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Russian Federation6 Posts
Hey guys, i'm a diamond zerg trying to push dem masters for the first time (what a nice time to try lol) and i'm in lost vs protoss.
Toss starts with 4gate pressure which i deal with, probably overreacting, then its just a snowball, i don't understand how do i deal with these 4 zealots while hes still producing the probes? I fell like i have no way of knowing that (OL pokes seem useless because he always can transfer from main) and if i don't produce army ill die to commitment.
After checking the replay i realise i have like 27 drones vs 44 probes and its already gg, but i don't see how to safely defend while still producing drones.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4836172
The question is: should i go roach, spines or pure ling queen? Should i remove from gas after speed? How do i deal with fake pressure or commitment?
I bm at the end, the game felt much closer than it was. Not proud.
Thanks for your time.
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On March 15 2014 08:24 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 05:03 DjayEl wrote:I'm sorry, the link to my replay should work now. I've seen Blade's guides to canon rushes, but still I am not fully satisfied. Thanks for your answer, if you could look at my replay it would be very much appreciated though  But I'd definitely try to panic less and don't pull all my drones if not needed. For information, in my game he did a 3 pylon block on top of my ramp then several canons below the ramp, then more canons to deny another hatch I attempted to build at my 3rd location. honestly i don't think i've ever faced a 3 pylon wall at the top of the ramp (maybe once ever? lol) so i'm not sure i know what the optimal response to that is. one thing i would say is that it's kind of suspicious how long his probe was running around your base. normally when toss knows your pool and hatch are going up, they say "ok, this is standard play" and either pylon block you, stick around and do a standard cannon rush on your natural, or just go home. they don't just run around your base losing mining time. in fact, i would almost start thinking about proxy 2gate in base if i saw the probe dancing around that long, which would prompt me to poke around my main. of course, this is me sitting back in hindsight and watching your replay, but i'm trying to think from the perspective of what i would try to look for to prevent this. for similar reasons, i like to send my second overlord to the natural and keep it there until lings are out so in theory if you keep on the suspicious probe and you SEE the pylons go up right away unlike in your game, what i would personally do is a big drone pull. at 2:45 you have 14 drones, not including the one building the hatch but including your extractor, which obviously you should cancel when you see the pylons if you're able. so if i saw it, i would have tried pulling 12 drones, 4 to each pylon. assuming you break the wall, if he builds a pylon on the low ground you can just go deny that too because there's no cannon. if a cannon goes up on the low ground, he'll still need to build a pylon since you're busting the 3 at the top. again, with apologies, i don't face this a lot and i'm basically theorycrafting in your actual situation, where you didn't see the pylons until it was too late (which i'm sure could easily happen to me too), i would drone to 24/6 instead of massing lings, then tech straight to roach. you either bust them all or you don't bust any of them. because you saw them so late, he can have cannons warping in on the low ground, so if you bust a single pylon the cannons will just be powered by the other two anyway, which is exactly what happened to you. i would have my forward overlord scouting protoss's base so i know whether i can push across the map and pressure him or if i should only build enough roaches to bust out and expand. i would have my rear overlord keeping an eye on how many cannons protoss is committing to the natural and also if he's going to try to follow it up with that weird proxy gateway shit they do sometimes, in which case you'll need to add spines and maybe lings. if it's an insane insane amount (and he was almost getting there) i would start considering swarm hosts. he even went nexus before gateway, his tech is so incredibly late and your overlord can walk around his base until like 10:00, so if you scout well and get swarm hosts on the map you can potentially just bust every single cannon for free and then straight up kill protoss with mass speedling. i've seen GMs do the roach and swarm host busts on stream, so this part isn't theorycraft
Thank you for this in-depth analysis, his canon rush was weird indeed, but I thought there was a simple rule I could follow not to die to this kind of cheese. But this is very interesting, especially the SH part, I would never have thought of what. I'll read through all of this again and try to remember it for the next time I face it on ladder
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Hi.
