On March 05 2014 23:01 RaiZ wrote: I just fail to understand the ZvP. I'm lost since the stone's age. What is the proper build order to get a clear lead ? I don't care about SH or mutas, because the real problem is way before those timing pushes. Wtf am I supposed to do when I see say, a gate first ? Should I get speed and eventually a roach warren before I even get my third ? Or should I scout, and react accordingly (walling with 2/3 gates and the likes) ? When should I take my gases ? What about Lair ?
I just can't understand those timings, or maybe I just don't want to understand them because they have so many fucking powerful allin it's ridiculous.
Honestly it sounds like the mindset you're in is the biggest problem. Protoss have a lot of timings they can hit, but they are all holdable. You just need to break them down into chunks and points of divergence, like:
You scout gateway first --FFE timings are going to be gone --gatefirst timings are now possible
Scout 1gas --certain tech builds won't be possible --gateway pressure very common
Scout no nexus by 5:00 --since he's on 1gas its probably a gateway all in.
Obviously this is a really clear cut example, and you'll need to figure out more of their timings before you can do this reliably in a ladder game. My advice is read some of the protoss threads and see what builds people are talking about and learn the timings to the common ones. Then practice with a practice partner identifying the BO in a real game before going to ladder.
On March 05 2014 23:01 RaiZ wrote: I just fail to understand the ZvP. I'm lost since the stone's age. What is the proper build order to get a clear lead ? I don't care about SH or mutas, because the real problem is way before those timing pushes. Wtf am I supposed to do when I see say, a gate first ? Should I get speed and eventually a roach warren before I even get my third ? Or should I scout, and react accordingly (walling with 2/3 gates and the likes) ? When should I take my gases ? What about Lair ?
I just can't understand those timings, or maybe I just don't want to understand them because they have so many fucking powerful allin it's ridiculous.
Always go triple hatch, don't scare yourself into thinking you can't hold it. The typical timing is all three hatches down by ~4:30, gas if you scout gate expand, no gas if you scout FFE. 6:00 drones back in gas + 2nd geyser, 6:30 overlord sac/zergling poke, 6:30 roach warren. If he's going for some kind of warpgate pressure (~6:00-6:45ish), you save your first 100 gas for roaches instead of lair, defending the first wave of zealots with ling/queen. If he's doing a 2-base all-in, you're free to continue droning until ~60 drones and add on gases 3 and 4 before making units. 2-base allin pressure doesn't hit until 9:00+.
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
The problem is not scouting, in this case. If you start scouting much earlier you'll be "behind" economically for even a standard 15p. Like the person you've quoted says, hatch first is a metagame call, and if you want to play safe and not die to a proxy 2gate you need to pool first.
On March 06 2014 04:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When defending an immortal/sentry all-in, when should I stick to just roach/ling, and when should I try mixing hydras in as well?
If/when adding hydras, what are optimal timings for the 3rd/4th gas (5th and 6th too, if they are even necessary) and the hydra den?
Personally my general strategy vs allins (and when im allining/pressuring myself) I get 2 gasses at 6, and 2 gasses at 7:15, and you get 55 drones. Get ling speed > Lair > hydra den > hydra range and just hold with that is mostly fine. I've really disliked roaches lately in the matchup except for vs gate timings.
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
The problem is not scouting, in this case. If you start scouting much earlier you'll be "behind" economically for even a standard 15p. Like the person you've quoted says, hatch first is a metagame call, and if you want to play safe and not die to a proxy 2gate you need to pool first.
Also I've been doing 15h for a VERY long time now because 15p can just be too annoying to do sometimes. I've seen people hold it easily though. Is there just a gigantic skillgap between those players? I'm almost sure there was a way someone figured out to hold proxy 2 gates with relative success.
On March 06 2014 04:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When defending an immortal/sentry all-in, when should I stick to just roach/ling, and when should I try mixing hydras in as well?
If/when adding hydras, what are optimal timings for the 3rd/4th gas (5th and 6th too, if they are even necessary) and the hydra den?
Personally my general strategy vs allins (and when im allining/pressuring myself) I get 2 gasses at 6, and 2 gasses at 7:15, and you get 55 drones. Get ling speed > Lair > hydra den > hydra range and just hold with that is mostly fine. I've really disliked roaches lately in the matchup except for vs gate timings.
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
The problem is not scouting, in this case. If you start scouting much earlier you'll be "behind" economically for even a standard 15p. Like the person you've quoted says, hatch first is a metagame call, and if you want to play safe and not die to a proxy 2gate you need to pool first.
