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On March 31 2014 18:18 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2014 17:19 DjayEl wrote:
Here is the thing : if you reach a certain point in Zerg economical development, there is very little Protoss can do to win.
I get to 5 bases most games and hardly ever beat toss.
Well, do the toss also gets 4-5 bases or do you manage to keep them on 3 bases? I should have elaborate a bit and add the fact that you must have stabilized and ruled out the all-ins, and started to bank ressources and your opponent and you share approximatively the same skill level.
This is my experience as a high diamond, but maybe it changes at extreme levels (silver or GM, I do not know).
Do you want to discuss this specific point?
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United States4883 Posts
On March 31 2014 22:43 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2014 18:18 Zorkmid wrote:On March 31 2014 17:19 DjayEl wrote:
Here is the thing : if you reach a certain point in Zerg economical development, there is very little Protoss can do to win.
I get to 5 bases most games and hardly ever beat toss. Well, do the toss also gets 4-5 bases or do you manage to keep them on 3 bases? I should have elaborate a bit and add the fact that you must have stabilized and ruled out the all-ins, and started to bank ressources and your opponent and you share approximatively the same skill level. This is my experience as a high diamond, but maybe it changes at extreme levels (silver or GM, I do not know). Do you want to discuss this specific point?
I mean, like all matchups, I think you just need to keep up with the Protoss in bases. The "economic advantage" that Zergs enjoy usually the result of either: 1) extremely cost efficient trades using Swarm hosts or brood lords, allowing Zerg to bank up extra money, or 2) mass expansions achieved through heavy map control in the mid game. If you watch Jaedong, he tends to prefer the second option, generally also banking up a lot of money by just not making units in the mid game unless he absolutely needs to.
You need to keep this concept in mind when you come up with your game plan (if your game plan is to win in the late game, that is). For instance, if I'm doing a roach/hydra mid game, my goal is probably going to be more along the lines of keeping the Protoss pinned back, trading wherever possible, and taking 4th and 5th bases behind it to get that really strong gas income. I might employ a lot of multi-pronged counterattack techniques as well to prevent the Protoss from moving out for as long as possible. On the other hand, if I were planning to do a swarm host mid game, I would just take 3 bases, sit comfortably and make some swarm hosts and take all of my bases slowly, knowing that I will continually bank money as long as I don't lose the swarm hosts. Of course, there are hybrids of those mid games, but ultimately, you want to pick one way to play the lategame.
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Please hold my hand defending against a 14/14 ling/bane all-in when I go 15/16 pool/hatch. I'm gold league.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4893328
I need to have something memorized so I don't try thinking on my feet while in game. In this particular game I hesitated actually putting drones in gas because I couldn't remember if that was the thing to do. I didn't know whether to queen block my ramp or not. Didn't think about moving down my spine which I think I had time to do. Everything was out in the open and it was pretty bad.
I've googled around and my best guess is:
1. 17 gas and put drones in gas (part of my standard build)
2. Bane nest before speed. I should get speed before making any banes right?
3. Spine ASAP? Delay till ___? Move down to natural.
4. Keep all 3 drones in gas (?)
4. 2 queens to block ramp and cover spine. Do I inject at all or do I save for transfuse? I noticed in this replay I had 3 larvae I didn't have the minerals to use when the attack hit.
From there basically delay until I get my own speed? Then break out with a bunch of ling/banes of my own? What happens if he just picks away at my natural on the far side of the spine? Do I entirely cut drones until I've driven him back?
When I've ended the rush. I should have such an advantage with the one hatch lead on him that I should be able to counter and win shortly afterwards, right? Is there a point to playing it overly safe?
I know this has to have been asked a billion times. I checked the last 10 pages. Thanks!