I often lose to Protoss gateway all ins (or possible with immortals), even if I scout them. I make lings and roaches, but usually, that just barely doesn't cut it and I die.
Is it maybe a good idea to start nonstop making queens in case of an all in? They have longer range and can use transfuse.
Another problem may be that I like having 1/1 for Zerglings out, is a 3 hatch into double ups build too greedy?
Kind regards
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On March 19 2014 08:03 SC2Toastie wrote:
Hi.
I often lose to Protoss gateway all ins (or possible with immortals), even if I scout them. I make lings and roaches, but usually, that just barely doesn't cut it and I die.
Is it maybe a good idea to start nonstop making queens in case of an all in? They have longer range and can use transfuse.
Another problem may be that I like having 1/1 for Zerglings out, is a 3 hatch into double ups build too greedy?
Kind regards
Making mass queens when you see an all in coming is a great response. Inject with the queen when it pops out then rally it to your army while creating another one. Means you always have injects going while getting a constant stream of queens on top of your larvae.
1/1 3 base lings is not too greedy. It is my most successful build. You just HAVE to be pro actively scouting. And as soon as you see an all in make sure you have ample lings well before hand so you can hit them when they move out. If you scout it when they get to your base you are screwed. If you let them walk to your base and then engage you are screwed. You want to be overwhelming him when he moves out.
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proper response to a terran who makes a super early factory (like around 3 mins in his wall) and reactors out hellions, then macros behind it? i scouted it as early as possible and knew hellions were coming, so i rushed roaches on 2 hatch with 1 base saturation, but i must have really overcommitted. i was expecting some kind of huge timing with terran building 4-5 hellions at a time, but he built his CC after the first couple of hellions and when my roaches pushed him back he just added widow mines and tanks and contained me on two base while taking his third. i was spending my larvae and money on an army to bust the contain, so by the time i took my third i had pretty much lost the game already. no replay, sorry, don't ask for one
looking back, i think a better response from me would have been to build the roach warren but skip roaches unless i see 8+ hellions, wall my natural with evos and a spine, add queens to defend the choke, and go 2 base muta since his army had zero anti-air other than widow mines. has anyone faced this style and how did you respond?
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United States4883 Posts
On March 19 2014 10:30 brickrd wrote:
proper response to a terran who makes a super early factory (like around 3 mins in his wall) and reactors out hellions, then macros behind it? i scouted it as early as possible and knew hellions were coming, so i rushed roaches on 2 hatch with 1 base saturation, but i must have really overcommitted. i was expecting some kind of huge timing with terran building 4-5 hellions at a time, but he built his CC after the first couple of hellions and when my roaches pushed him back he just added widow mines and tanks and contained me on two base while taking his third. i was spending my larvae and money on an army to bust the contain, so by the time i took my third i had pretty much lost the game already. no replay, sorry, don't ask for one
looking back, i think a better response from me would have been to build the roach warren but skip roaches unless i see 8+ hellions, wall my natural with evos and a spine, add queens to defend the choke, and go 2 base muta since his army had zero anti-air other than widow mines. has anyone faced this style and how did you respond?
Welcome to 2011. Just get an early spine crawler and defend with queens/lings as usual while using an overlord to keep an eye on his expansion. You'll probably need a roach warren and 3-4 roaches to take your 3rd, but it's not an overcommitment since the Terran delayed his own economy equally. Likewise, it's equally possible to go 2-base muta; if your opponent overcommits to hellions, the initial mutalisks can almost outright win the game.
On March 19 2014 08:03 SC2Toastie wrote:
Hi.
I often lose to Protoss gateway all ins (or possible with immortals), even if I scout them. I make lings and roaches, but usually, that just barely doesn't cut it and I die.
Is it maybe a good idea to start nonstop making queens in case of an all in? They have longer range and can use transfuse.
Another problem may be that I like having 1/1 for Zerglings out, is a 3 hatch into double ups build too greedy?