Also I've been doing 15h for a VERY long time now because 15p can just be too annoying to do sometimes. I've seen people hold it easily though. Is there just a gigantic skillgap between those players? I'm almost sure there was a way someone figured out to hold proxy 2 gates with relative success.
If someone holds proxy 2gate with hatch first then yes there is a skill disparity or the 2gate player Fucked Way Up. Its a hard counter. The closest thing to "holding it easily" is JD vs Mana, and Mana fucked up and JD had a lot of stuff go right for him. You can watch the vod here:
Again, i'm stressing that 2gate is a hard counter. 15h is still a fine build but you have to be aware that proxy2gate should just kill it when executed properly.
Also, you hydra vs immortal allin advice is good, and that's generally the strategy most pros use as well unless doing something like 1/1 lings or burrow roach.
On March 06 2014 04:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When defending an immortal/sentry all-in, when should I stick to just roach/ling, and when should I try mixing hydras in as well?
If/when adding hydras, what are optimal timings for the 3rd/4th gas (5th and 6th too, if they are even necessary) and the hydra den?
Personally my general strategy vs allins (and when im allining/pressuring myself) I get 2 gasses at 6, and 2 gasses at 7:15, and you get 55 drones. Get ling speed > Lair > hydra den > hydra range and just hold with that is mostly fine. I've really disliked roaches lately in the matchup except for vs gate timings.
On March 06 2014 04:38 Jowj wrote:
On March 06 2014 02:52 Thalandros wrote:
On March 06 2014 00:25 DjayEl wrote:
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
The problem is not scouting, in this case. If you start scouting much earlier you'll be "behind" economically for even a standard 15p. Like the person you've quoted says, hatch first is a metagame call, and if you want to play safe and not die to a proxy 2gate you need to pool first.
Also I've been doing 15h for a VERY long time now because 15p can just be too annoying to do sometimes. I've seen people hold it easily though. Is there just a gigantic skillgap between those players? I'm almost sure there was a way someone figured out to hold proxy 2 gates with relative success.
If someone holds proxy 2gate with hatch first then yes there is a skill disparity or the 2gate player Fucked Way Up. Its a hard counter. The closest thing to "holding it easily" is JD vs Mana, and Mana fucked up and JD had a lot of stuff go right for him. You can watch the vod here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuTMwmWWwPs
Again, i'm stressing that 2gate is a hard counter. 15h is still a fine build but you have to be aware that proxy2gate should just kill it when executed properly.
Also, you hydra vs immortal allin advice is good, and that's generally the strategy most pros use as well unless doing something like 1/1 lings or burrow roach.
Easy fix I found. Scout with your 12th drone to the common proxy locations. You will 90% of the time find it before your hatch goes down, then you just build a pool and it is GG.
On March 06 2014 04:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When defending an immortal/sentry all-in, when should I stick to just roach/ling, and when should I try mixing hydras in as well?
If/when adding hydras, what are optimal timings for the 3rd/4th gas (5th and 6th too, if they are even necessary) and the hydra den?
Personally my general strategy vs allins (and when im allining/pressuring myself) I get 2 gasses at 6, and 2 gasses at 7:15, and you get 55 drones. Get ling speed > Lair > hydra den > hydra range and just hold with that is mostly fine. I've really disliked roaches lately in the matchup except for vs gate timings.
On March 06 2014 04:38 Jowj wrote:
On March 06 2014 02:52 Thalandros wrote:
On March 06 2014 00:25 DjayEl wrote:
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
The problem is not scouting, in this case. If you start scouting much earlier you'll be "behind" economically for even a standard 15p. Like the person you've quoted says, hatch first is a metagame call, and if you want to play safe and not die to a proxy 2gate you need to pool first.
Also I've been doing 15h for a VERY long time now because 15p can just be too annoying to do sometimes. I've seen people hold it easily though. Is there just a gigantic skillgap between those players? I'm almost sure there was a way someone figured out to hold proxy 2 gates with relative success.
If someone holds proxy 2gate with hatch first then yes there is a skill disparity or the 2gate player Fucked Way Up. Its a hard counter. The closest thing to "holding it easily" is JD vs Mana, and Mana fucked up and JD had a lot of stuff go right for him. You can watch the vod here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuTMwmWWwPs
Again, i'm stressing that 2gate is a hard counter. 15h is still a fine build but you have to be aware that proxy2gate should just kill it when executed properly.
