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On March 27 2014 12:43 Zorkmid wrote:
What in the fuck are you supposed to do vs mass ravens? I made Swarm hosts, static D, broods, corruptors, infestors, vipers was on 12 gas all game, spread my broods, and infestors. He sim cities around PFs that he gets by dropping like 40 auto turrets, even baneling busted one of his expos.
Ravens mean he is doing two things: relying on gas and microing ravens.
So you should apply pressure on those things. A dozen SH (potentially with a few BLs later on) will make it so that he has to run around with the ravens to put down PDDs, and two dozen mutas are enough to constantly make him worry needing to use seeker missiles and PDDs to avoid getting ravens sniped. Together, these things will tax his attention and keep him on the defensive.
You should have every expo blocked, do not allow him a new pair of geysers (past his third or fourth base, anyway). He needs gas, so deny him from getting more. Build a huge bank.
The key to actually killing ravens, in my experience, is infestors with neural. You split them up in pairs, creep up the whole map for vision and speed, and burrow them. Your SH+muta pressure should force him to run around putting out fires, and your goal is to watch carefully and swoop in when he is harassed out of his mind. Send in a pair of infestors, with one infestor using fungal and one using neural. Immediately drag-select over his ravens, then spam seeker missile off that neural'd raven, then fungal again if you have energy (cancel neural if necessary). A second fungal means his slow ravens definitely can't run far enough anymore, so he hopefully eats as many as two seekers, and as many as two fungals. All you risk in each attempt is getting those two infestors seeker'd, but since the missiles are too slow to prevent them from getting off their combo, things work out in your favor in the long run.
Even if you don't kill any ravens, he will be forced to spend gas to repair them, lest he risk losing them to mutas or later fungals.
Remember that he has probably 6-8 geysers' worth of gas, so you need to run that out before you can smash him.
You can also engage his ravens with a suicide flock of mutas (i.e., he PDDs up and mass seekers you, you run in and hug him tight--I mean don't even bother attacking, just stay on top of his ravens), followed up with a second flock now that he's out of ravens (or whatever appropriate counter to his remaining army comp). Break his army and destroy his factories so that his already slow rebuild time becomes further crippled. I recommend this option when you are confident that he is running out of gas (e.g., after using the infestor option above), so that he doesn't pop two ravens and three thors as you try to counter.
Basically, you have two ways to kill ravens: infestor suicide and muta suicide. Forcing mistakes helps with infestor use (he gets caught unaware, clumped, and away from tank cover), but you can use both to trade your gas for his.
In my experience, hydra-viper and corruptor-viper are utter crap. Vipers never successfully pull, as they die very quickly to vikings, which are ridiculously easy for him to mass, and hydras and corruptors are simultaneously clumpy and bad at dodging seeker missiles.
EDIT: spelling/grammar.
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Hey zergies.
On polar night, why do all pros take their third in a line rather than a triangle? I like to take the one in the middle because it's closer to my other bases so I can defend it quicker.
Anyone know how vision works on ramps? I'm trying to surprise my opponent with a bane on top of a ramp.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 27 2014 21:06 TRaFFiC wrote:
Hey zergies.
On polar night, why do all pros take their third in a line rather than a triangle? I like to take the one in the middle because it's closer to my other bases so I can defend it quicker.
Anyone know how vision works on ramps? I'm trying to surprise my opponent with a bane on top of a ramp.
1) The rush distance is incredibly small if you take the forward base, which is usually not a good thing versus Terran or Protoss, who are typically the aggressors. I'm sure there's a way to make it work, but it's very difficult to play "standard" like that.
2) I'm not entirely sure what this question is asking. Units don't get vision of the high ground until they're like halfway up a ramp; leaving banelings at the top of your main ramp is a 100% must in ZvZ.
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On March 27 2014 22:16 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 21:06 TRaFFiC wrote:
Hey zergies.
On polar night, why do all pros take their third in a line rather than a triangle? I like to take the one in the middle because it's closer to my other bases so I can defend it quicker.
Anyone know how vision works on ramps? I'm trying to surprise my opponent with a bane on top of a ramp. 1) The rush distance is incredibly small if you take the forward base, which is usually not a good thing versus Terran or Protoss, who are typically the aggressors. I'm sure there's a way to make it work, but it's very difficult to play "standard" like that. 2) I'm not entirely sure what this question is asking. Units don't get vision of the high ground until they're like halfway up a ramp; leaving banelings at the top of your main ramp is a 100% must in ZvZ.
