoss from comfortably taking a 4th, and add on BLords for a final push. Interesting May I ask you why do you use this specific strategy and what are your approximative timings ? I'm always eager to learn something new in ZvP to better understand the matchup. Do you double upgrade lings ? Why don't you like roaches ? :p It's still in the works, but it's a style that's kind of based on a strategy I saw Life do a while back at IEM NY (Game 2 on Akilon Wastes): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/432766-sc2-notes-lifes-transitional-play-zvpMixed with Jaedong's lategame in his series against Patience (G5 on Alterzim Stronghold): Jaedong vs. PatienceAt the moment, I'm playing a little more defensively than Life, delaying my ling swell until ~8:00-9:00 to try and prevent the Protoss 3rd base from going down while still getting a roach warren + roach speed as a safety measure. My hydra/ling pressure usually hits around 10:30-11:00 and continues to trade mostly lings for high gas units such as sentries, immortals, and colossus. Behind this, I get my 4th base running and go up to ~80 drones while teching up to hive. I go single melee upgrade -> double ups. Depending on the Protoss's tech choice, I either go straight into ultra/viper at hive or I grab a few corruptors and infestors first. If my opponent attempts a pre-hive push, I can always flood roaches and corruptors to defend. Ultimately, my goal is to get BL/ultra/hydra/viper on ~5 bases by about 18:00-20:00 to do a big push. Depending on how the push goes, I can rebuild and go for round 2 or switch directly into mass muta. I mostly just hate the way SH late game works, so I try to be very aggressive and kind of KO punch my opponent before then using a lot of aggression and constant trades. Once my hydra/ling pressure is unable to really get damage done (~13:00-14:00 usually), I break off and just use the hydras for defense while threatening runbys with the lings. Something I'm having some issues with is defending counter warp prism harass and voidray/colossus pre-hive pushes, but I feel like hydra/ling is much stronger against 2-base allins and applies a lot more pressure early compared to a roach/hydra mid game. However, this build also opens up a lot of room for variance. If I go +1 ranged attack first instead of melee, I can transition into standard roach/hydra. If I put down a spire instead of an infestation pit at lair, I can instead go into a roach/hydra/corruptor allin, etc. There's a lot of room for movement and doing different transitions. Like I said, it's still in the works. I haven't completely filled in all the gaps yet. I like the idea of using hydras to trade more efficiently vs forcefields and to defend all-ins, but when I was using them by myself I ran into 3 problems : - 2 base colo into delayed 3rd (>10 min), implying fast colossus - greedy 3 base play with very fast templar - basically everything featuring chargelots, templar, archons or all the 3. Do you have advice on this? Could you provide me with some reps of yours? I'm very interested as I try to avoid SH like crazy myself.
Everyone else is giving pretty good advice. To be honest, I'm still rather new to Zerg, so I'm still in the process of learning and experimenting. My latest thoughts are:
1) If my opponent is going robo at 6:30-7:30, I will go hydra den/spire at lair. If my opponent is going stargate at 6:30-7:30, I will go hydra den/infestation pit. This ensures that I can get the corruptor numbers I need in time for a 2-2-2 push as well as gives me the ability to switch into mutas if I want to. Against phoenixes, I can tech up quickly to match any kind of fast third -> tech play. I'm not entirely sure how to deal with a colossus allin AFTER phoenixes, but that's pretty rare, so I'm not worrying about it at the moment.
2) Since you can't spread overlords about a phoenix opening, you can't see warp prisms incoming. This can be a big issue if you're trying to go for hydra/ling pressure and your opponent does a 4-6 zealot warpin and decimates your main. For this purpose, I like to leave 4-6 hydras in my main to spot for drops while putting down 2-3 spines at my 3rd. This is generally a fairly solid way to deal with it.
3) You can also add in a few roaches to your attack if you'd like, but generally just straight hydra/ling trades for gateway units very well. I've been experimenting with which hydra upgrade to get first as the range allows you to snipe colossus better, but you're pretty fucked if you don't trade well and can't run away. I think going for hydra speed first is the safe choice, but if you're confident in your timing, range works better.
To be honest, I'm having trouble with just about everything except phoenix/colossus and blink builds, but I'm working on getting some solid ideas down and working on it. If I discover anything big in the future, I'll try to let you know. For now, you don't want to see my replays, as I'm sitting at like 40% in top diamond hahaha; working on it!
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What I get from all of this interesting ZvP discussion (watched all the VODs) is that it all comes up to getting away with early 1-1 melee ups versus a non-2 base all-ining Protoss, as ultras are a very powerful late game addition IF they are correctly upgraded, plus you can do some nice muta/ling transitions.
In my experience it's hard to scout early enough to know if it's ok to invest early in 1-1 melee ups with and go heavy with lings or just stick with roach hydra to be safer in the mid-game (= 2 base colossus pressure) but weaker in the late game. Sound like a metagame call. Anyway, I found it hard to go for a safety warren AND getting roach speed AND 1-1 ups AND hydra range then getting enough hydras to apply decent pressure before the 12 minute mark, but it might be because my macro sucks :p
I was impressed with the Jaedong vs Patience game where JD went for a Ultra/Ling/Infestor/BL/Corru/Muta composition for almost 30 minutes and ended up winning pretty tough fights, looks like the old Infestor/BL stuff with Ultra addition has some power.