Also, you hydra vs immortal allin advice is good, and that's generally the strategy most pros use as well unless doing something like 1/1 lings or burrow roach.
Easy fix I found. Scout with your 12th drone to the common proxy locations. You will 90% of the time find it before your hatch goes down, then you just build a pool and it is GG.
If you scout this early long enough to check every proxy2gate location you'll be behind a normal 15p 16h in terms of economy if its a normal game. If you're trying to play safe play pool first.
On March 06 2014 04:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When defending an immortal/sentry all-in, when should I stick to just roach/ling, and when should I try mixing hydras in as well?
If/when adding hydras, what are optimal timings for the 3rd/4th gas (5th and 6th too, if they are even necessary) and the hydra den?
Personally my general strategy vs allins (and when im allining/pressuring myself) I get 2 gasses at 6, and 2 gasses at 7:15, and you get 55 drones. Get ling speed > Lair > hydra den > hydra range and just hold with that is mostly fine. I've really disliked roaches lately in the matchup except for vs gate timings.
On March 06 2014 04:38 Jowj wrote:
On March 06 2014 02:52 Thalandros wrote:
On March 06 2014 00:25 DjayEl wrote:
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
The problem is not scouting, in this case. If you start scouting much earlier you'll be "behind" economically for even a standard 15p. Like the person you've quoted says, hatch first is a metagame call, and if you want to play safe and not die to a proxy 2gate you need to pool first.
Also I've been doing 15h for a VERY long time now because 15p can just be too annoying to do sometimes. I've seen people hold it easily though. Is there just a gigantic skillgap between those players? I'm almost sure there was a way someone figured out to hold proxy 2 gates with relative success.
I would disagree it doesn't take that long to scout the 'normal' locations. What I will often do is scout around with that drone and seeing no proxies go for three hatch before pool using that drone to make my third base. Works out very nice.
If someone holds proxy 2gate with hatch first then yes there is a skill disparity or the 2gate player Fucked Way Up. Its a hard counter. The closest thing to "holding it easily" is JD vs Mana, and Mana fucked up and JD had a lot of stuff go right for him. You can watch the vod here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuTMwmWWwPs
Again, i'm stressing that 2gate is a hard counter. 15h is still a fine build but you have to be aware that proxy2gate should just kill it when executed properly.
Also, you hydra vs immortal allin advice is good, and that's generally the strategy most pros use as well unless doing something like 1/1 lings or burrow roach.
Easy fix I found. Scout with your 12th drone to the common proxy locations. You will 90% of the time find it before your hatch goes down, then you just build a pool and it is GG.
If you scout this early long enough to check every proxy2gate location you'll be behind a normal 15p 16h in terms of economy if its a normal game. If you're trying to play safe play pool first.
I will use my drone to scout the 2-4 normal locations and then use it to make a third (3h before pool). It syncs together really nicely.
By the way guys. Who saw the build MarineKing did on Habitation station? Lift to the gold and go 2rax. I know someone asked about how to deal with it. I JUST faced that on KR ladder verses a masters player. Here is a replay with my response.
Can someone explain to me why people take the risk of going hatch first in ZvP?
Yes the pros do it but even them they get punished hard for it sometimes (see JD).
So why even bother at lower than GM? What advantage does hatch first give you?
I think it is better to play safe with pool first then going hatch first but having to send a drone to patrol etc... in the end I can`t see the benefit if you have to sacrifice a drone to look for cannons/proxies etc...
On March 06 2014 23:41 b0ub0u wrote: Can someone explain to me why people take the risk of going hatch first in ZvP?
Yes the pros do it but even them they get punished hard for it sometimes (see JD).
So why even bother at lower than GM? What advantage does hatch first give you?
I think it is better to play safe with pool first then going hatch first but having to send a drone to patrol etc... in the end I can`t see the benefit if you have to sacrifice a drone to look for cannons/proxies etc...
The reason people hatch first a lot at the moment is that it is a lot more common for protoss to open gateway then it was in WoL. It is worth the risk if you can get away with it. I hatch first on the KR server (high diamond/masters lvl) 90% of the time. The only time I do not is when I see an early probe heading my way. Even then I will sometimes sneak one in (map dependant). I will always combine a 13 drone scout to the obvious proxy locations and then also go for a 3 base before pool.
Hatch first means you have nicely lined up queen injects, better gas timing if you want it and for a brief period of time better saturation because of the faster mineral line. The injects are very slightly up with hatch first. It isn't a huge margin but it is definitely up. The reason the pro's do it is that if you always do the same build as a pro your opponent will punish you for it (pool first they would play greedy).