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United States4883 Posts
On April 03 2014 13:10 LyleGately wrote:Please hold my hand defending against a 14/14 ling/bane all-in when I go 15/16 pool/hatch. I'm gold league. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4893328I need to have something memorized so I don't try thinking on my feet while in game. In this particular game I hesitated actually putting drones in gas because I couldn't remember if that was the thing to do. I didn't know whether to queen block my ramp or not. Didn't think about moving down my spine which I think I had time to do. Everything was out in the open and it was pretty bad. I've googled around and my best guess is: 1. 17 gas and put drones in gas (part of my standard build) 2. Bane nest before speed. I should get speed before making any banes right? 3. Spine ASAP? Delay till ___? Move down to natural. 4. Keep all 3 drones in gas (?) 4. 2 queens to block ramp and cover spine. Do I inject at all or do I save for transfuse? I noticed in this replay I had 3 larvae I didn't have the minerals to use when the attack hit. From there basically delay until I get my own speed? Then break out with a bunch of ling/banes of my own? What happens if he just picks away at my natural on the far side of the spine? Do I entirely cut drones until I've driven him back? When I've ended the rush. I should have such an advantage with the one hatch lead on him that I should be able to counter and win shortly afterwards, right? Is there a point to playing it overly safe? I know this has to have been asked a billion times. I checked the last 10 pages. Thanks!
You've got the right idea with that list, your execution just probably needs to be better. I watched the replay and here are some things you can work on:
1) On Habitation Station and Polar Night you can scout directly into the main first without losing your overlord. This helps when deciphering between early pools, 14/14, 10pool/gas, etc. You can get most of that info scouting the natural as well, but it's nice to have complete intel when you can.
2) Priorities. The defense is going to include 3 queens, a spine crawler, banelings, and some zerglings of your own. You need to make sure you're spending your money in the right order. Bane nest before speed if your opponent's natural is late (because his speed/banes ARE going to be earlier than yours otherwise). Watch the replay and time your spine crawler so that it finishes just before the attack hits; in this case, 14/14 hits at 5:30, so you need to start building your spine (at your natural) around 4:15-4:30. Think about whether you need quick lings or the 3rd queen. The natural response is to spend your larva like crazy on lings, but you really need that 3rd queen earlier, so save your money!
3) The defense needs to look something like this: spine crawler on the low ground adjacent to the hatch and in range of the ramp, two queens blocking on the ramp with a 3rd queen injecting the main hatchery, and lings/banes rallying behind the queens. If he tries to force his way up the ramp and your banelings are not quite ready, you can kite the weakened queen backwards while amoving your lings down the ramp. If he tries to focus down the spine crawler, transfuse it.
4) Random details: I typically pull one drone out of gas to help the economy some, but I think it's a rather minor detail. I think double inject in the beginning is still always a solid option, but after that you want to save all of your energy for 2 transfuses on the ramp.
I think you're on the right path with those questions, just work on your execution and watch some pro replays of it to get a good idea of how to hold early ling/bane aggression.
EDIT: And yes, of course you're going to be getting zergling speed before any banelings. Very important to have that so you can take control of your natural.
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Hey guys, just started playing this game after a year of inactivity. What are the scout timing versus each race?
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United States4883 Posts
On April 04 2014 01:08 sizeon wrote:
Hey guys, just started playing this game after a year of inactivity. What are the scout timing versus each race?
That's a really broad question, but I'll just give you the biggest ones for 2-3 base play:
ZvP: @6:00-6:30, sac overlord/poke front to check for tech; one minute later for FFE
Followup overseer scout @lair to check for followup tech
ZvT: @6:00-6:30, check for 3rd CC/hellions/banshees
Followup overseer scout @lair to check for bio vs. mech
ZvZ: Depending on opening, check gases/drone count before lair
Followup overseer scout @lair to check for lair tech
There's really not much more than that other than knowing the timing for a bunch of threats and being able to react accordingly.
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Great detailed response about the 14/14! Thanks so much!
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Hi, I've got a ZvZ question.
I hate playing roach vs muta because I don't know how to do it, never did and honestly don't want to relearn all my build orders, that's why I play muta myself. If I go vs a muta players, it's fine cause I'm good at muta wars, but most of my opponents open roaches.
In this case, my overall plan is to gain some map control, possibly deny a 3rd, then do a +1 roach/bane timing to finish the game.