Kind regards
If anything, you probably just need better macro and/or positioning. Some maps like Heavy Rain, it can feel impossible to engage the Protoss army in all the chokes and you might need to sac the third base in order to get a better position. I don't think mass queens over roaches is useful since queens deal almost no damage, but if you somehow have extra minerals and not enough larva, go for it.
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I just played a Zerg who went mass muta and never stopped. Because of my poor connection I couldn't fungal his mutalisk. It's kind of a frustrating loss, because I was much better than him. Is there any other way to kill them? I tried going corruptor/hydra with some fungals, but nothing really seems to trade well...
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Hi guys,
What the hell do you do vs mass Carriers?
From time to time I get matched vs plat guys and for some reason they either cheese me or go mass carriers, and vs these I lose every time. I've tried pretty much everything, from mass hydra infestor/spores/vipers to a big muta switch like in a normal game, but it turns out it's much harder to base trade vs these than vs standard deathball because they are much less affected by static defense and my bases just go down too fast.
Here is a recent replay:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP carriers.SC2Replay
I'm quite surprised I never see these on pro matches, there must be an easy way to beat basic turtling into a-moving carriers, but so far I've always been surprised by how powerful these units were and right now I feel helpless.
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On March 20 2014 05:44 DjayEl wrote:Hi guys, What the hell do you do vs mass Carriers? From time to time I get matched vs plat guys and for some reason they either cheese me or go mass carriers, and vs these I lose every time. I've tried pretty much everything, from mass hydra infestor/spores/vipers to a big muta switch like in a normal game, but it turns out it's much harder to base trade vs these than vs standard deathball because they are much less affected by static defense and my bases just go down too fast. Here is a recent replay: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP carriers.SC2ReplayI'm quite surprised I never see these on pro matches, there must be an easy way to beat basic turtling into a-moving carriers, but so far I've always been surprised by how powerful these units were and right now I feel helpless.
last time i saw carriers pvz was on root petraeus' stream and he fought it pretty easily and effectively by identifying it relatively early (at like 2-4 carriers out), going viper mass corruptor and using patient abducts, which is what i do too. protoss can't be losing carriers before they're maxed with a huge bank, they're too much of a time and gas investment. if you've never played protoss, it can't really be explained to you how incredibly long carriers take to build
really it's about the abducts, i suppose you can use anything for the damage (hydras if there are no colossus/storm, could use fungals and/or ITs on interceptors) but i think it makes the most sense to go corruptor because that sets you up for the standard zvp long game of swarm host/corruptor/viper/brood lords/etc. and also because having your damage in the air lets you potentially get off abducts and trade against the army if it's just sitting in his main base or something. your corruptors are way more replaceable than his carriers
if there are a lot of void rays mixed in against your corruptors, which there should be, you just have to try to stay out of range with the abducts and ideally have infestors out to fungal them if they try to overcharge and chase your corruptors
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EDIT: I neglected to mention the critical fact that I scout on 10 or so in ZvP (more precisely, i use the drone from the extractor trick to scout), and that if you don't already have a drone out scouting, you might be out of luck in terms of getting the proxy hatch at his natural. I don't actually know though, because I always scout this early in ZvP, so I don't have much experience otherwise.