Thx for the reply man  I'm diamond level atm.
1)I take that base in zvz only. I usually play muta so I figure if they go for any roach timing, I can defend the base that much quicker. how much shorter is the rush distance? Looking at it, it looks close. <<<haha pun
2) yeah, that's what I was asking. So it might be possible to pull back if you're fast enough? I always leave a bane on top of my main ramp.
NEW QUESTION: anyone know how those little highgrounds above the natural work? I swear I put on ovie on it and it got shot by a marine. Is it in the middle, hold position, or what?
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United States248 Posts
On March 27 2014 23:34 TRaFFiC wrote:
NEW QUESTION: anyone know how those little highgrounds above the natural work? I swear I put on ovie on it and it got shot by a marine. Is it in the middle, hold position, or what?
They work, you just have to be particular about the position. I'd hop in a custom game and test it yourself to really get the feel for it, but the goal is "inside the square" usually, although it can be hard to tell depending on your camera position.
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I am high gold at the moment.
I'm having trouble with my play and I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't have the replays on hand, but I can upload them if you would like with a bit of time.
I have a problem with losing battles that it makes no sense for me to lose, i.e. losing a battle in which I am NOT hard countered and have a supply and/or upgrade advantage.
I will give three examples
1) ZvP -- Protoss attempts a DT rush. I had spores, it was scouted, I sustained minimal losses. His followup was to morph the remaining DTs into archons. He proceeded to push into my base with 3 archons and 5 zealots. My army was 2 queens (at main hatchery, this was alterzim stronghold), 24 lings with +1/+1, and 10 roaches with +0/+1.
I lost every single unit. He lost three zealots. At that point he rolled over and destroyed my base while I literally stared at the screen stunned that 8 units killed 36 units. GG.
2) Also ZvP -- Extremely late macro game. 5 base zerg vs 3 base protoss. Blows have been traded back and forth with ground armies. He's about mined out. I see his army (consisting of 34 void rays only) in the center of the map as he kills one of my overlords. I decide to move in since he's exposed and away from nexus cannon and his static defense. I have 59 mutalisks, which converge from the south and meet them. He is on 3/3/3. I'm on 3/3 as well, as this is a late game scenario.
I lost all 59 mutas. He lost 6 void rays. That was gg.
3) ZvT -- In an open field engagement, I lost to 70 +1/+1 marines without combat shield + 4 medivacs. My forces were 70 +2/+2 roaches and 16 +2/+2 hydralisks. Neither side had a real concave, it looked like trench warfare in a line without the trenches. I flanked him from the side on creep and then attacked into his line. I lost everything. He still had 3 of the 4 medivacs and 26 marines remaining. No reinforcements from either side contributed to this battle. He proceeded to reinforce with what he had streaming across the map and mow over me. GG.
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On March 28 2014 01:56 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 23:34 TRaFFiC wrote:
NEW QUESTION: anyone know how those little highgrounds above the natural work? I swear I put on ovie on it and it got shot by a marine. Is it in the middle, hold position, or what? They work, you just have to be particular about the position. I'd hop in a custom game and test it yourself to really get the feel for it, but the goal is "inside the square" usually, although it can be hard to tell depending on your camera position.
You've really got to be on that highground, not close to it. Turn on the flyer helper (in options) to aid you.
Are you sure there wasn't any aerial unit around, or that you were in range of a unit on another high ground?
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Hi!
How do you guys open in ZvZ on Daedalus Point? I always feel that I either want to take a rather fast B2 and die to all-in from one base; or I try myself to all-in from one base. I lose in both cases.
I know that this map is soon to be dead, but I'm still interested about the theorycraft some people could have about it.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 29 2014 19:30 Aelendis wrote:
Hi!
How do you guys open in ZvZ on Daedalus Point? I always feel that I either want to take a rather fast B2 and die to all-in from one base; or I try myself to all-in from one base. I lose in both cases.
I know that this map is soon to be dead, but I'm still interested about the theorycraft some people could have about it.
I think opening gasless is completely out of the question. As far as gas openings, I think most anything will work okay as long as your micro well. It's a little bit harder to defend ling/bane pushes because of the distance between the main ramp and the natural hatch and the lack of wallable space in the natural...but it can still be done. My advice is to just open with a standard economic gas opening (14p16h15g or hatch first) and do your best to defend. If you find you're still not having success (after a lot of dedicated practice), maybe just explore early pools, 14g/14p, or 10-poolgas openings and see how comfortable they feel.