You definitely CAN play pool first and it will not be the thing that makes you lose on the ladder. Just depends if you wanna take the risk or not.
On March 06 2014 04:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When defending an immortal/sentry all-in, when should I stick to just roach/ling, and when should I try mixing hydras in as well?
If/when adding hydras, what are optimal timings for the 3rd/4th gas (5th and 6th too, if they are even necessary) and the hydra den?
Personally my general strategy vs allins (and when im allining/pressuring myself) I get 2 gasses at 6, and 2 gasses at 7:15, and you get 55 drones. Get ling speed > Lair > hydra den > hydra range and just hold with that is mostly fine. I've really disliked roaches lately in the matchup except for vs gate timings.
On March 06 2014 04:38 Jowj wrote:
On March 06 2014 02:52 Thalandros wrote:
On March 06 2014 00:25 DjayEl wrote:
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
The problem is not scouting, in this case. If you start scouting much earlier you'll be "behind" economically for even a standard 15p. Like the person you've quoted says, hatch first is a metagame call, and if you want to play safe and not die to a proxy 2gate you need to pool first.
Also I've been doing 15h for a VERY long time now because 15p can just be too annoying to do sometimes. I've seen people hold it easily though. Is there just a gigantic skillgap between those players? I'm almost sure there was a way someone figured out to hold proxy 2 gates with relative success.
I would disagree it doesn't take that long to scout the 'normal' locations. What I will often do is scout around with that drone and seeing no proxies go for three hatch before pool using that drone to make my third base. Works out very nice.
If someone holds proxy 2gate with hatch first then yes there is a skill disparity or the 2gate player Fucked Way Up. Its a hard counter. The closest thing to "holding it easily" is JD vs Mana, and Mana fucked up and JD had a lot of stuff go right for him. You can watch the vod here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuTMwmWWwPs
Again, i'm stressing that 2gate is a hard counter. 15h is still a fine build but you have to be aware that proxy2gate should just kill it when executed properly.
Also, you hydra vs immortal allin advice is good, and that's generally the strategy most pros use as well unless doing something like 1/1 lings or burrow roach.
Easy fix I found. Scout with your 12th drone to the common proxy locations. You will 90% of the time find it before your hatch goes down, then you just build a pool and it is GG.
If you scout this early long enough to check every proxy2gate location you'll be behind a normal 15p 16h in terms of economy if its a normal game. If you're trying to play safe play pool first.
I will use my drone to scout the 2-4 normal locations and then use it to make a third (3h before pool). It syncs together really nicely.
This almost certainly puts you ahead vs standard gateway expos but you can lose to reactive cannons in this way.
EDIT:aaaaaand I just saw your next few posts where you talk about the risk inherent in hatch first. This is correct, essentially and I agree =). Hatch first is a fine build, 3hatch is a fine build. Just realize you're taking risks and you'll lose to somethings.
On March 06 2014 04:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When defending an immortal/sentry all-in, when should I stick to just roach/ling, and when should I try mixing hydras in as well?
If/when adding hydras, what are optimal timings for the 3rd/4th gas (5th and 6th too, if they are even necessary) and the hydra den?
Personally my general strategy vs allins (and when im allining/pressuring myself) I get 2 gasses at 6, and 2 gasses at 7:15, and you get 55 drones. Get ling speed > Lair > hydra den > hydra range and just hold with that is mostly fine. I've really disliked roaches lately in the matchup except for vs gate timings.
On March 06 2014 04:38 Jowj wrote:
On March 06 2014 02:52 Thalandros wrote:
On March 06 2014 00:25 DjayEl wrote:
On March 05 2014 23:22 Thalandros wrote: Alright, so I'm high diamond and I've completely lost it vs proxy 2 gate. Half the protoss players are doing it and it's actually doing my head in.
I go 15hatch but I scout every zvp. So I know what he's doing right as i place ym hatch down (allowing me to cancel/wait before building). Obviously my pool is going to be on 15 supply then with about 300 minerals in bank. Is that still winnable? If so, how? His zealots are in my base before I can spawn a spine, queen or lings so I'm really clueless at the moment.
If the Protoss plays it well, he will kill you no matter what with his proxy 2 gate if you hatch first. Hatching first is a metagame call and now Protosses are responding by proxy gates (at least on the ladder), but it's a build older loss if you open pool first.
If you scout with your drone anyways (at 10), then you should know he is doing this proxy thing at about 15 supply just before hitting 200 minerals, so you can always put your pool, then defend it easily.
