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United States4883 Posts
On April 17 2014 06:16 Doc Brawler wrote:On a different note, anyone got any good VODs of the roach hydra vs terran post-patch? Just from messing around on the unit tester, roach hydra can battle against some of their old terran "counters" a bit better now. I know Hyun did some impressive super fast max roach timings recently but I'm more interested in roach hydra viper macro games. Any VODs would be greatly appreciated  ***I didn't watch Hyun's games - only heard he made a shit ton of roaches.***
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445783-sc2-notes-hyuns-roach-hydra-zvt
150 supply at 10:30 . It's a great, easy build! I highly recommend learning it!
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those re-maxes are so powerful. I feel like this is what the plan for roach hydra was supposed to look at the beginning of HOTs. Too bad terran mech and sky toss are totally fucked.
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Russian Federation6 Posts
Hello everyone, quick question.
I recently started learning LYGF Lucodas ZvP (going roach/hydra/viper into mass muta switch) and had some level of success with it, but while i still learn the build i have a big trouble with instant a-moves to my base when they see the mutas and warping like 5-8 archons. If they go colossi tech i'm able to snipe the main units and finish the job with ling flood, but archons just destroy me.
Anyone who had exp. with that build have some tips on army composition? (i usually have 35-50 mutas already at the time he has archons).
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United States248 Posts
Hey torJey,
The build Lucoda teaches is fine, its basically "standard zerg with killswitch option" as the mutas. The best thing to do is just Make Roaches. They probably won't have a lot of robo tech (because you've been sniping collos/using lings to kill immortal and stalker balls etc) so the roach flood will be just fine.
Maybe a replay will help as army positioning is important in these scenarios, so if you fight and lose your first army mid map, remixing on mutas can spell your death sentence.
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Russian Federation6 Posts
Thank you, i rewatched the replay and i did indeed trade at the middle and while my mutas were in time roach remax was caught while hatching. I will work on positioning then.
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Hi everyone, talking about current ZvT openers.
Basically there is 2 main ways to do it imo, one being a pretty fast 3rd into double ups with a later lair and later ling speed with 4+ queens to defend vs reaper/hellion, and another option is to go fast speed, 3 queens and speedlings, a faster lair and a later 3rd in order to get quick mutas and go harass early.
I've found the latter option to be stronger vs mech notably, or vs any situation where fast mutas can do a lot of damage, but for some reason I keep dying to weird stuff with this like early mass hellions with blue flame or not, where I just answer by making lings, lings, lings or I just get all my drones roasted, therefore loosing all my larvae to it, or fast reaper/banshee agression where my 3 queens are just not enough and I don't get enough time to get more of those to be able to defend 3rd and I have to cancel and fall behind. Plus, I've encountered more and more early marine pushes on the ladder, old school style.
In all cases, I just feel more comfortable with double gas at 6, going for 6+ queens and mass drones, getting fast ups and late mutalisks, but that might just be because I suck and don't know how to do it well. I see a lot of pros going for fast mutas pretty much every ZvT and having good success with it, but I wonder if it is just a pro-metagame thing not so reliable on ladder, or just me sucking at doing it.
What do you guys prefer, and more generally, what do you do vs early hellion/reaper (/banshee or anything) aggression, and what do you feel is the most reliable way to open ZvT, that gives you the maximum chances of getting to the midgame in a good shape economically speaking?
And as a side question, do you feel being ahead (or at least even) in upgrades vs T is as important as before or is it just not that important?
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can you tell me what i can read from scouted gas? so what can i expect if i scout 2 gas at the nat of tos? same for terran...
thanks in advance
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United States4883 Posts
On April 22 2014 22:59 spakz wrote:
can you tell me what i can read from scouted gas? so what can i expect if i scout 2 gas at the nat of tos? same for terran...
thanks in advance
That's a very nonspecific question and really hard to answer.
But I'll give it my best go: On one base, the faster your opponent goes gas, the faster pressure will be hitting you. For instance, a reaper expand will always be putting pressure on you earlier than a CC first build, which in turn will put on more pressure earlier compared to a triple CC before gas build. This general trend is usually because buildings cost lots of minerals while most units (besides the obvious gasless ones) cost gas -> the earlier you invest in gas, the earlier you're investing in units.
On two to three bases, this trend reverses itself. Once you have the initial infrastructure set up (3gates/forge/stargate for example), you don't need any more minerals to spend on buildings. From this point, the minerals that you collect -> units while the majority of gas goes to teching (upgrades, high-tech units, add-ons, etc.). In this case, the earlier the gases are, the later the pressure is. Inversely, later gas geysers signify some kind of pressure.