On March 16 2014 06:42 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 08:24 Waise wrote:On March 15 2014 05:03 DjayEl wrote:I'm sorry, the link to my replay should work now. I've seen Blade's guides to canon rushes, but still I am not fully satisfied. Thanks for your answer, if you could look at my replay it would be very much appreciated though But I'd definitely try to panic less and don't pull all my drones if not needed. For information, in my game he did a 3 pylon block on top of my ramp then several canons below the ramp, then more canons to deny another hatch I attempted to build at my 3rd location. honestly i don't think i've ever faced a 3 pylon wall at the top of the ramp (maybe once ever? lol) so i'm not sure i know what the optimal response to that is. one thing i would say is that it's kind of suspicious how long his probe was running around your base. normally when toss knows your pool and hatch are going up, they say "ok, this is standard play" and either pylon block you, stick around and do a standard cannon rush on your natural, or just go home. they don't just run around your base losing mining time. in fact, i would almost start thinking about proxy 2gate in base if i saw the probe dancing around that long, which would prompt me to poke around my main. of course, this is me sitting back in hindsight and watching your replay, but i'm trying to think from the perspective of what i would try to look for to prevent this. for similar reasons, i like to send my second overlord to the natural and keep it there until lings are out so in theory if you keep on the suspicious probe and you SEE the pylons go up right away unlike in your game, what i would personally do is a big drone pull. at 2:45 you have 14 drones, not including the one building the hatch but including your extractor, which obviously you should cancel when you see the pylons if you're able. so if i saw it, i would have tried pulling 12 drones, 4 to each pylon. assuming you break the wall, if he builds a pylon on the low ground you can just go deny that too because there's no cannon. if a cannon goes up on the low ground, he'll still need to build a pylon since you're busting the 3 at the top. again, with apologies, i don't face this a lot and i'm basically theorycrafting in your actual situation, where you didn't see the pylons until it was too late (which i'm sure could easily happen to me too), i would drone to 24/6 instead of massing lings, then tech straight to roach. you either bust them all or you don't bust any of them. because you saw them so late, he can have cannons warping in on the low ground, so if you bust a single pylon the cannons will just be powered by the other two anyway, which is exactly what happened to you. i would have my forward overlord scouting protoss's base so i know whether i can push across the map and pressure him or if i should only build enough roaches to bust out and expand. i would have my rear overlord keeping an eye on how many cannons protoss is committing to the natural and also if he's going to try to follow it up with that weird proxy gateway shit they do sometimes, in which case you'll need to add spines and maybe lings. if it's an insane insane amount (and he was almost getting there) i would start considering swarm hosts. he even went nexus before gateway, his tech is so incredibly late and your overlord can walk around his base until like 10:00, so if you scout well and get swarm hosts on the map you can potentially just bust every single cannon for free and then straight up kill protoss with mass speedling. i've seen GMs do the roach and swarm host busts on stream, so this part isn't theorycraft Thank you for this in-depth analysis, his canon rush was weird indeed, but I thought there was a simple rule I could follow not to die to this kind of cheese. But this is very interesting, especially the SH part, I would never have thought of what. I'll read through all of this again and try to remember it for the next time I face it on ladder
the replay link still doesn't work for me, but I deal with the three-pylon block by blocking his natural with a hatch and doing a one-base roach play to bust out.
replay is me (diamond, former masters) against a mid-masters protoss barcode (his record is 93-18 as of today). i do a proxy hatch in his natural, cancel my natural at the last moment, and go economical one-base roach.
(ignore everything after 12min or so, he does some weird carrier thing and i just flood hydras.)
http://drop.sc/377125
key points: he spends so much on getting the pylon block PLUS the 2nd cannon on my natural hatch that i know he can't deny a quick proxy hatch and queen, so i get a tumor down without a problem. 99% of the time, you can walk the queen over to the minerals so that it blocks a spot from a chasing zealot, and get it down. if he pulls probes, you should have a few lings built to deny a surround (don't lose your lings like i did, just hold position and wait). this tumor is critical, if it doesn't block the natural you might lose, this strategy relies on a blocked natural; it's so critical that if you mess it up, i would keep building lings to tangle with the zealot, and kite with your queen around the minerals until you have energy to try again. also make sure it is far enough back from the cannon that the sight range (longer than shooting range) doesn't reveal it.
from there i get a few roaches in his base, too. always use those larvae, remember that he's relying on a wall and cannons, and those larvae will pop behind his defenses.
anyway, the reason for all this is that denying his expo is nearly catastrophic for him, as he invested in a wall at his natural for no gain (no expo for him) and he invested in a wall against you that is mitigated by reactionary one-base roach play, which busts it cleanly. with a healthy drone econ behind it, you can take your natural and go knock on the door with roaches while not being significantly behind.