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On March 29 2014 15:29 astiesan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I am high gold at the moment.
I'm having trouble with my play and I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't have the replays on hand, but I can upload them if you would like with a bit of time.
I have a problem with losing battles that it makes no sense for me to lose, i.e. losing a battle in which I am NOT hard countered and have a supply and/or upgrade advantage.
I will give three examples
1) ZvP -- Protoss attempts a DT rush. I had spores, it was scouted, I sustained minimal losses. His followup was to morph the remaining DTs into archons. He proceeded to push into my base with 3 archons and 5 zealots. My army was 2 queens (at main hatchery, this was alterzim stronghold), 24 lings with +1/+1, and 10 roaches with +0/+1.
I lost every single unit. He lost three zealots. At that point he rolled over and destroyed my base while I literally stared at the screen stunned that 8 units killed 36 units. GG.
2) Also ZvP -- Extremely late macro game. 5 base zerg vs 3 base protoss. Blows have been traded back and forth with ground armies. He's about mined out. I see his army (consisting of 34 void rays only) in the center of the map as he kills one of my overlords. I decide to move in since he's exposed and away from nexus cannon and his static defense. I have 59 mutalisks, which converge from the south and meet them. He is on 3/3/3. I'm on 3/3 as well, as this is a late game scenario.
I lost all 59 mutas. He lost 6 void rays. That was gg.
3) ZvT -- In an open field engagement, I lost to 70 +1/+1 marines without combat shield + 4 medivacs. My forces were 70 +2/+2 roaches and 16 +2/+2 hydralisks. Neither side had a real concave, it looked like trench warfare in a line without the trenches. I flanked him from the side on creep and then attacked into his line. I lost everything. He still had 3 of the 4 medivacs and 26 marines remaining. No reinforcements from either side contributed to this battle. He proceeded to reinforce with what he had streaming across the map and mow over me. GG.
1) If I'm not mistaken, that was a 1350/250 mineral/gas Zerg army versus a 1250/750 mineral/gas Protoss army. Archons can kill a lot of zerglings with their splash and zealots can – under circumstances – kill roaches quite well if the roach number isn't too high. Also, you shouldn't really go for melee upgrades and roaches at the same time.
2) If you let your opponent get these void ray numbers, no composition of attacking units beats that. So if you don't beat Protoss earlier, your only hope are good fungals or abducting one by one.
3) This doesn't make much sense to me. How come you had a 172 supply army? I'm quite sure you didn't have that many roaches if you lost the fight.
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On March 28 2014 01:56 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 23:34 TRaFFiC wrote:
NEW QUESTION: anyone know how those little highgrounds above the natural work? I swear I put on ovie on it and it got shot by a marine. Is it in the middle, hold position, or what? They work, you just have to be particular about the position. I'd hop in a custom game and test it yourself to really get the feel for it, but the goal is "inside the square" usually, although it can be hard to tell depending on your camera position.
Any custom besides playing terran ai? It's annoying because if you lose that ovie and can't get an entire cycle of drones out, you're fucked. @SC2Toastie I got flier helper on.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 29 2014 15:29 astiesan wrote:
I am high gold at the moment.
I'm having trouble with my play and I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't have the replays on hand, but I can upload them if you would like with a bit of time.
I have a problem with losing battles that it makes no sense for me to lose, i.e. losing a battle in which I am NOT hard countered and have a supply and/or upgrade advantage.
I will give three examples
1) ZvP -- Protoss attempts a DT rush. I had spores, it was scouted, I sustained minimal losses. His followup was to morph the remaining DTs into archons. He proceeded to push into my base with 3 archons and 5 zealots. My army was 2 queens (at main hatchery, this was alterzim stronghold), 24 lings with +1/+1, and 10 roaches with +0/+1.
I lost every single unit. He lost three zealots. At that point he rolled over and destroyed my base while I literally stared at the screen stunned that 8 units killed 36 units. GG.
2) Also ZvP -- Extremely late macro game. 5 base zerg vs 3 base protoss. Blows have been traded back and forth with ground armies. He's about mined out. I see his army (consisting of 34 void rays only) in the center of the map as he kills one of my overlords. I decide to move in since he's exposed and away from nexus cannon and his static defense. I have 59 mutalisks, which converge from the south and meet them. He is on 3/3/3. I'm on 3/3 as well, as this is a late game scenario.