Here's an example: You scout the Protoss with your first overlord and realize he's going nexus first, meaning he can't attack you anytime soon because his gas is delayed and gateways/warp gate with it (not until ~8:00, specifically). At around 7:30-8:00, you attempt to scout for tech while also checking his natural geysers. One overlord doesn't catch anything in the main base, but you see no gases at the natural at 8:00. At 8:30, still no gases, no 3rd base. Now you know for sure that a 2-base pressure/allin in incoming because he is delaying gas in favor of more gateways/units.
Terran works almost the same way, except you need to scout more thoroughly for the 3rd CC. Piece of cake.
On April 22 2014 18:00 DjayEl wrote:
Hi everyone, talking about current ZvT openers.
Basically there is 2 main ways to do it imo, one being a pretty fast 3rd into double ups with a later lair and later ling speed with 4+ queens to defend vs reaper/hellion, and another option is to go fast speed, 3 queens and speedlings, a faster lair and a later 3rd in order to get quick mutas and go harass early.
I've found the latter option to be stronger vs mech notably, or vs any situation where fast mutas can do a lot of damage, but for some reason I keep dying to weird stuff with this like early mass hellions with blue flame or not, where I just answer by making lings, lings, lings or I just get all my drones roasted, therefore loosing all my larvae to it, or fast reaper/banshee agression where my 3 queens are just not enough and I don't get enough time to get more of those to be able to defend 3rd and I have to cancel and fall behind. Plus, I've encountered more and more early marine pushes on the ladder, old school style.
In all cases, I just feel more comfortable with double gas at 6, going for 6+ queens and mass drones, getting fast ups and late mutalisks, but that might just be because I suck and don't know how to do it well. I see a lot of pros going for fast mutas pretty much every ZvT and having good success with it, but I wonder if it is just a pro-metagame thing not so reliable on ladder, or just me sucking at doing it.
What do you guys prefer, and more generally, what do you do vs early hellion/reaper (/banshee or anything) aggression, and what do you feel is the most reliable way to open ZvT, that gives you the maximum chances of getting to the midgame in a good shape economically speaking?
And as a side question, do you feel being ahead (or at least even) in upgrades vs T is as important as before or is it just not that important?
I personally go 6 queens/ling speed -> decently timed 3rd -> double ups, which is what Jaedong does most games. This particular build allows you to hold off reapers just fine, gain a little map control ~6:00-6:30 to take your 3rd, then segue into a macro-focused midgame. You can also go lair before upgrades...it amounts to about the same thing. In case you're not familiar with this build, you pull drones off of gas after speed and make queens 3-6 one at a time at your natural expansion (sometimes I make the 6th at my 3rd).
Lately I've been disliking defending reaper/hellion with ling/queen since so many people seem to love the BFH build and/or going for 8+ hellions instead of the usual 6. As a result, I'm seriously considering starting to open gasless again so that I can rely on roaches to thwart any obnoxious pressure. It also leads very nicely into HyuN's roach timing, if I so choose.
I think, unless you're more than 20 seconds behind on upgrades, you're fine. Even with lair before upgrades, you almost always have a faster +2/+2 unless the Terran does the Innovation triple CC build. If you ever get further behind on upgrades, you're either 1) playing very badly or 2) playing a losing strategy because almost no macro strategy relies on being a full set of upgrades behind all game.
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is Muta still viable in ZvZ? I see a lot of people going roach hydra now.
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On April 23 2014 12:49 Dynamitekid wrote:
is Muta still viable in ZvZ? I see a lot of people going roach hydra now.
It is viable, especially in big maps (frost, waystation, alterzim). In other maps I really like to go for roaches because I heavily dislike Muta in ZvZ (purely a personal preference). You usually transition out of muta if you face roaches because eventually their roach hydra ball will utterly destroy you. You need your own roaches (with double upgrades most often) or swarm hosts after about 10-12 mutas. Another way of doing it is by adding speedbanes to clear the hydras but if the opponent catches you doing that he'll stay in base longer and add up infestors and will pretty much destroy you unless you do god splits and he does everything wrong.
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I honestly prefer Mutas in ZvZ because I HATE roach/hydra wars. It's too delicate for me to follow and one small error in positioning can mean heavy losses. The problem I'm running into a lot now is that when I go for Mutas, I have a pretty big window for my opponent to roach bust me (which has happened numerous times -_-).
I was wondering if in ZvZ you can go for a more SH-centric army right from the beginning, like instead of making Mutas, I make SH. Would that be viable against Roach busts?
Also, how does a SH/hydra army fair against a roach/hydra army?
