EPTI thought drone scouting was putting you further behind than pooling first whithout scouting... :/
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 158
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I thought drone scouting was putting you further behind than pooling first whithout scouting... :/ | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
What Pastor wrote pretty much nailes it, I have problems with reapers especially if they bring 3 of them and try to snipe queens. I actually think that against decent opponents I'm much better off with pool first vs 3 reapers because I usually manage to defend without losing a drone and without wasting larvae/money on lings. Easier to spread creep and chase the reapers away from stopping it too. Normally after grabbing gas I drone hard, get speedlings and get my upgrades rolling early. After that lair for overseer and fast baneling speed then get mutas when gas allows, ofc I take a third sometime around 6-7 I think. Normally the time a reaper jumps into my main my queen pops, I don't mind practising micro and stuff but reapers >_> I just hate the bastards so much jump in and out and dances and kills and then they regenerate. Not even fun to micro slow lings against its just a losing affair, they could micro all day. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
This was an advice from a friend to get a better start against reaper's openings. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On March 23 2014 07:02 DjayEl wrote: What do you do with that pool first in ZvT ? Just go 15 pool 15 hatch and play normal, or take a much faster gas ? (Which is more likely to put you behind). What is really tge benefit of going pool first vs reapers ? Faster zergling ? I thought drone scouting was putting you further behind than pooling first whithout scouting... :/ Play it as if you were playing a zvz pool first. 15p 15h 15/16g queen production from nat and main going up to 4/5 queens per preference. Play it out normal from there. RaiZ nailed the point of pool first. Also you have the queen out about the same time the reapers turn up, works out nicely. Sadly I am going away tomorrow for 8 days (/'cry no starcraft in the campervan), I was going to test the difference between pool/hatch first with timings around speed hitting/queens hitting/drone counts etc. If someone could do that it would be amazing. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On March 23 2014 05:10 Jowj wrote: For what its worth, I agree with you that its a decent "safety" build for people who aren't confident vs reaper. However I'll also add that I don't think it should be practiced primarily at all, and then only practiced when above mid masters. Just hatch first-ing in TvZ is what 99% of the pros do (really the only pro I know who pools first with any regularity is Life), and will force you to learn to micro better vs reapers. Oh, also it changes the timings you need to know on when to stop droning, when to build certain structures, etc. Over all its more efficient to practice hatch first if you have an eye towards improving. Source: high masters Zerg who does both builds on occasion. unless you are really committing to practicing the game and getting good enough to compete in small tournaments, i don't think it matters at all. i agree with giving people the facts about the differences it makes, but if you're, say, a diamond zerg playing on ladder, i think it's a needless restriction. a lot of middling players know the pain of feeling weak or greedy when using hatch first, and a lot of people simply play the game for a fun competition and don't have a bunch of money or pride riding on it. for those players, pool first vs terran is just fine in my opinion. will it give you a disadvantage that might lose you a small percentage of close games? yeah, i guess. will it tank your winrate and make the matchup less fun and incredibly difficult? no. unless you're a serious player grinding your way to grandmasters, i don't think pool first zvt should be discouraged as harshly as it is professionals hatch first 99% of the time because they're good enough. if you don't feel you're good enough, you don't have to. there's no obligation to play as if you're trying to be soulkey one day. if there were, then a lot of the threads in this forum about alternative/wonky builds would be useless because they're "only good on ladder" or "won't beat pros" | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 23 2014 18:56 ThePastor wrote: Play it as if you were playing a zvz pool first. 15p 15h 15/16g queen production from nat and main going up to 4/5 queens per preference. Play it out normal from there. RaiZ nailed the point of pool first. Also you have the queen out about the same time the reapers turn up, works out nicely. Sadly I am going away tomorrow for 8 days (/'cry no starcraft in the campervan), I was going to test the difference between pool/hatch first with timings around speed hitting/queens hitting/drone counts etc. If someone could do that it would be amazing. I'd love to do some more thorough research on the differences between the builds but sadly my builds are far from crisp in their execution and I'm fairly sure any test I make would be pretty inaccurate anyway. What does pique my interest though is the drone count pool vs hatch first, I'm thinking that pool first might even be better economically depending on how well you deal with the reapers. If you lose 2 drones going to hatch first and makes 6 zerglings to defend thats 5 drones "lost" compared to pool first where I only lose drones extremely rarely and never gets the early lings. Not to mention the faster inject/cs whichever you choose. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On March 25 2014 17:28 Shuffleblade wrote: I'd love to do some more thorough research on the differences between the builds but sadly my builds are far from crisp in their execution and I'm fairly sure any test I make would be pretty inaccurate anyway. What does pique my interest though is the drone count pool vs hatch first, I'm thinking that pool first might even be better economically depending on how well you deal with the reapers. If you lose 2 drones going to hatch first and makes 6 zerglings to defend thats 5 drones "lost" compared to pool first where I only lose drones extremely rarely and never gets the early lings. Not to mention the faster inject/cs whichever you choose. AFAIK the faster queen kinda compensates for the loss of a hatchery. That being said, you shouldn't los 6 lings and 2 drones vs reapers, and if you get injects before 2nd hatch, you'll mine off one base and be less efficient. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP gate expand into quicl 3rd.SC2Replay Should I punish him in some way? he moved out at 10 min and I had nothing cause I was taking my 4th and droning and had to gg. Seems like he has nothing, but I'm pretty sure there is nothing I can do to attack him really. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 25 2014 18:25 SC2Toastie wrote: AFAIK the faster queen kinda compensates for the loss of a hatchery. That being said, you shouldn't los 6 lings and 2 drones vs reapers, and if you get injects before 2nd hatch, you'll mine off one base and be less efficient. My arguement is that if you make 6 lings to handle the 3 reapers that is 3 less drones made and since you cant really push out until after speed hits anyway against reapers unless you pick them off the lings are deadweight and could have been 3 drones. | ||
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Holannyeong
Spain39 Posts
I'm a Silver scrub and I tend to forget scouting because I want to center on macro. For which build should I change the ZvT one? Also, which build to follow in ZvP to not go blindly? | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On March 25 2014 19:07 DjayEl wrote: What do you do vs Protoss who open gate expand into super greedy 3rd like that: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP gate expand into quicl 3rd.SC2Replay Should I punish him in some way? he moved out at 10 min and I had nothing cause I was taking my 4th and droning and had to gg. Seems like he has nothing, but I'm pretty sure there is nothing I can do to attack him really. Can't watch replay sorry sitting in a camper van on my phone. Generally speaking if you find out that the third is there and it is already gated and Cannon protected then it is to late to pressure, so take a fourth. If you see it while it is only a nexus and it just went down you can really pick what to do. Attack or expand. | ||
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Marcinko
South Africa1014 Posts
On March 26 2014 00:59 Holannyeong wrote: So, I've tried playing the 3 Roach Rush that Seed.Plebs posted on Reddit versus T but it hasn't really got any success yet. For ZvZ I just do some Baneling Nest "safe opening" posted by SC2 Tutorial Central (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3QqMnUa7zk) and in PvP I pretty much go blindly getting a 3rd whenever I have minerals floating around and trying to macro up to Roaches and Hydras, 50% of the time the P decides to push and I have no shit. I'm a Silver scrub and I tend to forget scouting because I want to center on macro. For which build should I change the ZvT one? Also, which build to follow in ZvP to not go blindly? How I got out of silver into gold was with one build order for all the match ups. It is a 2 base roach timing. I will admit it isn't the best build but it got me the results I wanted. 14 Pool 14 Hatch When hatch done, transfer drones + 2 spine at natural 4 Queens in total @6:00 min x4 gas Start with lair upgrade. @7:00 x2 evo going for +2armor +2range @7:25 roach Get roach speed. At about 13 min attack. Just search FilterSC on youtube, sure you'll find it. Like I said, not the best build in the world but it is pretty strong in Silver and will help you improve on your macro since at 8 min you should have 50 drones. Good luck | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On March 20 2014 17:40 DjayEl wrote: You seem to do this in reaction to him going Forge before Nexus and not him canoning you (he had not put any pylon yet). Is it a safe way to play in general, or do you felt in this game specifically that he was going to put canons, like because his probe was still stalking near your base ? Can you do this after he puts canons as a reaction as well, or build a hatch in his main base if he somewhat block his natural, or would it be a waste of minerals ? I'd like to do something that works safely and consistently vs Masters level players. Does it work everytime for you ?  I think it works very consistently, and doesn't seem to be a gimmick (that is, I don't think I'm winning simply because they don't know how to adapt, it's just that there's no good protoss response). I would rather go 15p, 16 block with proxy hatch, then eventually take my natural. That's how important I think it is. I don't think an in-base hatch is anywhere near as powerful, simply because it allows him to get the nexus at about the same time. The biggest advantage of protoss fast expand is that he gets to double his probe production and chronoboost, which means he can keep pace with zerg econ. So you let him have that nexus, and then you basically commit to producing units in his base, so he knows what is coming. So he can prepare easily, and if he doesn't die, then he's way ahead on econ and behind a wall you can't break. If you block his base, you can always elect to not build units at