(it's still a toss-up for me whether clearing out all his buildings is better, or rushing him with roaches is better. open to opinions, but I think clearing his stuff is the safer macro play.)
from here, he will tech (only viable response as far as i can guess; toss generally gets double gas, and he can't expo in a timely fashion, and gateway counterattack is just stupid against 8 roaches). as you can see, i try to spot his tech and fail, so i just force the issue by walking to the front and pestering him. in fact, sometimes they die from this, if they did try to expo after building obs and two sentries or something.
proper response to each tech is obvious, but just in case: lair and spores for DT, burrow for blink/gateway all-in, spores and drones (move overlords in, too), then lair-hydra for stargate. if i see robo and immortals, I will break the wall and constantly produce lings (safeguard your roaches as he would for his immortal).
In all cases, take your third as soon as it's clear that you're safe. But don't let three void rays take you by surprise, or likewise DTs.
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On March 20 2014 06:28 6xFPCs wrote:EDIT: I neglected to mention the critical fact that I scout on 10 or so in ZvP (more precisely, i use the drone from the extractor trick to scout), and that if you don't already have a drone out scouting, you might be out of luck in terms of getting the proxy hatch at his natural. I don't actually know though, because I always scout this early in ZvP, so I don't have much experience otherwise. Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 06:42 DjayEl wrote:On March 15 2014 08:24 Waise wrote:On March 15 2014 05:03 DjayEl wrote:I'm sorry, the link to my replay should work now. I've seen Blade's guides to canon rushes, but still I am not fully satisfied. Thanks for your answer, if you could look at my replay it would be very much appreciated though But I'd definitely try to panic less and don't pull all my drones if not needed. For information, in my game he did a 3 pylon block on top of my ramp then several canons below the ramp, then more canons to deny another hatch I attempted to build at my 3rd location. honestly i don't think i've ever faced a 3 pylon wall at the top of the ramp (maybe once ever? lol) so i'm not sure i know what the optimal response to that is. one thing i would say is that it's kind of suspicious how long his probe was running around your base. normally when toss knows your pool and hatch are going up, they say "ok, this is standard play" and either pylon block you, stick around and do a standard cannon rush on your natural, or just go home. they don't just run around your base losing mining time. in fact, i would almost start thinking about proxy 2gate in base if i saw the probe dancing around that long, which would prompt me to poke around my main. of course, this is me sitting back in hindsight and watching your replay, but i'm trying to think from the perspective of what i would try to look for to prevent this. for similar reasons, i like to send my second overlord to the natural and keep it there until lings are out so in theory if you keep on the suspicious probe and you SEE the pylons go up right away unlike in your game, what i would personally do is a big drone pull. at 2:45 you have 14 drones, not including the one building the hatch but including your extractor, which obviously you should cancel when you see the pylons if you're able. so if i saw it, i would have tried pulling 12 drones, 4 to each pylon. assuming you break the wall, if he builds a pylon on the low ground you can just go deny that too because there's no cannon. if a cannon goes up on the low ground, he'll still need to build a pylon since you're busting the 3 at the top. again, with apologies, i don't face this a lot and i'm basically theorycrafting in your actual situation, where you didn't see the pylons until it was too late (which i'm sure could easily happen to me too), i would drone to 24/6 instead of massing lings, then tech straight to roach. you either bust them all or you don't bust any of them. because you saw them so late, he can have cannons warping in on the low ground, so if you bust a single pylon the cannons will just be powered by the other two anyway, which is exactly what happened to you. i would have my forward overlord scouting protoss's base so i know whether i can push across the map and pressure him or if i should only build enough roaches to bust out and expand. i would have my rear overlord keeping an eye on how many cannons protoss is committing to