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United States4879 Posts
HyuN's Roach/Hydra ZvT!
I'm sure people have noticed a surprising amount of roach/hydra popping up in ZvT recently. Between PiG's recent blog post and many games by HyuN at Seatstory Cup, the year-old late WoL/early HotS strategy seems to be on the rise again. Is it the hydra buff? Have people just found new timings? I'm just going to delve into HyuN's build from Seatstory Cup, how he managed to gain tempo going into the mid game, and how it allowed him to just crush every Terran he faced.
VoDs:
HyuN vs. jjakji G2 on Frost
HyuN vs. jjakji G3 on Habitation Station
HyuN vs. Heromarine G1 on Heavy Rain
HyuN vs. Heromarine G2 on Frost
PiG's blog - worth looking at
Build Order:
9 overlord
15 hatch
14 pool
17 overlord
@100% pool -> lings x3/queen x2
24 overlord
@100% queens -> queen x2
33 overlord
@5:15 gas x2
42 overlord
@6:30 sac overlord
@6:30-7:00 3rd hatch
@6:45 -> lair/roach warren/evo x2
@7:20 -> gas x2
@100% lair -> roach speed/overlord speed
**stop drones at 60 and constant roach production**
@10:30 -> 1/1 roach poke (150 supply)
If damage -> +2 attack and constant roaches
If defended -> +2/+2 and hydra den
@11:30 -> 4th hatch + drones
@14:00 -> 2/2 roach/hydra attack (maxed out)
HyuN's initial queens and 6 lings deal with reapers easily while losing almost no drones; note that it's very easy for HyuN to have 6 lings out with his pool on 14. After defending, the first two queens move to the front and begin to start spreading creep while the second set of queens begin injecting.
HyuN's scout timings basically revolve around two things: what is going on at the ramp and if there is an early 3rd CC. In most games, HyuN simply leaves his initial overlord hanging out over the barracks until a marine pops out to check how many reapers his opponent is making. This also usually allows him to see the factory when it goes down. If his initial overlord isn't killed off, he'll use it scout the main base around 6:00 to check for the third CC, otherwise he'll just poke with another overlord. HyuN also checks the ramp again at ~7:00 to check for banshees.
After taking a third and going up ~60 drones, HyuN starts producing nonstop roaches. At 10:30, HyuN has an attack timing with 150 supply and +1/+1 for his roaches finished. While this can outright kill a greedy Terran player, it is designed to allow HyuN to spread creep, add a 4th and prevent the Terran from taking his 3rd early. HyuN also puts a lot of effort into blocking the potential thirds of the Terran with creep. Versus dedicated hellion/banshee pressure, HyuN would probably leave a few roaches back at home to prevent hellion runbys from doing massive damage and would probably tech to hydras a little faster.
During his first push, HyuN can get a good read on his opponent's composition and defensive ability and make decisions based on that information. If HyuN can annihilate the first line of defense and put himself ahead with the first push, he starts only +1 attack and pumps nonstop roaches, delaying his hydras. If his first push is unable to break the Terran, he does his best to stop the third from going down while droning up his 4th, teching to hydras, and starting +2/+2. This sets him up for yet another powerful attack at 14:00 with a maxed out roach/hydra force, which is usually game ending.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bB70DPo.png) GG umad bro?
In his game against mech with Heromarine, HyuN drops down a hydra den and infestation pit simultaneously and techs straight to vipers. Because his first push allows him to spread so much creep, he can endlessly kite a pre-hive hellbat/tank push and buy just enough time for vipers to get out. What's nice is that HyuN changes very little in his build order whether he's facing bio or mech; either way, his strategy seems to be fairly effective.
All in all, it's a pretty sick build! I'd like to see more of it. I'm not sure what the ultimate transition would be, but I assume that roach/hydra -> infestor/viper and adding swarm hosts and lots of static defense eventually would work. It's hard to say if this composition is on the rise again with the hydra buff, or if it's just a new strategy that will get figured out.