I lost all 59 mutas. He lost 6 void rays. That was gg.
3) ZvT -- In an open field engagement, I lost to 70 +1/+1 marines without combat shield + 4 medivacs. My forces were 70 +2/+2 roaches and 16 +2/+2 hydralisks. Neither side had a real concave, it looked like trench warfare in a line without the trenches. I flanked him from the side on creep and then attacked into his line. I lost everything. He still had 3 of the 4 medivacs and 26 marines remaining. No reinforcements from either side contributed to this battle. He proceeded to reinforce with what he had streaming across the map and mow over me. GG.
@astiesan You should upload the replays man. Could be any number of things. Maybe they're out microing you or maybe you over micro.
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On March 29 2014 19:59 velvex wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 15:29 astiesan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I am high gold at the moment.
I'm having trouble with my play and I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't have the replays on hand, but I can upload them if you would like with a bit of time.
I have a problem with losing battles that it makes no sense for me to lose, i.e. losing a battle in which I am NOT hard countered and have a supply and/or upgrade advantage.
I will give three examples
1) ZvP -- Protoss attempts a DT rush. I had spores, it was scouted, I sustained minimal losses. His followup was to morph the remaining DTs into archons. He proceeded to push into my base with 3 archons and 5 zealots. My army was 2 queens (at main hatchery, this was alterzim stronghold), 24 lings with +1/+1, and 10 roaches with +0/+1.
I lost every single unit. He lost three zealots. At that point he rolled over and destroyed my base while I literally stared at the screen stunned that 8 units killed 36 units. GG.
2) Also ZvP -- Extremely late macro game. 5 base zerg vs 3 base protoss. Blows have been traded back and forth with ground armies. He's about mined out. I see his army (consisting of 34 void rays only) in the center of the map as he kills one of my overlords. I decide to move in since he's exposed and away from nexus cannon and his static defense. I have 59 mutalisks, which converge from the south and meet them. He is on 3/3/3. I'm on 3/3 as well, as this is a late game scenario.
I lost all 59 mutas. He lost 6 void rays. That was gg.
3) ZvT -- In an open field engagement, I lost to 70 +1/+1 marines without combat shield + 4 medivacs. My forces were 70 +2/+2 roaches and 16 +2/+2 hydralisks. Neither side had a real concave, it looked like trench warfare in a line without the trenches. I flanked him from the side on creep and then attacked into his line. I lost everything. He still had 3 of the 4 medivacs and 26 marines remaining. No reinforcements from either side contributed to this battle. He proceeded to reinforce with what he had streaming across the map and mow over me. GG. 1) If I'm not mistaken, that was a 1350/250 mineral/gas Zerg army versus a 1250/750 mineral/gas Protoss army. Archons can kill a lot of zerglings with their splash and zealots can – under circumstances – kill roaches quite well if the roach number isn't too high. Also, you shouldn't really go for melee upgrades and roaches at the same time. 2) If you let your opponent get these void ray numbers, no composition of attacking units beats that. So if you don't beat Protoss earlier, your only hope are good fungals or abducting one by one. 3) This doesn't make much sense to me. How come you had a 172 supply army? I'm quite sure you didn't have that many roaches if you lost the fight.
Re 1: I did some roaches expecting that he would just go with it. That's why I had them. Pure lings would have definitely been a loss
Re 2: So basically what you're saying is in a ZvP I should just gg out if it goes past the 20 minute mark because the deathball is in fact unbeatable? Not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely asking. Corruptors vs void rays are absolutely lol-worthy. Mutas and hydras seem to be the correct answer to void rays. I just find it flabbergasting that nearly double the muta numbers didn't at least kill say, half of that army, where I could reinforce and try again.
Re 3: You are correct, I originally put my army first then changed the wording, it was 50 roaches and 16 hydras.
I try not to give into the toss imba crowd. I don't (usually) have a lot of trouble with protoss, but the engagements I do lose are ones like above. Where a giant amount of units is outclassed by the few. In that Muta/void ray encounter, 59 mutas is 12800 resources. 34 void rays is 13600, fairly even army cost. Mutas do splash damage, void rays do not do any additional damage vs mutas. I don't see why that at all should have been as lopsided as it was. It just doesn't make sense.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 30 2014 03:09 astiesan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 19:59 velvex wrote:On March 29 2014 15:29 astiesan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I am high gold at the moment.