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I am just starting to get back into play SC2 with a more serious attitude with the goal to improve instead of just playing for giggles.
The past week I have been studying and working on ZvP. My current style mimics the Scarlett Ling Hydra midgame style and not using roaches. My gameplan is to play a passive absorbing style deflecting gateway pushes and 2 base all ins and pressuring early 3rds. Then I take control of the game with a Ling Hydra push / pressure around 12:00 to secure gasses 8-10, reset their tech unit counts, and take over map control with a transition to either my next stepping stone or my "kill switch" of mutas depending the scout and results of the hydra ling push.
My understanding of this style is almost soley based on facing FFE openers and now im looking to adapt it to also facing Gateway First expansions. I want see if i can use my same answers to protoss timings. ***I am not using "standard" 2xgas @5:30-6:00 but a 1st gas around 4:10-4:30 with 2nd and 3rd following up a few mins later***
~speedlings to deny and fight early gateway attacks.
~Speedlings to have map control to slow 2 base attacks and to deny 3rd for as long as possible
~Hydra den 100% around for big 2 base attacks (soul train, blink, etc)
~Hydra Ling push to expand and tech
I have many stepping stones and a few upgrades sprinkled in there as well. But im lost on where to set the timings for these 4 goals i have in my game plan, how do i adapt the timings from above into facing gateway timings? I have been trying to hunt down replays and games to learn the gateway first timings but i still dont have a good feel of the CORE differences between FFE and GWF but its going a little slow...
when can those evil Protoss hit me with their attacks off GWF??
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Same as above, getting serious about being good at this game. I'm switching race from Terran to Zerg because I feel very limited by it's complete reliability on micro and it's linearity in builds.
I was wondering, when should I invest in Pneumatized Carapace in TvZ and TvP? I know I need to have it around the time I get muta's but is it wise to get it earlier to scout and spread overlords?
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On April 24 2014 09:47 learning88 wrote:
I honestly prefer Mutas in ZvZ because I HATE roach/hydra wars. It's too delicate for me to follow and one small error in positioning can mean heavy losses. The problem I'm running into a lot now is that when I go for Mutas, I have a pretty big window for my opponent to roach bust me (which has happened numerous times -_-).
I was wondering if in ZvZ you can go for a more SH-centric army right from the beginning, like instead of making Mutas, I make SH. Would that be viable against Roach busts?
Also, how does a SH/hydra army fair against a roach/hydra army?
I don't play muta in ZvZ but what I know is that your mutas should not be sent immediately to the opponent. They must first deflect the roach push then go the opponent third (if undefended). You should also try to get some overlords here and there.
A very important thing is to be active with them: sniping extractors, queens, overlords while darting in and out.
SH without roaches is possibly weaker than mutas against roach busts because at the time they happen you won't have nearly enough swarmhosts to stop the push. 200/100 is not a low cost and swarmhosts aren't very efficient in small numbers. Roaches before them (or mutas) are also needed to give you map presence. Say that you go SH and manage to secure a third (which is already not a very sure thing).. how do you stop me from taking 4-5 bases and massing whatever I want? If I reach that economy I can go for crazy muta switches that you can hold BUT will stop you from evening out your economy. I can also go for broodlords etc..
SH hydra vs roach hydra fares very well if the supply is high. I would really fear banelings with that composition though.
On April 25 2014 20:02 Saechiis wrote:
Same as above, getting serious about being good at this game. I'm switching race from Terran to Zerg because I feel very limited by it's complete reliability on micro and it's linearity in builds.
I was wondering, when should I invest in Pneumatized Carapace in TvZ and TvP? I know I need to have it around the time I get muta's but is it wise to get it earlier to scout and spread overlords?
ZvT: in four player maps you can get it with the 100gas after your ground upgrades. Some get it even before and it allows you to know exactly what your opponent is doing. If you get it right after speed you can always spot crazy mass hellion builds and similar stuff.
ZvP: Against FFE I'd get it after I place my tech of choice (hydra,infestor,sh,mutas). Against gateway I am thinking of putting it right after speed but I haven't seen it much in pro games. Getting it before lair isn't bad because gateway exp can be very tricky with its builds.
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I lost twice today versus gas first reactor hellion, I scouted it both times but I'm not sure what to do versus it. First time I made lings, but without speed they got kited without doing any damage, 3 queens is just not enough DPS to deal with 4 hellions in your base at 6 mins. Do you queen block the ramp and wait for speed? Both scenarios the player expanded right after the first 2 hellions (gas pull) and kept making hellions. Do I make an ermergency wall, 4 queens?