I do the extractor trick into drone scout when i make my overlord, so usually I arrive as I am about to put down my hatch. Should I just scout earlier, like 5 seconds earlier?
The problem is not scouting, in this case. If you start scouting much earlier you'll be "behind" economically for even a standard 15p. Like the person you've quoted says, hatch first is a metagame call, and if you want to play safe and not die to a proxy 2gate you need to pool first.
Also I've been doing 15h for a VERY long time now because 15p can just be too annoying to do sometimes. I've seen people hold it easily though. Is there just a gigantic skillgap between those players? I'm almost sure there was a way someone figured out to hold proxy 2 gates with relative success.
I would disagree it doesn't take that long to scout the 'normal' locations. What I will often do is scout around with that drone and seeing no proxies go for three hatch before pool using that drone to make my third base. Works out very nice.
If someone holds proxy 2gate with hatch first then yes there is a skill disparity or the 2gate player Fucked Way Up. Its a hard counter. The closest thing to "holding it easily" is JD vs Mana, and Mana fucked up and JD had a lot of stuff go right for him. You can watch the vod here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuTMwmWWwPs
Again, i'm stressing that 2gate is a hard counter. 15h is still a fine build but you have to be aware that proxy2gate should just kill it when executed properly.
Also, you hydra vs immortal allin advice is good, and that's generally the strategy most pros use as well unless doing something like 1/1 lings or burrow roach.
Easy fix I found. Scout with your 12th drone to the common proxy locations. You will 90% of the time find it before your hatch goes down, then you just build a pool and it is GG.
If you scout this early long enough to check every proxy2gate location you'll be behind a normal 15p 16h in terms of economy if its a normal game. If you're trying to play safe play pool first.
I will use my drone to scout the 2-4 normal locations and then use it to make a third (3h before pool). It syncs together really nicely.
This almost certainly puts you ahead vs standard gateway expos but you can lose to reactive cannons in this way.
EDIT:aaaaaand I just saw your next few posts where you talk about the risk inherent in hatch first. This is correct, essentially and I agree =). Hatch first is a fine build, 3hatch is a fine build. Just realize you're taking risks and you'll lose to somethings.
This is the thing I love about starcraft. Risk vs reward. What can I get away with and what can't I get away with? Sometimes you get burnt lol
On March 10 2014 00:59 Marcinko wrote: How do you guys remember to inject? I usually forget during an engagement.
Basically just practice. You can try setting a timer for the inject duration during practice games to get in the habit of injecting, but that's basically it.
On March 10 2014 00:59 Marcinko wrote: How do you guys remember to inject? I usually forget during an engagement.
Basically just practice. You can try setting a timer for the inject duration during practice games to get in the habit of injecting, but that's basically it.
Seconded. If you're forgetting a lot during engagements, then you need to just make a mental note: "When I'm engaging the army, the biggest thought will be INJECT." You might throw a few fights at first, maybe even lose, but eventually you'll start to internalize it so you can comfortably do it and still engage properly at the same time.
There's a fairly decent custom in arcade called something like "creep spread/inject practice map" that you can practice purely injecting, spreading creep, and spending all of your larva (on overlords). I've been trying to practice that once every time before I play and it helps a lot.
On March 10 2014 00:59 Marcinko wrote: How do you guys remember to inject? I usually forget during an engagement.
What I did to train myself in injects is the following.
Play a game, focus all power on injecting. Winning or losing at this point is irrelevant. Judge a win or loss on how many injects you missed. If you normally finish an average game with 200 energy on every queen, make an aim that you will finish at 100. When you finish at 100 aim for 50 etc etc.
After EVERY game watch the replay and see your injects, especially watch where the gaps are, ask yourself "What was I doing when I didn't inject". If it is a reoccurring theme like during a battle then tell yourself to inject before every battle.
If you make this your main focus for every single game it will increase. Also it will remove the pressure of winning or losing, as your standard for success is injects. It is interesting to look through a replay and count any injects you missed when one of the major battles happen. Count them up 5 injects cycles x 4 lavae = 20 missed units. Then ask yourself 'if I had 20 more (muta/ling/ultra/bane/roach/hydra/etc) how would this match look. Then you will start to appreciate the difference of really nailing those injects.
Eventually habits your brain will be programmed to inject every 30 odd seconds. I use SceLight to track injects now that I am spent a good amount of time focusing on it. If I can get 75%+ average spawning ratio and under 10 seconds average between injects across the WHOLE game, I am very happy.
EPT