I'm having trouble with my play and I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't have the replays on hand, but I can upload them if you would like with a bit of time.
I have a problem with losing battles that it makes no sense for me to lose, i.e. losing a battle in which I am NOT hard countered and have a supply and/or upgrade advantage.
I will give three examples
1) ZvP -- Protoss attempts a DT rush. I had spores, it was scouted, I sustained minimal losses. His followup was to morph the remaining DTs into archons. He proceeded to push into my base with 3 archons and 5 zealots. My army was 2 queens (at main hatchery, this was alterzim stronghold), 24 lings with +1/+1, and 10 roaches with +0/+1.
I lost every single unit. He lost three zealots. At that point he rolled over and destroyed my base while I literally stared at the screen stunned that 8 units killed 36 units. GG.
2) Also ZvP -- Extremely late macro game. 5 base zerg vs 3 base protoss. Blows have been traded back and forth with ground armies. He's about mined out. I see his army (consisting of 34 void rays only) in the center of the map as he kills one of my overlords. I decide to move in since he's exposed and away from nexus cannon and his static defense. I have 59 mutalisks, which converge from the south and meet them. He is on 3/3/3. I'm on 3/3 as well, as this is a late game scenario.
I lost all 59 mutas. He lost 6 void rays. That was gg.
3) ZvT -- In an open field engagement, I lost to 70 +1/+1 marines without combat shield + 4 medivacs. My forces were 70 +2/+2 roaches and 16 +2/+2 hydralisks. Neither side had a real concave, it looked like trench warfare in a line without the trenches. I flanked him from the side on creep and then attacked into his line. I lost everything. He still had 3 of the 4 medivacs and 26 marines remaining. No reinforcements from either side contributed to this battle. He proceeded to reinforce with what he had streaming across the map and mow over me. GG. 1) If I'm not mistaken, that was a 1350/250 mineral/gas Zerg army versus a 1250/750 mineral/gas Protoss army. Archons can kill a lot of zerglings with their splash and zealots can – under circumstances – kill roaches quite well if the roach number isn't too high. Also, you shouldn't really go for melee upgrades and roaches at the same time. 2) If you let your opponent get these void ray numbers, no composition of attacking units beats that. So if you don't beat Protoss earlier, your only hope are good fungals or abducting one by one. 3) This doesn't make much sense to me. How come you had a 172 supply army? I'm quite sure you didn't have that many roaches if you lost the fight. Re 1: I did some roaches expecting that he would just go with it. That's why I had them. Pure lings would have definitely been a loss Re 2: So basically what you're saying is in a ZvP I should just gg out if it goes past the 20 minute mark because the deathball is in fact unbeatable? Not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely asking. Corruptors vs void rays are absolutely lol-worthy. Mutas and hydras seem to be the correct answer to void rays. I just find it flabbergasting that nearly double the muta numbers didn't at least kill say, half of that army, where I could reinforce and try again. Re 3: You are correct, I originally put my army first then changed the wording, it was 50 roaches and 16 hydras. I try not to give into the toss imba crowd. I don't (usually) have a lot of trouble with protoss, but the engagements I do lose are ones like above. Where a giant amount of units is outclassed by the few. In that Muta/void ray encounter, 59 mutas is 12800 resources. 34 void rays is 13600, fairly even army cost. Mutas do splash damage, void rays do not do any additional damage vs mutas. I don't see why that at all should have been as lopsided as it was. It just doesn't make sense.
The first scenario you listed is a bit of a difficult one to hold. You had the right idea, you just need to get your positioning and micro right (and probably macro better too). If you're going double upgraded lings, you need to have the roach warren for "emergency roaches" to hold pushes like this; the melee upgrades are fine.
The second scenario is a very difficult situation to handle as well. Once the void ray count gets high enough, you can't do a direct engagement. After a certain point in the game, if you haven't won yet, you need to start turtling behind spores and relying on fungals and/or viper pulls to pick off the void rays. If you try to engage directly, you'll just lose. Against middleish numbers of void rays (~10ish), you can rely on 6-8 queens + corruptors. Queens are really good versus void rays. If you're doing the lategame muta switch like Jaedong, your goal is generally to base trade anyway. (Also, if you're wondering why void rays are cost efficient compared to mutas, it's because they can't be made 40 at a time :p).
