I was originally planning on posting a question on this topic in the Zerg Help Me Thread, but the more I wrote, the more it occurred to me that this is an extremely broad and comprehensive topic that could constitute its own thread, seeing as there are so many different types of gateway pressure builds that can occur in so many different situations. Before I delve into the topic itself, however, I want to clarify what types of pressures I am talking about, and what types I am excluding. I should say, first and foremost, that I am NOT asking about responding to any sort of 1-base play from Protoss (i.e. 4-gates), nor am I asking about any sort of 2 base gateway all-ins off of FFEs, including anything with blink or charge.
What I AM talking about is any sort of pressure off of a 1 gate FE that hits anywhere between 7 and 9 minutes, and is designed to destroy the Zerg 3rd or force units instead of drones while the Protoss techs, builds up an economy, or prepares a follow-up all-in (although often times the warpgate pressure itself can do game-ending damage if the Zerg is not prepared). This pressure usually comes from 3-4 warpgates, and most commonly consists of zealots and Mothership Core, but can also contain a small number of stalkers or sentries. Occasionally, it can hit with +1 attack completed.
What I have been doing: As a platinum level Zerg player, the most difficult aspect of playing against a gate-expanding Protoss is correctly scouting and holding off gateway pressure without losing my third or overmaking units. I have been using a very standard build after scouting a gate-expo: -take a gas ASAP -pull drones off gas @100 and get ling speed -take 3rd & sacrifice overlord @ 6:00 -roach warren, 2nd gas, refill 1st gas @ 6:15-6:30 -Lair @ next 100 gas (unless emergency roaches needed)
I used to take a 3rd as soon as I scouted the Protoss taking a natural, but that resulted in me feeling very vulnerable and losing a lot more often to even the lightest of pressure, and I have had much better success waiting until 6:00. I also always have a few lings out checking the protoss wall, holding watch towers, and looking for proxy pylons.
Where I am having trouble: Usually, when facing a 1 gate FE, my lings have scouted 2 gateways at the Protoss wall (3 in total) by 5:00-5:30. At this point, I suspect that pressure is likely. When I sac my overlord at 6:00, though, I often have trouble deciding on the proper reaction because usually the ov will scout a stargate or robo facility in the main, and make me feel that I am safe to drone a bit more. Sometimes, when I take this more greedy approach, I will be surprised a minute or two later by 6-8 zealots and a MsC beating away at my newly finished 3rd base and lings/queens just don't cut it. If this third goes down, I almost always lose.
Other times, if I scout the same thing (3-4 gates + stargate or robo), I decide to play it safe and make a round or two of lings -- and occasionally up to 4 roaches as well -- to defend against aggression. However, sometimes the pressure doesn't come, and the 3 gateways have been pumping out sentries (hidden in the main) for a delayed immortal all-in that almost always kills me because I don't have the economy to reinforce quickly enough. One of my biggest question marks is knowing when early roaches are necessary and when they aren't. I like to start Lair with my next 100 gas after I resume mining it, and making defensive roaches before 7:00-7:30 really delays that.
I feel like I am constantly trying to walk a thin line between being too greedy and overreacting, and it is so difficult to make the right decision because the same scouting information can yield drastically different results. Obviously, if by 6:00 I scout 4-5 gateways and no tech structures, I can certain that gateway pressure is coming and plan accordingly, but the fact that Protoss almost always has some sort of tech mixed in makes it hard to tell whether he is going to invest in gateway units and go for my third, or whether the gateways are just there to act as a wall and produce sentries while the protoss invests in tech/economy. If anybody has some helpful advice for zergs regarding making proper decision making in response to warpgate pressure between 7 and 9 minutes, I (and many other zergs, I'm sure) would be very grateful.
Discussion Questions:
Here are some specific discussion questions that I have come up with based on various situations I have found myself in when facing aggressive Protoss builds. All questions are framed given the following scouting information by 6:30, all of which is very standard: - Protoss opened with 1-gate FE - 2 gateways were added in wall at natural before 6:00 - 2 gas taken in Protoss main - stargate or robo facility in main
- Is 6:15-6:30 an acceptable time to start a roach warren + second gas? Are there any situations in which an earlier roach warren is necessary? - Is it ever necessary to make defensive roaches before starting Lair? If so, when? - How should the zerg response differ when scouting a stargate in the main @ 6:00-6:30 along with the 3-4 gateways vs. when scouting a robo facility? - How should the zerg response differ if a spinning forge is scouted as well between 5:00-7:00? - When should spine crawlers be used to defend 3-5 gate pressure? - Is 6:00 too late for an overlord scout? - Are there any telltale signs (aside from lack of 2nd gas or tech structures) that gateway pressure is definitely incoming?