the natural and also if he's going to try to follow it up with that weird proxy gateway shit they do sometimes, in which case you'll need to add spines and maybe lings. if it's an insane insane amount (and he was almost getting there) i would start considering swarm hosts. he even went nexus before gateway, his tech is so incredibly late and your overlord can walk around his base until like 10:00, so if you scout well and get swarm hosts on the map you can potentially just bust every single cannon for free and then straight up kill protoss with mass speedling. i've seen GMs do the roach and swarm host busts on stream, so this part isn't theorycraft Thank you for this in-depth analysis, his canon rush was weird indeed, but I thought there was a simple rule I could follow not to die to this kind of cheese. But this is very interesting, especially the SH part, I would never have thought of what. I'll read through all of this again and try to remember it for the next time I face it on ladder the replay link still doesn't work for me, but I deal with the three-pylon block by blocking his natural with a hatch and doing a one-base roach play to bust out. replay is me (diamond, former masters) against a mid-masters protoss barcode (his record is 93-18 as of today). i do a proxy hatch in his natural, cancel my natural at the last moment, and go economical one-base roach. (ignore everything after 12min or so, he does some weird carrier thing and i just flood hydras.) http://drop.sc/377125key points: he spends so much on getting the pylon block PLUS the 2nd cannon on my natural hatch that i know he can't deny a quick proxy hatch and queen, so i get a tumor down without a problem. 99% of the time, you can walk the queen over to the minerals so that it blocks a spot from a chasing zealot, and get it down. if he pulls probes, you should have a few lings built to deny a surround (don't lose your lings like i did, just hold position and wait). this tumor is critical, if it doesn't block the natural you might lose, this strategy relies on a blocked natural; it's so critical that if you mess it up, i would keep building lings to tangle with the zealot, and kite with your queen around the minerals until you have energy to try again. also make sure it is far enough back from the cannon that the sight range (longer than shooting range) doesn't reveal it. from there i get a few roaches in his base, too. always use those larvae, remember that he's relying on a wall and cannons, and those larvae will pop behind his defenses. anyway, the reason for all this is that denying his expo is nearly catastrophic for him, as he invested in a wall at his natural for no gain (no expo for him) and he invested in a wall against you that is mitigated by reactionary one-base roach play, which busts it cleanly. with a healthy drone econ behind it, you can take your natural and go knock on the door with roaches while not being significantly behind. (it's still a toss-up for me whether clearing out all his buildings is better, or rushing him with roaches is better. open to opinions, but I think clearing his stuff is the safer macro play.) from here, he will tech (only viable response as far as i can guess; toss generally gets double gas, and he can't expo in a timely fashion, and gateway counterattack is just stupid against 8 roaches). as you can see, i try to spot his tech and fail, so i just force the issue by walking to the front and pestering him. in fact, sometimes they die from this, if they did try to expo after building obs and two sentries or something. proper response to each tech is obvious, but just in case: lair and spores for DT, burrow for blink/gateway all-in, spores and drones (move overlords in, too), then lair-hydra for stargate. if i see robo and immortals, I will break the wall and constantly produce lings (safeguard your roaches as he would for his immortal). In all cases, take your third as soon as it's clear that you're safe. But don't let three void rays take you by surprise, or likewise DTs.
You seem to do this in reaction to him going Forge before Nexus and not him canoning you (he had not put any pylon yet). Is it a safe way to play in general, or do you felt in this game specifically that he was going to put canons, like because his probe was still stalking near your base ? Can you do this after he puts canons as a reaction as well, or build a hatch in his main base if he somewhat block his natural, or would it be a waste of minerals ?
I'd like to do something that works safely and consistently vs Masters level players. Does it work everytime for you ?