Also included, my REALLLLY old notes from the first month of HotS (which are surprisingly accurate): + Show Spoiler +Zerg vs. Terran
Roach/hydra 3-base timing vs. hellion/banshee
15 hatch
15 pool
17 overlord
queen/queen/zergling
drone drone drone
24 overlord
queen/queen
5:00 - double gas (~34 supply)
5:50 - 3rd hatch
zergling speed
7:00 - double evo + spine crawler + roach warren
5th queen
+1/+1
4 roaches
Macro hatch
lair - finishes at ~9:30
hydra den - range THEN speed
galil reconstitution
+2/+2
11:00 - pure unit production -> maxout at 13:00
TERRAN'S perspective:
-First hellions around 7:00
*Response: build evo chamber wall at 7:00 + 5th queen
-cloaked banshees around 9:45
*Response: overlord scout at 8:30, build spores at 9:00
-Early 3rd at 8:00
*Response: If 3rd base, build spores and don't suicide overlord. If no 3rd base,
sac overlord and prepare defensively (1-2 spine crawlers + roaches)
**Possible followups**
1) Retain most of your hydras, add on (~8) swarm hosts with enduring locusts. Should work well against a mech army, taking a 4th and 5th base behind it.
2) Contain the terran to 3 bases, take 4th and 5th, tech up to hive. If mech -> vipers, if marine/tank -> broodlords, if bio+air -> infestors/ultras.
3) Nydus network, nydus worms at the front, in the main and the 3rd.
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This is sick SC2John! Thanks a bunch, can't wait to start trying this on the ladder
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United States248 Posts
Great write up :3
I think that this build is solid and good to know, but can be shut down eventually by terrans learning better timings; rauder/tank with drops does a Very Good Job of dealing with this, and at the very least can play evenly against it. I also think a 2 banshee helion/she opener would do wonders vs this build, as there wouldn't be a good way to spread creep until that 150 food push out, and those roaches would be toasted by she > tanks.
I do especially like that this is a 1 size fits all build, that works against mech and bio both pretty well, vs some of the older iterations of Roach Hydra that would get flat out stomped. This + the mine nerf vs Zerg makes the build pretty attractive!
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Good old roach 1-1 and roach/hydra 2-2 timings. Make Dimaga happy 
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Nice write up SC2John.
I remember when HoTS was in Beta I used to play ling/hydra into swarm host hydra. It was really effective, I ended up stopping because it was very hard to survive against the insane drop play that was being used. It was a really fun style.
I may just have to give this style a whirl.
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United States164 Posts
I think I missed the first few minutes of both games, but in both games it ended up with Jjakji starting tank production "sooner or later" (read: too late). How does the Terran scout this to know to get a tl on a factory? Start hellion banshee? Scan?
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On March 13 2014 05:16 Koromon wrote:
I think I missed the first few minutes of both games, but in both games it ended up with Jjakji starting tank production "sooner or later" (read: too late). How does the Terran scout this to know to get a tl on a factory? Start hellion banshee? Scan?
In game1, jjakji saw all the tells around 10mins. No zergling speed, roach warren researching something, roaches.
That's when he should have started tanks and maybe even a second factory. (instead he ended up with his second tank popping at 15mins)
In game2, jjakji should have at least been aware of 1-1roach being a possibility by the lack of a baneling nest or spire and the presence of roaches.
Basically, what you should scout for as a Terran:
early on (for the 1-1 timing) some tells are:
early roach defense
low zergling count
lack of zergling speed
roach warren researching something around 9-10mins
lack of any other tech like a baneling nest, a spire or an infestation pit
double evolution chambers (usually still standard ling/bling, but without them it can't be 1-1 roach into 2-2 roach/hydra)
later on (for the 2-2 follow up timing) some tells are:
finished range upgrades
hydralisk den
infestation pit
still lacking spire/baneling nest
next things to scout for (basically when Zerg switches out of R/H or makes a last attempt with it):
2-2 Hive timing with Vipers
Infestor transition
SH transition
BL transition
Ultralisk transition
Edit: lol, that thread made me try roach/hydra again in ZvT. Now I remember why I gave all those timing attacks up, Terrans at my level (low Masters) don't expand when they should. No way to do any damage against opponents that don't try to play an open game. They much rather expand at 12mins regardless of what you do and then whine about mutalisks.
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Wow, I really didn't think this was viable at that level of play. I'm going to have to try this.
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I spend 2 hours perfecting the build, went to KR ladder eventually found a Terran masters player and owned him with this strat lol.
