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United States4883 Posts
On March 05 2014 13:16 Frankie Teardrop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 10:03 Waise wrote:On March 05 2014 06:29 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
(I know I don't need to drone scout if I go pool first, but when I don't, I frequently get thrown off by things like forges in the main and proxy zealot rushes. Since I'm only in platinum league, I can't image drone scouting is too detrimental. Correct me if I'm wrong.) there's nothing preventing you from just scouting proxy locations around your main and natural instead of cross-map if you're that nervous. if you wanted to hatch first i would understand, but 2gate is defensible unscouted if you're going 14 pool. you're even going 14 instead of 15 just to be a few seconds safer, which already tips your economy a bit, and then you're adding a 13 drone scout. it costs you more than you might think Very good to know. How much of a difference does going 15p 16h make vs going 14p 15h? If not drone scouting and going 15p instead of 14 would give a significant boost to my economy, I will definitely practice it.
The purpose of a drone scout is to know if your opponent is going gate expand vs. FFE and whether you can skip gas. If you're planning to get early ling speed every game (which is fine vs. FFE), then you don't need to worry about the drone scout.
14p16h** While 15 pool is more "economical", putting down a pool on 14 is actually more economic if they pylon block. You can go pool first every game and end just as economical as the Protoss as long as you take your 3rd at a reasonable time (before ~4:30). For ladder, I highly recommend going 14p16h -> gas -> third -> queens. That's really the safest progression and will allow you to hold most pressures.
On March 05 2014 06:29 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Should I be making 2 sets of lings when my pool pops instead of 1, and if so where should I position/patrol them on maps with 2, 1, and 0 watchtowers?
Alternatively, is one set enough until speed is finished, and should I be doing other things with them besides holding watchtowers and checking the Protoss front?
2 sets always. Take both watchtowers or spot the central paths on a map, send one to spot the likely third base, and one to spot the front of the Protoss base. It helps to take roundabout pathways to these places as well, scouting for proxies and hidden probes along the edges of the map. Alternatively, you can also keep a ling to two back to spot your third hatch in the event of a potential cannon rush.
Here are some examples.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 05 2014 18:26 weikor wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On March 04 2014 07:35 SC2John wrte:
From a Protoss perspective, if you go two-base lair tech, I will just not attack until ~10 minutes or just take an early third. Going 2-base tech is very reliant on you doing damage, otherwise you end up way behind vs. later attacks. The 2-2-2...
i never said that a quick lair is valid in high level play and you should take into consideration that you arent coaching mc on how to optimize his build a)the poster is in the plat.league its not so much about optimizing a pro strategy than finding something forgiving to the many misjudgements lower level players make. i can guarantee you that while its the correct response none of his opponents will do what you said b) ive beaten low masters players with exactly this strategy.
More than anything, I want to emphasize that going 2-base Zerg is very reliant on doing some kind of lair-based damage. To someone who is looking to improve and eventually play against diamond/masters players, I will always suggest 3-hatch play. Not only is it simplier (I defend then I run my opponent over with superior economy and tons of units), but it also makes it a lot easier to figure out how you lost; you know it had something to do with scouting and/or your response more than "Oh, I guess he just did a build order win...???"
That said, I don't think 2-base hydra is not valid. But at it's core, it's very situational and relies heavily on doing early damage. It's not what I would recommend to a player looking to improve.
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To me, the biggest tell on whether he will commit to a 6-8 zealot attack with reinforcements is
1. If there is two gases in the main (or two gases spread across main and natural) AND a tech structure down, because if there isn't a tech structure, what he will most likely do is a delayed move-out with 4-6 sentries and 6-8 zealots. If there is only 1 gas at the 6:30 mark, you can assume that he is committing fully to this.
2. he stops probing the natural at ~8, this is what some players do to hit a timing a little bit earlier and still have the economy to produce zealots from 4-5 gates. it is even more all-in and allows you to stop drone production earlier (maybe just 2 gas with ~30 drones on minerals) and roaches are the nail in the coffin for this attack. But if you have proper ovie placement at the natural you should be able to poke in and see the probe count pretty easily.
But if there is a tech structure and 2 gases at least, you can expect him to grab his other two gases soon or take a fast third base, BOTH of which you should be scouting for, and having speedlings running around scouting for pylons never hurts, because if you kill the pylons WHATEVER they are doing, they can't make any units near you and are forced to warp in at home.
Hope this helps
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Russian Federation262 Posts
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@SC2John:
For ladder, I highly recommend going 14p16h -> gas -> third -> queens. That's really the safest progression and will allow you to hold most pressures.