My question is: what is the correct way to do it?
I've good success with this style in diamond, but as I reach better players it is harder and harder to pull off. But I know it's viable, pros do this sometime, and I just should be able to get into masters with the strat of my choice, so I don't care roach timings may be "better" in current very high level meta.
The problems I'm running into are I can't always deny their 3rd, or if I do I get my 3rd sniped as well and I'm always behind. If my opponent does a 2 base roach timings, or does not expand fast enough, I always get 2 spines at my nat, cancel my 3rd if I need to and build evos in front of my spines so he can't get in and snipe my structures until mutas are out (if he backs off I cancel the evos). But if they take a pretty fast 3rd and my mutas fly over there to deny it, he just pushes with the roaches and snipes my own 3rd, then threatens my natural and then rebuild his 3rd instantly while my mutas get back and I must clear his push before expanding again, and I'm always behind.
Maybe I thought I should mass more speedlings before getting mutas, wait near his bases, then use my first mutas to defend incoming roaches while denying his 3rd with all my speedlings. Or maybe I should runby all of them into his nat if he has not walled off? I'm not sure of what is the correct strategy here.
Then, for the followup: I feel like I must do a big roach timing while he techs up to hydra and possibly infestor, because if I just switch to roach/hydra myself my tech and upgrades will be just late and I don't feel my mutas got me enough of an advantage to have a nice mid game position.
What is the correct route and how can I maximize the effectiveness of my mutas before switching? How many should I make? Is there some kind of tricks to punish overconfident R/H players when using this style?
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United States248 Posts
Hey there!
Unfortunately, you're kind of running into the core issue of muta vs roach on most maps, with muta needing to do pretty good damage (deny 3rd + kill queens/drones) for you to come out on top of the situation, given he will have better upgrades like 90% of the time. This is one reason why muta builds have fallen out of favor in the proscene (not a lot of muta v muta in the GSL =0).
That's not to say that it isn't viable, I still play it at high masters, and top foreigners and lower tier korean's use it, you should just know that its not the best of the best.
Anyway, on to your problems. It sounds to me like you are droning pretty hard after lair in order to press your advantage, so when his roaches attack you're in a tough spot. In general, its safest to ling heavily after 2 base saturation, only droning right around when your 3rd finishes (which should be after your mutas are started). This hard ling swell gives you a lot of stuff: if he's droned hard you can just end the game with muta ling, if he is going aggressive you can hold his roach pack with lings and kill it with mutas while getting roach upgrades yourself, all kinds of stuff. With this ling swell you should be able to hold most of what you are worried about.
The follow up is where it gets more difficult, because again you need to have done some damage and got ahead on economy for anything to actually work. I like roach + burrow movement, and combine that with my leftover mutas to get a lot of harass done while doing some sort of tech (single evo upgrades into hydras, SH, whatever). SH are a good option if you can do good damage because they are very hard to break when used defensively.
I think for me to give better advice a replay is needed of a typical muta v roach game for you, do you have any handy?
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@Jowj:
Here are the games (my ID is "Doomgaze"):
Typical game where I loose:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/1 Typical game where I lose.SC2Replay
Typical game where I win:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/2 Normal game when everything goes right.SC2Replay
That's not to say that it isn't viable, I still play it at high masters, and top foreigners and lower tier korean's use it, you should just know that its not the best of the best.
I guess if it works in Masters I'm cool wi that 
Basically, I want a style where I can get an "opportunity" tu punish an opponent or force bad reaction, I don't feel confident enough to pull off a way better roach/roach war than 50% of the guys I meet and I am not sure I can get consistent enough with these. I'd like something solid and strong but I hate facing mutas.
Anyway, on to your problems. It sounds to me like you are droning pretty hard after lair in order to press your advantage, so when his roaches attack you're in a tough spot. In general, its safest to ling heavily after 2 base saturation, only droning right around when your 3rd finishes (which should be after your mutas are started)
I thought I was doing exactly this, but after reading you I might be wrong. I always make lings after putting spire and taking 3rd, but if he moves out with 1/1 roaches even 30 lings won't do shit, I feel. So basically you advice would be to engage the roaches with the lings before mutas are out?