Final scenario is kind of wonky. Roach/hydra isn't...REALLY a good composition versus Terran. But if you insist on it, you have to remember a few things: 1) Roach/hydra has to get a full surround (or as close as possible) on the Terran army; 2) you need about equal numbers of roaches and hydras; and 3) After the Terran has >~70 army supply, you need to start thinking about adding on infestors.
As for Protoss imba...well, I played Protoss for two years and...honestly, it feels much harder from this perspective hahahaha. I'm not sure, I think you just have to really dig in and defend super hard when you need to; if you can hold off a Protoss push you'll almost always find yourself at least even or ahead.
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On March 30 2014 03:09 astiesan wrote:Re 2: So basically what you're saying is in a ZvP I should just gg out if it goes past the 20 minute mark because the deathball is in fact unbeatable? Not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely asking. Corruptors vs void rays are absolutely lol-worthy. Mutas and hydras seem to be the correct answer to void rays. I just find it flabbergasting that nearly double the muta numbers didn't at least kill say, half of that army, where I could reinforce and try again.
if you're anything like me, your problem and source of frustration could be that you're a patient, macro-oriented zerg who likes to play a careful, technical game on a healthy economy. maybe your strength isn't hitting timings or going for kill moves. i know that was my style when i started with zerg. unfortunately, when you are this kind of player you can sometimes run into a situation you feel ends up being "amove vs amove", although of course that's never really all there is to a game
when you play zerg at a level where decent economy and macro mechanics aren't simply going to autowin in the lategame, you have to reach an understanding that certain armies the other 2 races can build require more than just an equal supply and a decent surround. obviously, deathballs can snowball (snowdeathball?) into something VERY difficult to handle for a zerg player, and this goes for more than just the void ray scenario you're describing
the only "easy" answer (and i say "easy" lightly) to successful defensive deathball play, as has been shown at pro level, involves swarm hosts, air units and static D. the alternative to that is to improve your understanding of timings (not just "hitting a timing" with a build, but understanding where and when your opponent is vulnerable and moving quickly to exploit it, at ANY point in the game). force your opponent to move his army somewhere it doesn't want to be. learn where and when to basetrade. start thinking about tech timings that will leave him vulnerable to a big attack or all-in. be patient not only in your overall playstyle but in engagements (e.g. don't panic and throw roach/hydra into forcefields). learn how to analyze the results of an engagement so you can remax correctly and you don't end up losing a game where you were 5k ahead in bank.
i know it's frustrating to think "why can't i just do what my opponent does with equal or better army value and better macro and win"? but you still have to blame yourself. as sc2john alluded to, part of the reason zerg works this way is because no other race has the ability to pull an army out of a hat full of larvae the way we do. this is the reason our economy is so scary for other races. if they go for a timing and we scout it, we can build a huge army and fight it off. if we don't, we can drone to the moon. when you choose to play this race, you have to accept its weaknesses and understand its strengths
good luck!
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Hey guys havent played sc2 in almost 1 year. Are blade55555 's guides still viable?
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On March 30 2014 10:44 Dynamitekid wrote:
Hey guys havent played sc2 in almost 1 year. Are blade55555 's guides still viable?
They are!
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So I've been opening the same way in ZvT since WoL (hatch first > 4 queen > double gas @ 5:00 > 3rd @ ~6:30 > +1/+1 > Lair > bane best > muta ling bling). It's extremely standard -- if a bit dated, but it works fine in platinum. The thing, I've gotten pretty bored of doing the same opener every time for a year or more.
I've been trying 2 base muta builds lately, opening 15h, 16p, 17g, taking 2 drones off gas at 100 for ling speed, then starting Lair and 3 more extractors as soon as my single gas-mining drone gathers 100 gas (usually between 6:00-6:30). I still get 4 queens and start a 2x evo + 1 spine wall around 6:00 to defend against hellions, and hopefully make the T think I'm going to startresearch 1/1 upgrades ASAP. However, I haven't been starting any upgrades OR a bane best until my spire is done and I have made a round of mutas with all the gas I've been banking. After my mutas are out and harassing the Terran, I double expand and start my upgrades/bane nest.