1. The timing on the roach warren is ok. You need need the roaches to hold constant waves of zealots. The first waves are defenable with zerglings and queens. Also the amount of gas you can mine limits the timing on the roach warren, because you won't be able to built any. You could skip speed to build them and play it really defensiv if you want to.
2. When you see him doing some early gate pressure and your not sure if you can hold that without roaches So i think you should almost always build the roaches before lair-
3. Scouting a stargate or robo doesn't tell you a lot. He can still do gate pressure and with a tech based follow up like warp prism drop or zealot phoenix. So you just have to keep scouting how he plays that out.
4. He is most likely gonna do a timing with plus one. A upgrade need like 160 seconds i think. With good chrono boost it goes donw to 80 seconds. So he can just do a delayed timing. Roaches should work pretty good in that situation because his attack is a bit later. But your overlord scout should tell you the informations you need. One tech struckture doesnt say much about the gate timing. But with two strucktures like stargate and forge its not commend to do an early attack.
5. Building spines is a good idea when you can anticipate the timing early enought or you see him building alot of pylons but you cant stop him. They need 50 seconds so you need them early.
6. 6 minutes is a good timing. But of course you can poke in sooner and scout for gas and other stuff. But you should try to safe him for the 6 minutes sacrifice.
7. You can tell that if he warps in the units. But its hard to know it before. There are a lot of indicators. If he sends out the mothership core with a probe and starts to build pylons early on. or when he is complety walling in his natural after moving out with some units. But against a good protoss its hard to tell.
Sorry for my bad english I hope i could help you a bit.
If he's building gateway expand in main WITHOUT walloff at ramp: go 14gas/14 pool speedling expand with lots of lings until like 32 supply. He will have a very hard time holding this.
If he's building gateway expand in main WITH walloff: hatch first
if he's trying to go ultra greedy gateway expand at the wall on low ground: also 14/14 expand, without a forge he will not be able to hold his wall
14/14 is very challenging micro and macro wise, however, so dunno if that's possible @platinum.
At what timing are you scouting to determine whether to go 14/14 or hatch first? I've been offracing as zerg quite a lot recently and got to high diamond, but I'm pretty much have no idea what I'm doing and rely on mechanics. I wasn't drone scouting in ZvP, so I'd like to know if I should and when. thanks!
taking a 3rd is very hard against gate fe. either you take it super early or very late. i like to take it early ~3:40. anyway, this is my zvp build order, maybe you should give it a try. its very hard to execute and you have to be very precise. + Show Spoiler +
13 pool (check for proxy gates in one corner with 13th drone then build pool) 16 hatch 2 15 2x2 lings (use for a. cannon rush defence b. pylon block c. try to snipe 1 building vs gate expand d. snipe cannon vs nexus first and harass. dont lose them vs gate expand) 17 drone (send 1 drone immediately to 3rd) 18 ol (while drone is on the way) 18 hatch 3 17 drone 18 drone 19 queen 1 * 21 drone 22 drone 23/100%natural queen * 25/100%natural ol 25 gas 1 (benchmark 4:30)
if gate expand use queen 1+2 for creep tumors instead of inject then a-move to 3rd base 26 queen 3 (in main) 32 queen 4 (natural, lately i start it at my 3rd so it will spawn in fight) 34 overlord
need to know if you can make drones here vs gate expand. check his wall off with one of the lings at ~5:20-5:30. if you see 2 or more gates make lings after 34-ol. try to check how many gate attack it will be. if its only 3 gate try to defend with 2-3 queens and 16 lings. follow up with 42 speed 42 ol 42 drones if its safe to drone
if its more than 3 gates you need to make roach warren and more units. maybe pull all queens you have and/or rebuild queens. also use first lings to take towers and scout the map. if you see a forge make more drones after 34-ol and try to assume when his attack will come. also scout his tech. throw down a roach warren and evo 6:30-7:00. go up to 3 gas.
if you see stargate make more drones and place 1 spore in each mineral line. make them 2 one minute later if he goes phoenix. if robo make a baneling nest and eventually take 1 or 2 more gases.