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On March 13 2014 07:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 05:16 Koromon wrote:
I think I missed the first few minutes of both games, but in both games it ended up with Jjakji starting tank production "sooner or later" (read: too late). How does the Terran scout this to know to get a tl on a factory? Start hellion banshee? Scan? In game1, jjakji saw all the tells around 10mins. No zergling speed, roach warren researching something, roaches. That's when he should have started tanks and maybe even a second factory. (instead he ended up with his second tank popping at 15mins) In game2, jjakji should have at least been aware of 1-1roach being a possibility by the lack of a baneling nest or spire and the presence of roaches. Basically, what you should scout for as a Terran: early on (for the 1-1 timing) some tells are:early roach defense low zergling count lack of zergling speed roach warren researching something around 9-10mins lack of any other tech like a baneling nest, a spire or an infestation pit double evolution chambers (usually still standard ling/bling, but without them it can't be 1-1 roach into 2-2 roach/hydra) later on (for the 2-2 follow up timing) some tells are:finished range upgrades hydralisk den infestation pit still lacking spire/baneling nest next things to scout for (basically when Zerg switches out of R/H or makes a last attempt with it): 2-2 Hive timing with Vipers Infestor transition SH transition BL transition Ultralisk transition Edit: lol, that thread made me try roach/hydra again in ZvT. Now I remember why I gave all those timing attacks up, Terrans at my level (low Masters) don't expand when they should. No way to do any damage against opponents that don't try to play an open game. They much rather expand at 12mins regardless of what you do and then whine about mutalisks.
theres also a version of the 1-1 timing that gets speed and looks exactly like a fast muta openimg with many queens etc.
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United States4879 Posts
On March 14 2014 09:21 greenroom wrote:
Wow, I really didn't think this was viable at that level of play. I'm going to have to try this.
Yeah, this is an awesome and easy build to pull off. I like to call it "the blink stalker all-in of ZvT". :p
On March 14 2014 12:42 ThePastor wrote:
I spend 2 hours perfecting the build, went to KR ladder eventually found a Terran masters player and owned him with this strat lol.
Awesome, I'm glad to hear it's working for you . This build gave me my first win against my masters Terran friend hahaha.
On May 20 2014 14:25 coL.hendralisk wrote:
cool strat
YOU KNOW IT IS!! #proendorsement
On May 20 2014 18:22 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 07:20 Big J wrote:On March 13 2014 05:16 Koromon wrote:
I think I missed the first few minutes of both games, but in both games it ended up with Jjakji starting tank production "sooner or later" (read: too late). How does the Terran scout this to know to get a tl on a factory? Start hellion banshee? Scan? In game1, jjakji saw all the tells around 10mins. No zergling speed, roach warren researching something, roaches. That's when he should have started tanks and maybe even a second factory. (instead he ended up with his second tank popping at 15mins) In game2, jjakji should have at least been aware of 1-1roach being a possibility by the lack of a baneling nest or spire and the presence of roaches. Basically, what you should scout for as a Terran: early on (for the 1-1 timing) some tells are:early roach defense low zergling count lack of zergling speed roach warren researching something around 9-10mins lack of any other tech like a baneling nest, a spire or an infestation pit double evolution chambers (usually still standard ling/bling, but without them it can't be 1-1 roach into 2-2 roach/hydra) later on (for the 2-2 follow up timing) some tells are:finished range upgrades hydralisk den infestation pit still lacking spire/baneling nest next things to scout for (basically when Zerg switches out of R/H or makes a last attempt with it): 2-2 Hive timing with Vipers Infestor transition SH transition BL transition Ultralisk transition Edit: lol, that thread made me try roach/hydra again in ZvT. Now I remember why I gave all those timing attacks up, Terrans at my level (low Masters) don't expand when they should. No way to do any damage against opponents that don't try to play an open game. They much rather expand at 12mins regardless of what you do and then whine about mutalisks. theres also a version of the 1-1 timing that gets speed and looks exactly like a fast muta openimg with many queens etc.
If you go zergling speed, you have to trade off time. Assuming you take your third with 3-4 queens and zergling speed instead of roaches, you have an early game that looks a lot like muta/ling, but your 1-1 roach attack ends up being like a minute later.
Another cool variation of this strategy is a roach drop/nydus attack, which is simply investing into a nydus network and overlord speed/drops and dropping 4-5 overlords of roaches in your opponent's main around 10:30 then spawning a nydus to reinforce the drop.
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Thank you! I was never sure how to really play this against Terra.
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Sick build, great explanation. I've been doing a 1-1 roach build, but Hyun's way is obviously way better.
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Sick Build I am back to Hyun style ZvT. I often have problems against Widow mines drops and drops before my Roach production.
You can also defend mass Reaper rush with hatch first and 16 Pool and 4 Queen opening
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Something importend to let you know:
You only start you +1/+1 around 8:33 or 8:30 or it will slow down evrything
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EPT