I've had great success against mech builds and 1/1/1 banshee builds so far, but I'm wondering if delaying my upgrades and my baneling nest until AFTER I start my mutas (I can usually make 8-10 when my spire finishes) is too risky. I suppose I could spend 300 gas on +1/+1 and bane nest while my Lair is still morphing, and only make 5-6 mutas when my spire pops, but I really want the build to be more muta-focused, and want to make enough of them to pose a threat
I'm worried that by delaying upgrades and banelings so much, I might be vulnerable to early/midgame bio timings and the like. What I want to know is this: What are optimal times to start a baneling best and +1/+1, given that my goal is to get a good sized round of mutas out ASAP (without dying to early attacks)???
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^
sure you can delay your upgrades and compensate it with economy IF you are going for a big attack while you are at +1+1 and the terrans +2+2 isnt finished. you mostly have to, but that also requires very clean playing after the mutas. no supply blocks, good injects and making a ton of drones while researching your upgrades.
either way, you have to do some kind of damage with your mutas or with the attack so you can ignore the lack of upgrades by having a big production.
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On March 30 2014 03:51 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2014 03:09 astiesan wrote:On March 29 2014 19:59 velvex wrote:On March 29 2014 15:29 astiesan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I am high gold at the moment.
I'm having trouble with my play and I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't have the replays on hand, but I can upload them if you would like with a bit of time.
I have a problem with losing battles that it makes no sense for me to lose, i.e. losing a battle in which I am NOT hard countered and have a supply and/or upgrade advantage.
I will give three examples
1) ZvP -- Protoss attempts a DT rush. I had spores, it was scouted, I sustained minimal losses. His followup was to morph the remaining DTs into archons. He proceeded to push into my base with 3 archons and 5 zealots. My army was 2 queens (at main hatchery, this was alterzim stronghold), 24 lings with +1/+1, and 10 roaches with +0/+1.
I lost every single unit. He lost three zealots. At that point he rolled over and destroyed my base while I literally stared at the screen stunned that 8 units killed 36 units. GG.
2) Also ZvP -- Extremely late macro game. 5 base zerg vs 3 base protoss. Blows have been traded back and forth with ground armies. He's about mined out. I see his army (consisting of 34 void rays only) in the center of the map as he kills one of my overlords. I decide to move in since he's exposed and away from nexus cannon and his static defense. I have 59 mutalisks, which converge from the south and meet them. He is on 3/3/3. I'm on 3/3 as well, as this is a late game scenario.
I lost all 59 mutas. He lost 6 void rays. That was gg.
3) ZvT -- In an open field engagement, I lost to 70 +1/+1 marines without combat shield + 4 medivacs. My forces were 70 +2/+2 roaches and 16 +2/+2 hydralisks. Neither side had a real concave, it looked like trench warfare in a line without the trenches. I flanked him from the side on creep and then attacked into his line. I lost everything. He still had 3 of the 4 medivacs and 26 marines remaining. No reinforcements from either side contributed to this battle. He proceeded to reinforce with what he had streaming across the map and mow over me. GG. 1) If I'm not mistaken, that was a 1350/250 mineral/gas Zerg army versus a 1250/750 mineral/gas Protoss army. Archons can kill a lot of zerglings with their splash and zealots can – under circumstances – kill roaches quite well if the roach number isn't too high. Also, you shouldn't really go for melee upgrades and roaches at the same time. 2) If you let your opponent get these void ray numbers, no composition of attacking units beats that. So if you don't beat Protoss earlier, your only hope are good fungals or abducting one by one. 3) This doesn't make much sense to me. How come you had a 172 supply army? I'm quite sure you didn't have that many roaches if you lost the fight. Re 1: I did some roaches expecting that he would just go with it. That's why I had them. Pure lings would have definitely been a loss Re 2: So basically what you're saying is in a ZvP I should just gg out if it goes past the 20 minute mark because the deathball is in fact unbeatable? Not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely asking. Corruptors vs void rays are absolutely lol-worthy. Mutas and hydras seem to be the correct answer to void rays. I just find it flabbergasting that nearly double the muta numbers didn't at least kill say, half of that army, where I could reinforce and try again. Re 3: You are correct, I originally put my army first then changed the wording, it was 50 roaches and 16 hydras. I try not to give into the toss imba crowd. I don't (usually) have a lot of trouble with protoss, but the engagements I do lose are ones like above. Where a giant amount of units is outclassed by the few. In that Muta/void ray encounter, 59 mutas is 12800 resources. 