But what it the P is doing FFE, do you cancel gas or research speed anyways? Is'nt it unnecessary harmful to your economy?
Personally I always drone scout at 10 and go 15 P 16 H if I see FFE, and 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas if it is gate FE, do you think it's suboptimal in some way?
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United States4883 Posts
On March 05 2014 20:09 DjayEl wrote:@SC2John: Show nested quote +For ladder, I highly recommend going 14p16h -> gas -> third -> queens. That's really the safest progression and will allow you to hold most pressures. But what it the P is doing FFE, do you cancel gas or research speed anyways? Is'nt it unnecessary harmful to your economy? Personally I always drone scout at 10 and go 15 P 16 H if I see FFE, and 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas if it is gate FE, do you think it's suboptimal in some way?
I'll have to check to see if 15p is now the new meta, though I suppose that might be simply because pylon blocking is less common now. As far as getting gas vs. not getting gas, it's not optimal against FFE but having speedlings is never bad. If you want to modify it some, you can put one drone in gas instead of 3 so you don't lose too many early minerals (and you don't need speed until ~8:00 anyway vs. FFE). On 4-player maps where you don't immediately scout the Protoss player, going early speed is safe and more economical than scouting all over the map with a drone.
For me, it's easier to make ONE build for ladder and adjust as necessary than to try to come up with two completely different branches for one matchup.
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I just want to say that John is giving really solid advice (I really like your lings scouting patterns with the 4 lings, smart)
On March 06 2014 01:35 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 20:09 DjayEl wrote:@SC2John: For ladder, I highly recommend going 14p16h -> gas -> third -> queens. That's really the safest progression and will allow you to hold most pressures. But what it the P is doing FFE, do you cancel gas or research speed anyways? Is'nt it unnecessary harmful to your economy? Personally I always drone scout at 10 and go 15 P 16 H if I see FFE, and 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas if it is gate FE, do you think it's suboptimal in some way? I'll have to check to see if 15p is now the new meta, though I suppose that might be simply because pylon blocking is less common now. As far as getting gas vs. not getting gas, it's not optimal against FFE but having speedlings is never bad. If you want to modify it some, you can put one drone in gas instead of 3 so you don't lose too many early minerals (and you don't need speed until ~8:00 anyway vs. FFE). On 4-player maps where you don't immediately scout the Protoss player, going early speed is safe and more economical than scouting all over the map with a drone. For me, it's easier to make ONE build for ladder and adjust as necessary than to try to come up with two completely different branches for one matchup.
Working/ memorizing one build with tiny tweeks (based on what you see) will make you fasters, more relaxed, and less mistakes. 100% agree.
That being sad.
Here are some basic macro benchmarks and timings you should know.
No drone stacking, 15 pool: around 2.2 min
With drone stacking, 15 pool: before 2 min. (1.58 I have seen)
No drone stacking 15h, around 2.12
Drone stacking 15H, 2.06 - 2.10
15h with drone scout at 10 (after ov) 2.18 - 2.20
15h with drone scout and drone stacking, I have hit 2.14 bofore.
Any build you choose to do: you need to be well into 40+ supply by 6 min.
gasless 4 queen
3 queen speed,
2 queen gas tech,
pool hatch hatch,
3 hatch pool,
ect.
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Speaking of ZvP openings, here is something interesting I ran into a few days ago:
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-682-soos-pvz-hydra-based-opening/
I don't know if Day9 analysis is accurate, but for what it's worth it's sOO's Hatch Gas Pool into fast lair opening ZvP. The aim is to skip roaches to get very quick hydras to defend pressure and choose tech from there, allowing a very fast tech with great versatility while being strong vs all-ins. Interestingly enough, he does this blindly and research ling speed vs FFE as we talked about.
If he feeled safe doing this before, it should be even stronger post-patch don't you think?
Here is the approximative BO as I understood it:
-----
15 Hatch
16 Gas
16 Pool
@100 Gas, research Speed, leave 1 drone in gas
2 Queens, 1st Queen put tumor at natural after first inject and gets back to main (in order to get 2 queens near nat in case of MC poke)
@5:00 (30 pop), take 3rd
@100 Gas, tech Lair (app. 6h30) + 2nd Gas + 2 drones back in 1st gas
@7:00, Gas x2, make 10 speedlings and scout (don't sacrifice overlords if not necessary)
@Lair finish, Hydra den, research range
@Range finish, hydra speed + evo + RW + Infestation Pit + 4th base
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My question is, what do you think of this opening in terms of economy/safeness, notably to defend early warpgate pressure? The BO I posted he seems to do it vs FFE (I'm thinking about taking 3rd at 5:00), he might delay it a bit in case of gate FE as far as I know, and maybe add a RW somewhere, but I didn't see any games.