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On March 20 2014 06:07 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 05:44 DjayEl wrote:Hi guys, What the hell do you do vs mass Carriers? From time to time I get matched vs plat guys and for some reason they either cheese me or go mass carriers, and vs these I lose every time. I've tried pretty much everything, from mass hydra infestor/spores/vipers to a big muta switch like in a normal game, but it turns out it's much harder to base trade vs these than vs standard deathball because they are much less affected by static defense and my bases just go down too fast. Here is a recent replay: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP carriers.SC2ReplayI'm quite surprised I never see these on pro matches, there must be an easy way to beat basic turtling into a-moving carriers, but so far I've always been surprised by how powerful these units were and right now I feel helpless. last time i saw carriers pvz was on root petraeus' stream and he fought it pretty easily and effectively by identifying it relatively early (at like 2-4 carriers out), going viper mass corruptor and using patient abducts, which is what i do too. protoss can't be losing carriers before they're maxed with a huge bank, they're too much of a time and gas investment. if you've never played protoss, it can't really be explained to you how incredibly long carriers take to build really it's about the abducts, i suppose you can use anything for the damage (hydras if there are no colossus/storm, could use fungals and/or ITs on interceptors) but i think it makes the most sense to go corruptor because that sets you up for the standard zvp long game of swarm host/corruptor/viper/brood lords/etc. and also because having your damage in the air lets you potentially get off abducts and trade against the army if it's just sitting in his main base or something. your corruptors are way more replaceable than his carriers if there are a lot of void rays mixed in against your corruptors, which there should be, you just have to try to stay out of range with the abducts and ideally have infestors out to fungal them if they try to overcharge and chase your corruptors
Well, these things dont take long enough to build if you ask me :D
I've never been able to fight them directly even with a lot of corrupors/hydras with viper, but it might be just me scouting them too late. I'll do it your way next time I face them and I'll see how it goes. Thank you!
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On March 20 2014 17:42 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 06:07 Waise wrote:On March 20 2014 05:44 DjayEl wrote:Hi guys, What the hell do you do vs mass Carriers? From time to time I get matched vs plat guys and for some reason they either cheese me or go mass carriers, and vs these I lose every time. I've tried pretty much everything, from mass hydra infestor/spores/vipers to a big muta switch like in a normal game, but it turns out it's much harder to base trade vs these than vs standard deathball because they are much less affected by static defense and my bases just go down too fast. Here is a recent replay: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP carriers.SC2ReplayI'm quite surprised I never see these on pro matches, there must be an easy way to beat basic turtling into a-moving carriers, but so far I've always been surprised by how powerful these units were and right now I feel helpless. last time i saw carriers pvz was on root petraeus' stream and he fought it pretty easily and effectively by identifying it relatively early (at like 2-4 carriers out), going viper mass corruptor and using patient abducts, which is what i do too. protoss can't be losing carriers before they're maxed with a huge bank, they're too much of a time and gas investment. if you've never played protoss, it can't really be explained to you how incredibly long carriers take to build really it's about the abducts, i suppose you can use anything for the damage (hydras if there are no colossus/storm, could use fungals and/or ITs on interceptors) but i think it makes the most sense to go corruptor because that sets you up for the standard zvp long game of swarm host/corruptor/viper/brood lords/etc. and also because having your damage in the air lets you potentially get off abducts and trade against the army if it's just sitting in his main base or something. your corruptors are way more replaceable than his carriers if there are a lot of void rays mixed in against your corruptors, which there should be, you just have to try to stay out of range with the abducts and ideally have infestors out to fungal them if they try to overcharge and chase your corruptors Well, these things dont take long enough to build if you ask me :D I've never been able to fight them directly even with a lot of corrupors/hydras with viper, but it might be just me scouting them too late. I'll do it your way next time I face them and I'll see how it goes. Thank you!
I have had games where I was just bad and didn't scout at all. Next thing I knew he had a fleet of carriers and I was screwed. However, if you scout it to be honest it is easy to kill. Just expand instantly up to five bases, go double spire and go for a massive corrupter 1/1 timing. Ensure you attack on his side of the map, once you have attacked him there will be a chance you trade badly, if your bank should be fine to just build a whole lot more corrupters and go annihilate the rest. At the same time any spare minerals just throw into lings and run them into his base. If he is really going for PURE carriers he will have nothing left.