34 void rays is 13600, fairly even army cost. Mutas do splash damage, void rays do not do any additional damage vs mutas. I don't see why that at all should have been as lopsided as it was. It just doesn't make sense. The first scenario you listed is a bit of a difficult one to hold. You had the right idea, you just need to get your positioning and micro right (and probably macro better too). If you're going double upgraded lings, you need to have the roach warren for "emergency roaches" to hold pushes like this; the melee upgrades are fine. The second scenario is a very difficult situation to handle as well. Once the void ray count gets high enough, you can't do a direct engagement. After a certain point in the game, if you haven't won yet, you need to start turtling behind spores and relying on fungals and/or viper pulls to pick off the void rays. If you try to engage directly, you'll just lose. Against middleish numbers of void rays (~10ish), you can rely on 6-8 queens + corruptors. Queens are really good versus void rays. If you're doing the lategame muta switch like Jaedong, your goal is generally to base trade anyway. (Also, if you're wondering why void rays are cost efficient compared to mutas, it's because they can't be made 40 at a time :p). Final scenario is kind of wonky. Roach/hydra isn't...REALLY a good composition versus Terran. But if you insist on it, you have to remember a few things: 1) Roach/hydra has to get a full surround (or as close as possible) on the Terran army; 2) you need about equal numbers of roaches and hydras; and 3) After the Terran has >~70 army supply, you need to start thinking about adding on infestors. As for Protoss imba...well, I played Protoss for two years and...honestly, it feels much harder from this perspective hahahaha. I'm not sure, I think you just have to really dig in and defend super hard when you need to; if you can hold off a Protoss push you'll almost always find yourself at least even or ahead.
About the second scenario (late game toss), I would add something to the very sound advice SC2John wrote ; what he told here is very important but easy to be overlooked by a gold level player, as even I in diamond would not have fully understood what he meant back in last year, and generally speaking I was not getting the whole "can't engage P directly" thing, not sure if I needed to harass more or just kill the P before he gets his deathball.
Now everything is much more clear for me thanks to a thread about Zerg I read on this very forum.
Here is the thing : if you reach a certain point in Zerg economical development, there is very little Protoss can do to win.
You said you gathered 59 mutas. Hell! In my games I never reach that amount, but I can say that if I can gather at least 40 in any circumstance in which P is on 3 bases and I am on 5+, then it is nearly impossible for me to loose. The only thing you need to remember is don't engage the deathball.You just can't fight the Protoss head on after some point, there is no easy way of defeating his deathball. You only have 2 solutions:
- Turtling with SH and mass static defense. This requires some good micro, use of many different units at the same time, including vipers and infestors. It's a tad difficult at gold level, but if your set up is good it is almost unbreakable. It works best on narrow maps and not at all on wide open 4 players maps.
- Switching to mass mutas as you did. Thanks to the mobility of mutas, you have a very strong base trading capacity, and unless you are behind in economy (in which case this switch should not work, but still might vs unprepared protosses), you will be able to destroy all the enemy buildings before he does and win the game. Just attack high priority buildings or units first (like probes, pylons which power warpgates and stargates, core, forge, nexi and canons) and back if P comes to defend. With 59 mutas, he can't warp enough stalkers to defend in base. He NEEDS to kill your bases with his army, so expect this and prepare beforehand by researching burrow and sending a few drones all other the map. If you have 10000+ minerals, build a ton of spores while your mutas are building at your main near your ramp, as well as in your other bases. Just be sure to keep enough drones or money to keep unburrowing and building hatcheries in wierd spots. If he splits his army to find you, go and kill the most vulnerable detachment with your mutas (no the one with archons inside), then go back to killing his building. Don't waste time on unimportant structure before making sure he is not rebuilding a base somewhere and massing canons. To do that, split your remaining ovies (which should have speed) and send them in remaining base locations. Honestly, 59 mutas is a nightmare for any protoss because of this, and almost everytime an unwinnable situation for them unless you make a big mistake. The only way for them to win is to "not let the zerg get there", therefore all the aggression they put on you before you get your fith
If you need more advice on this one I'll be happy to provide you with replays of this (I'm high diamond on EU).
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On March 31 2014 17:19 DjayEl wrote:
Here is the thing : if you reach a certain point in Zerg economical development, there is very little Protoss can do to win.
I get to 5 bases most games and hardly ever beat toss.
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EPT