if forge expand/nexus first stay on 3 queens. make a 4th later for creep. for double ling upgrades use this timing. 6:30 2nd gas. 7:15 2 evos. +1+1 next 100gas lair. 2 more gas for ling hydra: stay on 1 gas. you should have enough gas for lair at 7:00. go up to 4 gas at 7:30 and build evo. gas 5 at ~8:00. go for +1 missile and hydra upgrades. try to hit timing attack when 2nd hydra upgrade is close to finish with ~16hydra + mass lings.
if you want to i can show you the execution in game. just send me msg.
i think its not so much the strategy as probably your execution . top pro levelplayers can judge things based of very small details (ie a chornoboost on a forge) but that's impossible under top masters because your opponents macro could have just slipped. you don't know if the weird gateway timing means aggression or awful macro.
i have been offracimg with something that's very forgiving in macro and strategy vs protoss. it practically counters slightly delayed aggression (not one base) and has served me well as an opening.
it involves not going for a blind third (it's not really needed as quickly vs gateway expands) and then opting for a much quicker lair. while your lair is building you can take a third and grit zergling speed as well as a third queen. As soon as your lair completes throw down a hydra den. if he attacks earlier just cancel your third and defend with ling production and all queens.
yay will see how easy tech as well as normal aggression becomes to hold. hydras rule (untill colossus )8
I think the roach warren timing is fine. I used to do the 5:30 and I always end up being behind if they recall or don't pressure. I rewatched the.."mapping out the 1 gate expo video" in the crash course series again which i learned from at start of hots and while it's a bit old i still think the later rw is better but you need to be very active with lings spotting pylons and warpins and such and not overmake units until he actually warp ins.
Anyway I think this thread could be very useful, I struggle so much against this even in mid masters so i end up playing every game very much from behind.
This is probably the best Zerg thread since Belial's guides. I'll look at some replays and let you know what I find, but there's already a plethora of really good information in here. Terence's build order is especially good.
However....
On March 03 2014 23:45 weikor wrote: i think its not so much the strategy as probably your execution . top pro levelplayers can judge things based of very small details (ie a chornoboost on a forge) but that's impossible under top masters because your opponents macro could have just slipped. you don't know if the weird gateway timing means aggression or awful macro.
i have been offracimg with something that's very forgiving in macro and strategy vs protoss. it practically counters slightly delayed aggression (not one base) and has served me well as an opening.
it involves not going for a blind third (it's not really needed as quickly vs gateway expands) and then opting for a much quicker lair. while your lair is building you can take a third and grit zergling speed as well as a third queen. As soon as your lair completes throw down a hydra den. if he attacks earlier just cancel your third and defend with ling production and all queens.
yay will see how easy tech as well as normal aggression becomes to hold. hydras rule (untill colossus )8
From a Protoss perspective, if you go two-base lair tech, I will just not attack until ~10 minutes or just take an early third. Going 2-base tech is very reliant on you doing damage, otherwise you end up way behind vs. later attacks. The 2-2-2 DESTROYS 2-base hydra so bad, and you can do it reactively too.
Some great feedback so far, and it's only been a day!
What I have been doing that works pretty well is intentionally supply blocking myself at 36, so at this point I have 3 queens, 1 set of scouting lings, and 29 drones with ling speed almost done. I then build 2 overlords and sac 1 into the Protoss main. (This is a few seconds before 6:00). While waiting for the 2 overlords to pop, I then take my 3rd with the minerals I float -- or if I only see 1 gas in the Protoss main, I delay the 3rd and build 2 spines instead. This works wonders for holding off extremely aggressive 1 gas builds like the MacSed 5-gate (which one of my practice buddies likes to use on me) without me having to make too many roaches -- if any at all!
90% of the time, though, the Protoss has 2 gas in the main and either a robo or a stargate, along with his 3-4 gateways, and I have to pretty much guess whether he is going to use those gates to put on pressure, or just make defensive sentries while teching and pumping probes.
Hmm if i saw 2 spines and a delayd third i more or less would call it even (assuming 1gas 4gate and reasonable econ behind it), so i'm not a huge fan of that approach. Saving up money/supply for a round of units or drones depending on what you scout sounds a little more effective to me.
Then again i'm not a Zerg so i might just be saying wrong shit
I am very honored and excited to have the approval and participation of blue posters in my thread.
Teotia, I know you as a very reputable Protoss player. I'm not sure whether or not you ever use aggressive gateway pressure builds against Zerg, but if you do, what do Zergs do that most reliably shut it down?
Every time i pressure i personally like to keep making probes rather than commit to the timing hardcore, so i usually don't do as much damage as other players. That said, if i force the Z to make enough units i call it a day and feel in a decent spot.