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Hihi!
I just thought of something!
Recently, in those massive Swarmhost games, you usually end up with a massive bank which you cannot spend because you are on max supply. You can make static defense, but that'll only get you so far. Protoss seems like it can eventually stabilize and overpower you.
Now, in the past, we've seen players make a good number (20-30) of evolution chambers and go over 200 supply.
What I thought of; Would it be viable to do this to get 15 extra corruptors, or some more infestors, etcetera out, to match the Protoss army in strenght?
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On March 20 2014 21:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
Hihi!
I just thought of something!
Recently, in those massive Swarmhost games, you usually end up with a massive bank which you cannot spend because you are on max supply. You can make static defense, but that'll only get you so far. Protoss seems like it can eventually stabilize and overpower you.
Now, in the past, we've seen players make a good number (20-30) of evolution chambers and go over 200 supply.
What I thought of; Would it be viable to do this to get 15 extra corruptors, or some more infestors, etcetera out, to match the Protoss army in strenght?
I've also wondered why that fell out of fashion when infestor BL stopped being used. It was so convenient to get to (or close to) 200/200 with infestor/corruptor, and when your greater spire popped, you built as many spores as needed and made BLs.
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On March 20 2014 21:41 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 21:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
Hihi!
I just thought of something!
Recently, in those massive Swarmhost games, you usually end up with a massive bank which you cannot spend because you are on max supply. You can make static defense, but that'll only get you so far. Protoss seems like it can eventually stabilize and overpower you.
Now, in the past, we've seen players make a good number (20-30) of evolution chambers and go over 200 supply.
What I thought of; Would it be viable to do this to get 15 extra corruptors, or some more infestors, etcetera out, to match the Protoss army in strenght?
I've also wondered why that fell out of fashion when infestor BL stopped being used. It was so convenient to get to (or close to) 200/200 with infestor/corruptor, and when your greater spire popped, you built as many spores as needed and made BLs.
I think that simply was because the innovation was not needed. Broodlord Infestor at 200/200 was more than lethal enough, which discourages innovative play.
This was discovered during the Mondragon mass roach only roach days, if I recall correctly.
However, I think that, combined with Swarm Hosts/Corruptor/Viper/Whatever it might work. 20 more supply is really valuable in that army - I always feel like the cap is just barely to low for the army I really want to have!
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How do you deal with DT into chargelot archon (into colossus) on open maps, since roach/hydra gets melted and SH are out of question because the map makes them too easy to dodge?
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United States4883 Posts
On March 21 2014 02:25 DjayEl wrote:
How do you deal with DT into chargelot archon (into colossus) on open maps, since roach/hydra gets melted and SH are out of question because the map makes them too easy to dodge?
Roach/hydra should actually beat chargelot/archon in large enough numbers, especially on big maps where forcefields can't cut up your army effectively. You probably just need better macro and/or a more optimal build order to get more drones out; also, just make sure you're getting your upgrades on time. By the time colossus are out, you should either have 2-3 vipers or emergency corruptors to deal with them.
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On March 21 2014 02:36 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 02:25 DjayEl wrote:
How do you deal with DT into chargelot archon (into colossus) on open maps, since roach/hydra gets melted and SH are out of question because the map makes them too easy to dodge? Roach/hydra should actually beat chargelot/archon in large enough numbers, especially on big maps where forcefields can't cut up your army effectively. You probably just need better macro and/or a more optimal build order to get more drones out; also, just make sure you're getting your upgrades on time. By the time colossus are out, you should either have 2-3 vipers or emergency corruptors to deal with them.
Agree, roach/hydra. If possible aim for vipers as a follow up. Because if they have 3-5 archons your corrupters are likely to get evaporated.
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Is 2base muta into double expand a viable and strong (and safe?) opener in the current metagame?
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EPT