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On April 26 2014 02:41 Saechiis wrote:
I lost twice today versus gas first reactor hellion, I scouted it both times but I'm not sure what to do versus it. First time I made lings, but without speed they got kited without doing any damage, 3 queens is just not enough DPS to deal with 4 hellions in your base at 6 mins. Do you queen block the ramp and wait for speed? Both scenarios the player expanded right after the first 2 hellions (gas pull) and kept making hellions. Do I make an ermergency wall, 4 queens?
6 queen opener + an evo wall with a spine if he keeps making hellions (past 6) works for me.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 26 2014 02:41 Saechiis wrote:
I lost twice today versus gas first reactor hellion, I scouted it both times but I'm not sure what to do versus it. First time I made lings, but without speed they got kited without doing any damage, 3 queens is just not enough DPS to deal with 4 hellions in your base at 6 mins. Do you queen block the ramp and wait for speed? Both scenarios the player expanded right after the first 2 hellions (gas pull) and kept making hellions. Do I make an ermergency wall, 4 queens?
As the poster above me pointed out, queens should be enough to deal with it. You're on the right track, just treat it like speedlings in ZvZ: queen block on the ramp, spine at the natural in range of the ramp, and just keep building queens until you can transfer drones. If your opponent makes A TON of hellions and has a really late expo, just make sure you can wall with evos.
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Hi everyone,
I could use a little general help. Below is a recent game that wasn't my best or worst, just an average game. I've been feeling like my play is really bad lately - I've just been more tired and less focused. I'm former gold, silver on new season. I know my play is bad, I know that everyone could comment negatively on every aspect of my play, but I just have one question:
If I wanted to focus on improving only one thing to make my play more effective, what would it be? Thanks!
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4967979/replay
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On April 27 2014 12:10 MonkeyBot wrote:Hi everyone, I could use a little general help. Below is a recent game that wasn't my best or worst, just an average game. I've been feeling like my play is really bad lately - I've just been more tired and less focused. I'm former gold, silver on new season. I know my play is bad, I know that everyone could comment negatively on every aspect of my play, but I just have one question: If I wanted to focus on improving only one thing to make my play more effective, what would it be? Thanks! http://ggtracker.com/matches/4967979/replay
Watched in full. I am diamond atm, formerly masters in wol.
One of the major problems I spotted is that you are always caught by surprise when he attacks, even though you spread overlords, have lings out, etc. If you want to do proper reactive zerg defense, you need to spot him the moment he moves out. If you can't fully handle that, you add a safety buffer of a few banes and some lings. Bigger buffer the worse you are--just like how you added "useless" spines against reapers. That is, ideally you wouldn't build them, but you do because you're not perfect. As you improve, you can slowly cut back.
Basically, your biggest problem seems to be awareness. You are on macro autopilot, which you do well, but if he showed up with an all-in you would've died, you're as constantly unaware as I've ever seen. Here, you win because you outmacro him by a mile, enough to pull past him despite any damage he does (barely; I think that last fight would have killed you if he really pushed).
If I had to guess, I'd wager that you die randomly in ZvZ and ZvP to timings or all-ins, but probably win most macro games due to overwhelming amounts of stuff.
Another related problem is idle larvae, you inject ok, and you macro up pretty well for your league (I'd believe it if you said you were plat), but you're not building stuff on time, and that's a big part of why you lose bases and battles. You just don't have anything to contest his army, and since you're building an army only when he's already there, you're at maybe 1/3 of the army you could have and you lose a ton of stuff. Said another way, your primary problem (encompassing the larvae thing plus the awareness thing) is not building stuff on time.
Minor issue: stop pulling drones. You seem to panic and pull them for almost anything, or at least in this game you pulled them twice for two battles that didn't require it, losing mining time in addition to a few drones. While I'm at it: never ever pull all your drones against widow mines. That was a tense moment. You can pull one or two to disarm the mines, but pulling all of them is a gift to the terran.
Let me know if you'd like more input.
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On April 26 2014 02:41 Saechiis wrote:
I lost twice today versus gas first reactor hellion, I scouted it both times but I'm not sure what to do versus it. First time I made lings, but without speed they got kited without doing any damage, 3 queens is just not enough DPS to deal with 4 hellions in your base at 6 mins. Do you queen block the ramp and wait for speed? Both scenarios the player expanded right after the first 2 hellions (gas pull) and kept making hellions. Do I make an ermergency wall, 4 queens?
One thing that helped me is using overlords out on the map to keep watch on the hellion or hellion/reaper force. This can give you enough warning to position queens properly, spot abnormally high hellion numbers, and put down emergency evos to wall. Since he is mainly building hellions-scvs-CCs, your overlords are pretty safe at that stage.
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EPT