The worst case scenario for me is if they simply deny my proxy pylons from going down with their initial lings, because that means he has to make less units to be safe while my tech is still delayed.
In general it really comes down to how active the zerg is with his scouting, both of my army movement and of my proxy pylons, as well as of my main. Some zergs just go batshit insane on unit production and still have 1-2 rounds of units being made as my pressure gets shut down, which sets them farther behind than they would have been if they had started droning again a little earlier.
I really miss the days of forge expand in zvp xD. It was easy to read the protoss and predict what was coming and when. You had a clear path as to when to drone and when to make units.
Against gateway expand, it seems like you have to take risks in order to stay even with a protoss that has no intention of putting pressure, but appears that he has the capacity to do so( aka you scout 3 or 4 gates, you make spines/lings, then he just tech and take a third). Dts, oracles, or heavy gateway attack his REALLY fast from a gate expand, and sometimes its impossible to scout. Gate expand also means they get mama core earlier, allowing them to take a slightly faster third. As soon as the nexus finishes( 3rd) any window to break it is pretty much gone.
On March 05 2014 06:00 Teoita wrote: The worst case scenario for me is if they simply deny my proxy pylons from going down with their initial lings, because that means he has to make less units to be safe while my tech is still delayed.
This resonates very strongly with what one of my Protoss practice partners told me the other day, and I'm starting to think I'm not scouting thoroughly enough.
I always open up 14p 15h vs Protoss, and I drone scout with my 13th drone so I can always be 100% sure what the Protoss is doing before I have to decide when to take a gas. (I know I don't need to drone scout if I go pool first, but when I don't, I frequently get thrown off by things like forges in the main and proxy zealot rushes. Since I'm only in platinum league, I can't image drone scouting is too detrimental. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
When I scout a gateway opener, I make 1 set of lings as soon as my pool is done (~15 supply). I use these to hold watchtowers until about 5:00, when I use them to check the Protoss front for an expansion and/or wall, after which I send them back to the watchtowers. I don't make anymore lings until after I start my roach warren, 3rd hatch, and 2nd gas around 6:30 (~ 40 supply). By this time, ling speed has already finished.
Should I be making 2 sets of lings when my pool pops instead of 1, and if so where should I position/patrol them on maps with 2, 1, and 0 watchtowers?
Alternatively, is one set enough until speed is finished, and should I be doing other things with them besides holding watchtowers and checking the Protoss front?
As a protoss who does gateway pressure a lot one of the most important things to holding it is scouting the pylons.
If you stop the pylons going up you delay the pressure by at least 30 seconds depending on the rush distance of the map. this give you time to scout his commitment to the pressure and react accordingly. if you see 6 zealots walking across the map you should have time to build an appropriate amount or roaches/lings and not over commit to units.
You should have lings situated on the watchtowers, at the exits to the protoss natural patrolling (as close as you can get to the wall without the MSC coming and killing them) and at least 2 lings searching the map looking for hidden probes.
My final piece of advice would be to watch replays where you don't manage to scout a pylon, and look for common probe routes and proxy locations, and place overlords there.
On March 05 2014 06:29 Frankie Teardrop wrote: (I know I don't need to drone scout if I go pool first, but when I don't, I frequently get thrown off by things like forges in the main and proxy zealot rushes. Since I'm only in platinum league, I can't image drone scouting is too detrimental. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
there's nothing preventing you from just scouting proxy locations around your main and natural instead of cross-map if you're that nervous. if you wanted to hatch first i would understand, but 2gate is defensible unscouted if you're going 14 pool. you're even going 14 instead of 15 just to be a few seconds safer, which already tips your economy a bit, and then you're adding a 13 drone scout. it costs you more than you might think
On March 05 2014 06:29 Frankie Teardrop wrote: (I know I don't need to drone scout if I go pool first, but when I don't, I frequently get thrown off by things like forges in the main and proxy zealot rushes. Since I'm only in platinum league, I can't image drone scouting is too detrimental. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
there's nothing preventing you from just scouting proxy locations around your main and natural instead of cross-map if you're that nervous. if you wanted to hatch first i would understand, but 2gate is defensible unscouted if you're going 14 pool. you're even going 14 instead of 15 just to be a few seconds safer, which already tips your economy a bit, and then you're adding a 13 drone scout. it costs you more than you might think
Very good to know. How much of a difference does going 15p 16h make vs going 14p 15h? If not drone scouting and going 15p instead of 14 would give a significant boost to my economy, I will definitely practice it.
EPT