SH are a good option if you can do good damage because they are very hard to break when used defensively.
Well I was doing muta into SH before that, using the exact same BO that is specified by Blade in his guide ("Second Overview of HOTS Zerg") and I liked it pretty well, unfortunately SH are hard to use on maps like Deadalus, Polar Night or Frost, and I vetoed every other map execpt Habitation Station. On these maps, I feel SH are too easily kited, but I might be doing this wrong.
So basically I'm doing this BO (Blade's one) but instead of SH, put down an evo, a RW and a macro hatch, saturate 3 bases of mineral and get 4 gases then pump roaches like crazy and push.
Do I tech at the right time (100 gas after bane nest is done)? I saturate 2 bases with gas, put down 3rd after spire is started then I mass lings and make 1-2 spines if I know I face Roaches. Maybe I don't get enough lings at this point, I dunno...
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Hello, can someone recommend any vods of zvz from recent tournys? Also, tourny vods where zerg is vs an 'imba' army/strat but comes out on top. Thanks
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Is it possible to, and does anybody use double ups ling into ultra style (Leenock vs Naniwa-esque) currently in ZvP?
I have tried it a couple of times today and I just straight up die to 2 base all ins. Is the build not great in the current metagame, or how do I respond upon scouting an all in?
Thanks
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United States248 Posts
On April 05 2014 03:34 DjayEl wrote:@Jowj: Here are the games (my ID is "Doomgaze"): Typical game where I loose: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/1 Typical game where I lose.SC2ReplayTypical game where I win: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/2 Normal game when everything goes right.SC2ReplayShow nested quote +That's not to say that it isn't viable, I still play it at high masters, and top foreigners and lower tier korean's use it, you should just know that its not the best of the best. I guess if it works in Masters I'm cool wi that Basically, I want a style where I can get an "opportunity" tu punish an opponent or force bad reaction, I don't feel confident enough to pull off a way better roach/roach war than 50% of the guys I meet and I am not sure I can get consistent enough with these. I'd like something solid and strong but I hate facing mutas. Show nested quote +Anyway, on to your problems. It sounds to me like you are droning pretty hard after lair in order to press your advantage, so when his roaches attack you're in a tough spot. In general, its safest to ling heavily after 2 base saturation, only droning right around when your 3rd finishes (which should be after your mutas are started) I thought I was doing exactly this, but after reading you I might be wrong. I always make lings after putting spire and taking 3rd, but if he moves out with 1/1 roaches even 30 lings won't do shit, I feel. So basically you advice would be to engage the roaches with the lings before mutas are out? Show nested quote + SH are a good option if you can do good damage because they are very hard to break when used defensively.
Well I was doing muta into SH before that, using the exact same BO that is specified by Blade in his guide ("Second Overview of HOTS Zerg") and I liked it pretty well, unfortunately SH are hard to use on maps like Deadalus, Polar Night or Frost, and I vetoed every other map execpt Habitation Station. On these maps, I feel SH are too easily kited, but I might be doing this wrong. So basically I'm doing this BO (Blade's one) but instead of SH, put down an evo, a RW and a macro hatch, saturate 3 bases of mineral and get 4 gases then pump roaches like crazy and push. Do I tech at the right time (100 gas after bane nest is done)? I saturate 2 bases with gas, put down 3rd after spire is started then I mass lings and make 1-2 spines if I know I face Roaches. Maybe I don't get enough lings at this point, I dunno...
So first I'll say that 1/1 roaches are hard for muta openings to hold, those are designed to do a lot of damage to mutalisks. However, there are several ways to blunt their damage.
1) Cancel their 3rd (you did this, nice solid cancel on your part)
2) keep your lings around to counter as soon as he moves it. This often times forces him to turn around, and if he doesn't you will eventually clean up his roaches with your muta + reinforcements and he'll have a cripplled eco and probably no queens, so his reinforcements are way less than yours. You'll also probably cancel his 3rd again which is again good for you.