all, and you have still accomplished enough. It is up to him to react properly. I think you can do this as a reaction just fine, but you will want to be aware of the timings (you might not get the queen out in time). Either way, blocking his nexus for so long means that he spent something like his first 400+ minerals (minimum of pylon-forge-cannon) on a wall that does nothing. Again, the most difficult part is often just getting the hatch down. Here is another case where I do it in response to forge-first (toss is high diamond) and he does what I consider the best reaction (pulling probes to help dps the hatchery): http://drop.sc/377550 In this game, he pulls probes to kill the hatch faster (this ensures that I don't get the queen out). As a result, I don't even start the queen, I use the minerals to take my natural. Basically, instead of a long-term block of the natural, I get to even up the econ, which puts me in a good position for the roach pressure (i.e., I have extra minerals to make drones on the inject after the roaches). I watch for a nexus with my overlord, and I don't see one, so I can guess that it's a 4gate. No expo and the chrono on cyber means 4gate or DT, and my subsequent roach poke shows many stalkers (as opposed to 1-2 stalkers to clear scouting overlords while he goes DT), so I can pretty safely call it a 4gate attempt. He also warped the stalkers defensively after seeing my roaches, and instead of committing to the 4gate, he built a nexus--which I see with my overlord. So I go home and take my third, keeping some scouts at the front. Note that I am building my third kind of soon after he builds his natural--definitely before his nexus finishes. That is pretty much the dream of every 3hatch-before-pool greedy macro zerg, and I do it safely behind a bunch of roaches, creep connecting my bases, watching his front with lings, and two queens. I think this game is a good example of a proper protoss response, and even if you argued every point I made, I think most people would concede that the zerg ends up about equal on econ, but you have roaches and your third is, at worst, right on time. Unfortunately, in this game, nothing is worth discussing after this point because he gets supply blocked so badly and so often that it doesn't really matter what he does. If we go way back to your original question, though, maybe your anti-cannon rush approach should just be to tech up and get roaches. It is much less risky, and as long as you don't go all-in (just a heavy timing), you can drone up behind it and usually end up pretty solid). And you can definitely do it in response to him getting cannons, though it will still be loads better if you spot the pylon as early as possible. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On March 24 2014 04:29 Waise wrote: unless you are really committing to practicing the game and getting good enough to compete in small tournaments, i don't think it matters at all. i agree with giving people the facts about the differences it makes, but if you're, say, a diamond zerg playing on ladder, i think it's a needless restriction. a lot of middling players know the pain of feeling weak or greedy when using hatch first, and a lot of people simply play the game for a fun competition and don't have a bunch of money or pride riding on it. for those players, pool first vs terran is just fine in my opinion. will it give you a disadvantage that might lose you a small percentage of close games? yeah, i guess. will it tank your winrate and make the matchup less fun and incredibly difficult? no. unless you're a serious player grinding your way to grandmasters, i don't think pool first zvt should be discouraged as harshly as it is professionals hatch first 99% of the time because they're good enough. if you don't feel you're good enough, you don't have to. there's no obligation to play as if you're trying to be soulkey one day. if there were, then a lot of the threads in this forum about alternative/wonky builds would be useless because they're "only good on ladder" or "won't beat pros" I really dislike pool first in ZvT against reapers, unless you go 14/14 on daedalus point, or you are a disciple of Life. The problem is that you have less production, even though it starts earlier, which makes it more difficult to defend. So it is actually MORE effective against reapers to go hatch first and get double queens. Let me explain. Your average 15h 16p 17g ZvT should progress like this (note that each stage is tuned to minimally defend without taking damage): 1) hatch and pool finish, start one pair of lings and one queen at each hatch, start mining gas. 2) reaper shows up and you micro drones for a bit. 3) lings pop and chase reapers, another reaper shows up and lings start to die. 4) queens pop and push reapers back. now you can control cliffs with lings and queens while speed builds (if many reapers, add lings), so it's difficult for him to reach drones. 5) speed finishes so reapers were sent home in anticipation. hellions now show up 6) you chose to go either 4 queen, build lots of lings to handle hellions, or get a few roaches to shut down hellions. As I understand, with pool first, you still have to build lings, and your single queen isn't quite enough to defend properly, and you don't get creep spreading at your natural to help queens defend, which is just asking for a bunker. So you increase the period of time where you have slow lings and not enough queens, which is a Bad Time, and isn't really worth the tradeoff of skipping the drones-vs-reapers phase. Add in the risk of a bunker and it's no longer a tradeoff, it's just worse. Perhaps a pool-first expert will correct me, but I think this is why 99% of pro players go hatch first. The econ thing is a significant issue, but really, I find pool-hatch to be a weaker anti-reaper option overall. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On March 26 2014 15:41 6xFPCs wrote: I really dislike pool first in ZvT against reapers, unless you go 14/14 on daedalus point, or you are a disciple of Life. The problem is that you have less production, even though it starts earlier, which makes it more difficult to defend. So it is actually MORE effective against reapers to go hatch first and get double queens. Let me explain. Your average 15h 16p 17g ZvT should progress like this (note that each stage is tuned to minimally defend without taking damage): 1) hatch and pool finish, start one pair of lings and one queen at each hatch, start mining gas. 2) reaper shows up and you micro drones for a bit. 3) lings pop and chase reapers, another reaper shows up and lings start to die. 4) queens pop and push reapers back. now you can control cliffs with lings and queens while speed builds (if many reapers, add lings), so it's difficult for him to reach drones. 5) speed finishes so reapers were sent home in anticipation. hellions now show up 6) you chose to go either 4 queen, build lots of lings to handle hellions, or get a few roaches to shut down hellions. As I understand, with pool first, you still have to build lings, and your single queen isn't quite enough to defend properly, and you don't get creep spreading at your natural to help queens defend, which is just asking for a bunker. So you increase the period of time where you have slow lings and not enough queens, which is a Bad Time, and isn't really worth the tradeoff of skipping the drones-vs-reapers phase. Add in the risk of a bunker and it's no longer a tradeoff, it's just worse. Perhaps a pool-first expert will correct me, but I think this is why 99% of pro players go hatch first. The econ thing is a significant issue, but really, I find pool-hatch to be a weaker anti-reaper option overall. again you seem to be assuming standard high level play. i'm not making recommendations on how to succeed in top masters and GM, i'm saying that if you are a mid league ladder player who doesn't compete in tournaments and isn't in a clan or anything like that, you can pool first zvt and be pretty much fine. the idea isn't that "pool first is stronger against reapers," it's that some players are not confident in drone micro and simply more comfortable putting the pool down first in the event of various types of cheese or aggression, not only reapers or reaper cheese. the "tradeoff" is a variable in this case which depends on the zerg player's ability to micro and react correctly to specific builds and the likelihood that terran will have the game sense to punish it. in platinum or diamond, your average ladder terran is probably more likely to be LESS aggressive against a pool first than they are to have the game sense and micro to make an advantage out of it. hell, sometimes terrans at that level do weird things like gasless rax expand, only build 1 reaper, build a marine and then a reaper, etc. i'm not sure if there are "rules" in this thread that you MUST advise players only how to imitate pro level play, but i think it's shortsighted and arrogant to refuse to admit that some things are just plain fine on ladder if they make you comfortable. some people in mid levels insist on 9 scouting because they lack confidence for whatever reason. some people in this thread would say that's "bad" and that you should never ever 9 scout, and in masters+ that's true, but not everyone who comes in this thread is in masters and a lot of them will never be in masters. one of the reasons people get frustrated with the game is because they try too hard to play exactly like the pros when they aren't good enough or confident enough to pull it off. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 26 2014 15:41 6xFPCs wrote: I really dislike pool first in ZvT against reapers, unless you go 14/14 on daedalus point, or you are a disciple of Life. The problem is that you have less production, even though it starts earlier, which makes it more difficult to defend. So it is actually MORE effective against reapers to go hatch first and get double queens. Let me explain. Your average 15h 16p 17g ZvT should progress like this (note that each stage is tuned to minimally defend without taking damage): 1) hatch and pool finish, start one pair of lings and one queen at each hatch, start mining gas. 2) reaper shows up and you micro drones for a bit. 3) lings pop and chase reapers, another reaper shows up and lings start to die. 4) queens pop and push reapers back. now you can control cliffs with lings and queens while speed builds (if many reapers, add lings), so it's difficult for him to reach drones. 5) speed finishes so reapers were sent home in anticipation. hellions now show up 6) you chose to go either 4 queen, build lots of lings to handle hellions, or get a few roaches to shut down hellions. As I understand, with pool first, you still have to build lings, and your single queen isn't quite enough to defend properly, and you don't get creep spreading at your natural to help queens defend, which is just asking for a bunker. So you increase the period of time where you have slow lings and not enough queens, which is a Bad Time, and isn't really worth the tradeoff of skipping the drones-vs-reapers phase. Add in the risk of a bunker and it's no longer a tradeoff, it's just worse. Perhaps a pool-first expert will correct me, but I think this is why 99% of pro players go hatch first. The econ thing is a significant issue, but really, I find pool-hatch to be a weaker anti-reaper option overall. I'm a scrub plat player so can't really claim to "know what I'm talking about" in regards to high level play. I have however played pool first in at least a hundred ZvT and I never get any lings to defend pure reaper pressure(which means more drones) and get my queens out faster than hatch first and thus get my creep spread faster and have a safer time against any early pressure. Just the other day I feel I had pretty much a build order win against the "float to gold and then mass marine+bunker rush" on habitation station the extra fast queens made it a piece of cake to defend. I don't know where you get the preconception that hatch first gets you queens out later, its the other way around. Sure the queens are not timed and pop at the same time but you get faster queens with pool first, if you start another from your main the second your first finishes ofc. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On March 27 2014 12:43 Zorkmid wrote: What in the fuck are you supposed to do vs mass ravens? I made Swarm hosts, static D, broods, corruptors, infestors, vipers was on 12 gas all game, spread my broods, and infestors. He sim cities around PFs that he gets by dropping like 40 auto turrets, even baneling busted one of his expos. can you send me the replay link or post it here? i can try to send you one of my most recent plays. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 26 2014 16:34 Waise wrote: again you seem to be assuming standard high level play. i'm not making recommendations on how to succeed in top masters and GM, i'm saying that if you are a mid league ladder player who doesn't compete in tournaments and isn't in a clan or anything like that, you can pool first zvt and be pretty much fine. the idea isn't that "pool first is stronger against reapers," it's that some players are not confident in drone micro and simply more comfortable putting the pool down first in the event of various types of cheese or aggression, not only reapers or reaper cheese. the "tradeoff" is a variable in this case which depends on the zerg player's ability to micro and react correctly to specific builds and the likelihood that terran will have the game sense to punish it. in platinum or diamond, your average ladder terran is probably more likely to be LESS aggressive against a pool first than they are to have the game sense and micro to make an advantage out of it. hell, sometimes terrans at that level do weird things like gasless rax expand, only build 1 reaper, build a marine and then a reaper, etc. i'm not sure if there are "rules" in this thread that you MUST advise players only how to imitate pro level play, but i think it's shortsighted and arrogant to refuse to admit that some things are just plain fine on ladder if they make you comfortable. some people in mid levels insist on 9 scouting because they lack confidence for whatever reason. some people in this thread would say that's "bad" and that you should never ever 9 scout, and in masters+ that's true, but not everyone who comes in this thread is in masters and a lot of them will never be in masters. one of the reasons people get frustrated with the game is because they try too hard to play exactly like the pros when they aren't good enough or confident enough to pull it off. This thread is based on improvement and naturally the best advice should be given to people who ask questions. Now, I personally agree that pool first in ZvT is either 1) a metagame move that only brilliant people like Life can pull off or 2) a lazy way to deal with reapers (as opposed to learning how to micro)...HOWEVER, I understand where you're coming from and I admit the result of going pool first vs. hatch first is not huge. I strongly discourage any bad habits such as blind 9-scouting, dumb cheese builds, and lazy, ineffective solutions to problems whenever I give people advice, no matter what their league. This is not only because they are looking for improvement and I'm literally giving them the best way to improve, but also because I think it's especially necessary to shy newer players away from bad habits so that they can improve at the game much more quickly (and naturally, enjoy the game more). The logic of "Well, his macro is bad so...maybe he can cheat some by using a horribly inefficient scout timing or build" never ceases to amaze me. Solid macro and good mechanics are the fundamental skills necessary to play SC2, and every lower level player should be steered in that direction. That is not to say that cheese and all-ins do not serve a function. They do. Like I wrote in my SC2 notes, cheese and all-ins serve the basis for understanding the game in small chunks. The most important thing to do when learning is focus on achieving perfect macro and efficiency, and that can be much more easily accomplished with a solid cheese or all-in than with a large, over-arching 20-minute strategy. This is directly related to why players who try to "imitate pros" can feel frustrated or upset with the game: in addition to their mechanics, their understanding of the game is incredibly shallow compared to a professional player, thus resulting in what feel like "random losses" and "ladder bullshit". Working on shorter strategies and focusing purely on execution and understanding of the build helps players improve much more quickly and confidently. All of this goes to say: Lower level players should never be given advice to cheat and cut corners to avoid learning mechanics but should instead be encouraged to work on certain specific areas with perfect accuracy and precision until they can confidently do it without thinking. /rant | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On March 27 2014 13:03 PanN wrote: can you send me the replay link or post it here? i can try to send you one of my most recent plays. I didn't save it. Ill turn on sc2gears and hope for another. | ||
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