Anyway, I'll try to experiment on this and do my best to bring my ZvP ratio above the 48%, which I believe is the limiting factor that's preventing me from hitting masters
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On April 12 2014 23:10 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2014 12:29 Marcinko wrote:A question for SC2John (or anyone able to answer). Is there a Zerg coach that you can recommend without breaking the bank? + Show Spoiler +Rand (SA currency) is pretty weak Heya. I do coach from time to time. You can PM me here and i'll give you Skype info if you like. Coaching has really helped me in the past (I still occasionally trade tech support for coaching with better players) just to have my own problems rephrased and keyed in on by other people in a positive environment. That being said, you definitely don't need coaching to get better if you follow the resources provided by John. Other people who coach that I would recommend: PiG, mOOnGlade if he still does it (I know his shit's weird since he's in KR now and still working on his visa), and root zergs. Sasquatch is pretty good at distilling your problems down to an understandable level and helping you see what you need to work on, but I don't know if any of the root guys do coaching actively at the moment. PiG's contact info is usually on his stream, and you can get in touch with the rest of those guys by twitter probably.
Hey, thank you for replying. Going on leave for two weeks away from computers. I'll probably contact you when I get back.
Thank yo for all the names for coaching.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 14 2014 17:38 DjayEl wrote:What I get from all of this interesting ZvP discussion (watched all the VODs) is that it all comes up to getting away with early 1-1 melee ups versus a non-2 base all-ining Protoss, as ultras are a very powerful late game addition IF they are correctly upgraded, plus you can do some nice muta/ling transitions. In my experience it's hard to scout early enough to know if it's ok to invest early in 1-1 melee ups with and go heavy with lings or just stick with roach hydra to be safer in the mid-game (= 2 base colossus pressure) but weaker in the late game. Sound like a metagame call. Anyway, I found it hard to go for a safety warren AND getting roach speed AND 1-1 ups AND hydra range then getting enough hydras to apply decent pressure before the 12 minute mark, but it might be because my macro sucks :p I was impressed with the Jaedong vs Patience game where JD went for a Ultra/Ling/Infestor/BL/Corru/Muta composition for almost 30 minutes and ended up winning pretty tough fights, looks like the old Infestor/BL stuff with Ultra addition has some power. Anyway, I'll try to experiment on this and do my best to bring my ZvP ratio above the 48%, which I believe is the limiting factor that's preventing me from hitting masters
I only go +1 melee, no carapace -> +2/+1. If you go +1/+1 with lings, your main damage dealers need to be lings from 6:30-10:00. Also, you generally don't need a safety roach warren if you're investing that heavily into your lings (unless you scout a specific all-in like immortal/zealot or 2-2-2 or something).
My advice is to either stick to +1 attack -> lair aggression OR do +1/+1 ling pressure, starting very early and naturally transition into hydras and tech.
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Why do you research +1 melee first and not carapace ? It seems to me it's a key upgrade to counter +1 zealots, plus it applies to all other ground units. Is melee more important later on with ultras, or something like that ?
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United States4883 Posts
On April 16 2014 06:20 DjayEl wrote:
Why do you research +1 melee first and not carapace ? It seems to me it's a key upgrade to counter +1 zealots, plus it applies to all other ground units. Is melee more important later on with ultras, or something like that ?
It depends on how you're wanting to play it. Carapace allows your lings to survive longer and do more damage while attack allows your lings to do more damage while alive. I think of hydra/ling as kind of a glass cannon composition: it's not meant to survive for a really long time, it's just meant to kill stuff as quickly as possible. Lings alone will pretty much melt to +1 zealots, but the combination of the lings plus the hydras gives you a really potent force that will melt most armies. It DOES have a particular weakness to chargelot/archon, so you have to careful of that, but most of the time you're going to be trading against colossus + a few gateway units, where the armor upgrade doesn't particularly matter. The idea is to deal as much damage as possible as quickly as possible.
I'm open to being wrong about this point, but the logic makes sense to me. I simply copied what Life was doing and tried to figure out the rationale. If there's a better reason for going +1 carapace first or even double ups, I'd be interested in listening.
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You never want to go only +1 melee imo. they just melt against zealots. If you want to survive against them, either go for carapace first if you plan to go mass lings (preferably +1/+1) or go for missile and like john said, lair aggression. The carapace somewhat get nullified if you can hit and run with your roaches / hydras, but be careful with the lings as you'll need them to deal damage against stalkers / immortals only. They can also serve as meat shield for hydras, but I'd not bet too much on it.
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On a different note, anyone got any good VODs of the roach hydra vs terran post-patch? Just from messing around on the unit tester, roach hydra can battle against some of their old terran "counters" a bit better now. I know Hyun did some impressive super fast max roach timings recently but I'm more interested in roach hydra viper macro games. Any VODs would be greatly appreciated ***I didn't watch Hyun's games - only heard he made a shit ton of roaches.***
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EPT