3)As soon as you are lair, you can make an OL and clear out his creep highway. This delays his push by a good amount, since speed roaches are pretty damn fast on creep
4) As soon as you see his roaches out on the map, send your mutas to go target fire them down. He can either turn around or commit them to the attack. Either way you are happy, since if he turns around you've delayed his attack and you can get your roach transition solidified, and if he commits you've already started damaging him, so this is good too.
5) Since you scout his roaches and upgrades pretty early you can set up your own roach transition earlier, as you know you'll have an earlier 3rd than him if he commits hard to the attack, and you can start pumping less effective roaches to help you hold in the interim.
As for notes on your specific game, I will say you're very close to holding it, and your mechanics are pretty good. However, you're missing a very key aspect of injects. That is, you have to spend your larva, not just keep injecting :3 You never actually 0 out your larva AT ALL past the like 3 minute mark, and you oftem time have well over 5 larva when you're on 2 base. This means that at least one of your hatcheries is not producing larva, which gives you a lot less units to defend with.
Also, your geysers are VERY late (like over 1 minute late). You got them after 7 minutes, instead of around 6 minutes like you needed. Having geysters out by 6 minutes means more mutas earlier, which means less damage from the roach timing, etc.
I hope this helps! Let me know if I can clarify anything.
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United States248 Posts
On April 05 2014 04:03 coL.hendralisk wrote:
Hello, can someone recommend any vods of zvz from recent tournys? Also, tourny vods where zerg is vs an 'imba' army/strat but comes out on top. Thanks
Hey,
I'd start with SSC grand finals of hyun vs snute. If i'm remembering that one right its a solid ZvZ series with minimal hijinks, but you'll have to watch to find out. It's located here:
http://taketv.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=8367
You could also check out Life vs soO in the GSL (paywalled) and Life vs Rogue from Katawice, here:
http://www.eslgaming.com/article/world-championship-starcraft-ii-replays-released
I'm not sure about that second thing, but i'd probably watch proleague if you're looking for vs Toss stuff. There's a never ending amount of SH vs Deathball that happens there.
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@Jowj
Thanks for everything! It does make sense to me.
As for notes on your specific game, I will say you're very close to holding it, and your mechanics are pretty good. However, you're missing a very key aspect of injects. That is, you have to spend your larva, not just keep injecting :3 You never actually 0 out your larva AT ALL past the like 3 minute mark, and you oftem time have well over 5 larva when you're on 2 base. This means that at least one of your hatcheries is not producing larva, which gives you a lot less units to defend with.
Yeah I guess I'm afraid of overmaking lings and want to save the money, what for I'm not sure :p but you right on this. I'll double check to make sure why I do this, because I don't stack larvae like this in other matchups... :s
Also, your geysers are VERY late (like over 1 minute late). You got them after 7 minutes, instead of around 6 minutes like you needed. Having geysters out by 6 minutes means more mutas earlier, which means less damage from the roach timing, etc.
Ah... this one has always been tricky to me. I used to take gases sooner (half lair), but now I wait until my minerals are saturated because I had bad previous experience by taking gas too early: no enough income to make enough lings, take a 3rd in time + make overs, etc. I'm not exactly sure how the exact timings would be, as I don't want to be overly greedy in the first two minutes in case of all-ins, etc. (that's why I make some lings to scout).
Your advice would be precious here.
Anyways, I'm going to refine this and share the results here later, and would be glad to have your insight again!
Thank you man.
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Can the 4 queen build order versus Terran hold off 4 reaper harass or is it necessary to go speedlings?
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United States248 Posts
On April 05 2014 06:11 DjayEl wrote:@Jowj Thanks for everything! It does make sense to me. Show nested quote +As for notes on your specific game, I will say you're very close to holding it, and your mechanics are pretty good. However, you're missing a very key aspect of injects. That is, you have to spend your larva, not just keep injecting :3 You never actually 0 out your larva AT ALL past the like 3 minute mark, and you oftem time have well over 5 larva when you're on 2 base. This means that at least one of your hatcheries is not producing larva, which gives you a lot less units to defend with. Yeah I guess I'm afraid of overmaking lings and want to save the money, what for I'm not sure :p but you right on this. I'll double check to make sure why I do this, because I don't stack larvae like this in other matchups... :s Show nested quote +Also, your geysers are VERY late (like over 1 minute late). You got them after 7 minutes, instead of around 6 minutes like you needed. Having geysters out by 6 minutes means more mutas earlier, which means less damage from the roach timing, etc. Ah... this one has always been tricky to me. I used to take gases sooner (half lair), but now I wait until my minerals are saturated because I had bad previous experience by taking gas too early: no enough income to make enough lings, take a 3rd in time + make overs, etc. I'm not exactly sure how the exact timings would be, as I don't want to be overly greedy in the first two minutes in case of all-ins, etc. (that's why I make some lings to scout). Your advice would be precious here. Anyways, I'm going to refine this and share the results here later, and would be glad to have your insight again! Thank you man.
Yeah; overmaking lings is definitely a danger, but if the option is end up behind in economy or die you probably want to Not Die first and then fine tune from there.
So the gasses thing is hard to get an exact feel for, and I don't have a specific replay handy since I'm at work to show you how I do it, but if you're following blade's guide i believe he recommends 3 more geysers to get all 4 by...6:10 at the latest I think. Making sure you have enough workers for this gas is also going to be affected by the spending your larva thing we talked about earlier. I'd encourage you to try and get a feel for what works in AI games, really focusing on spending every resource you have (larva is a resource!) and try and make the 6:10 timing work at least.
Definitely share what you come up with after you practice some, we'd love to see the progress! =)
On April 05 2014 09:14 Dynamitekid wrote:
Can the 4 queen build order versus Terran hold off 4 reaper harass or is it necessary to go speedlings?
4queen can deal with reaper harass, you just need to be strong on your drone micro. 4 reaper is pretty abnormal though, its usually 1-3 reapers. Its ok to take some damage, as 4 reapers is a pretty significant investment from the terran player (super delays their reactor on their factory) so keep that in mind too. What specifically are you having problems with?
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United States248 Posts
On April 05 2014 05:07 mau5mat wrote:
Is it possible to, and does anybody use double ups ling into ultra style (Leenock vs Naniwa-esque) currently in ZvP?
I have tried it a couple of times today and I just straight up die to 2 base all ins. Is the build not great in the current metagame, or how do I respond upon scouting an all in?
Thanks
Sorry I missed this earlier!
The double upgrade ling style still works in ZvP, Jaedong uses it in BoX series, Solar uses it in pro league from time to time. Using it as a regular ladder build on every map is not advisable, but map specific it is fine. I prefer it on larger maps like Frost or Alterzim as a transitional build into brood lords as that seems to be Jaedong's favored way of playing it, but it does work. For an example of using this feel free to check out the Patience vs Jaedong series from IEM cologne - he does this build at least twice, but with variations on the maps. I posted the link to the replays earlier in the thread as a response to Hendralisk.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On April 06 2014 01:03 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 05:07 mau5mat wrote:
Is it possible to, and does anybody use double ups ling into ultra style (Leenock vs Naniwa-esque) currently in ZvP?
I have tried it a couple of times today and I just straight up die to 2 base all ins. Is the build not great in the current metagame, or how do I respond upon scouting an all in?
Thanks Sorry I missed this earlier! The double upgrade ling style still works in ZvP, Jaedong uses it in BoX series, Solar uses it in pro league from time to time. Using it as a regular ladder build on every map is not advisable, but map specific it is fine. I prefer it on larger maps like Frost or Alterzim as a transitional build into brood lords as that seems to be Jaedong's favored way of playing it, but it does work. For an example of using this feel free to check out the Patience vs Jaedong series from IEM cologne - he does this build at least twice, but with variations on the maps. I posted the link to the replays earlier in the thread as a response to Hendralisk.
Thanks very much
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EPT