I wonder if it does work with pool first and if it could be used as a standard on ladder.
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United States248 Posts
On March 06 2014 16:29 DjayEl wrote:Speaking of ZvP openings, here is something interesting I ran into a few days ago: I don't know if Day9 analysis is accurate, but for what it's worth it's sOO's Hatch Gas Pool into fast lair opening ZvP. The aim is to skip roaches to get very quick hydras to defend pressure and choose tech from there, allowing a very fast tech with great versatility while being strong vs all-ins. Interestingly enough, he does this blindly and research ling speed vs FFE as we talked about. If he feeled safe doing this before, it should be even stronger post-patch don't you think? Here is the approximative BO as I understood it: ----- 15 Hatch 16 Gas 16 Pool @100 Gas, research Speed, leave 1 drone in gas 2 Queens, 1st Queen put tumor at natural after first inject and gets back to main (in order to get 2 queens near nat in case of MC poke) @5:00 (30 pop), take 3rd @100 Gas, tech Lair (app. 6h30) + 2nd Gas + 2 drones back in 1st gas @7:00, Gas x2, make 10 speedlings and scout (don't sacrifice overlords if not necessary) @Lair finish, Hydra den, research range @Range finish, hydra speed + evo + RW + Infestation Pit + 4th base ----- My question is, what do you think of this opening in terms of economy/safeness, notably to defend early warpgate pressure? The BO I posted he seems to do it vs FFE (I'm thinking about taking 3rd at 5:00), he might delay it a bit in case of gate FE as far as I know, and maybe add a RW somewhere, but I didn't see any games. I wonder if it does work with pool first and if it could be used as a standard on ladder.
Dealing with slight pressure you should be fine with, dealing with all ins you'll die. Slight pressure is easily thwarted with just lings + ling speed to deny pylons and pick of encroaching armies, but a dedicated attack will kill you. If you try and rush out Hydras and someone is 6 gating you off FFE, gateway units will be at your base while your den is still being built/just finished. Gateway timings can get more painful.
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On March 07 2014 00:03 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 16:29 DjayEl wrote:Speaking of ZvP openings, here is something interesting I ran into a few days ago: http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-682-soos-pvz-hydra-based-opening/ I don't know if Day9 analysis is accurate, but for what it's worth it's sOO's Hatch Gas Pool into fast lair opening ZvP. The aim is to skip roaches to get very quick hydras to defend pressure and choose tech from there, allowing a very fast tech with great versatility while being strong vs all-ins. Interestingly enough, he does this blindly and research ling speed vs FFE as we talked about. If he feeled safe doing this before, it should be even stronger post-patch don't you think? Here is the approximative BO as I understood it: ----- 15 Hatch 16 Gas 16 Pool @100 Gas, research Speed, leave 1 drone in gas 2 Queens, 1st Queen put tumor at natural after first inject and gets back to main (in order to get 2 queens near nat in case of MC poke) @5:00 (30 pop), take 3rd @100 Gas, tech Lair (app. 6h30) + 2nd Gas + 2 drones back in 1st gas @7:00, Gas x2, make 10 speedlings and scout (don't sacrifice overlords if not necessary) @Lair finish, Hydra den, research range @Range finish, hydra speed + evo + RW + Infestation Pit + 4th base ----- My question is, what do you think of this opening in terms of economy/safeness, notably to defend early warpgate pressure? The BO I posted he seems to do it vs FFE (I'm thinking about taking 3rd at 5:00), he might delay it a bit in case of gate FE as far as I know, and maybe add a RW somewhere, but I didn't see any games. I wonder if it does work with pool first and if it could be used as a standard on ladder. Dealing with slight pressure you should be fine with, dealing with all ins you'll die. Slight pressure is easily thwarted with just lings + ling speed to deny pylons and pick of encroaching armies, but a dedicated attack will kill you. If you try and rush out Hydras and someone is 6 gating you off FFE, gateway units will be at your base while your den is still being built/just finished. Gateway timings can get more painful.
That's what I thought.
I guess in this case it is possible to put down a reactive Roach Warren @6:30, put the drones back in gas and use the gas collected so far for Lair tech to hatch the first roaches.
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A lot of pro games will skip roach warren, based on scouting/metagame/knowledge of opponent/risk/whatever. Pure gateway all-ins can be very, very problematic to deal with without it though. In general, I'd skip it at your own risk. If you see two early gas at the nat, then 90 percent of the time you'll be ok to skip, but when some toss hits you with a fake gas 6 gate, It's gonna hurt.
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Let's say you are facing a 1-gate FE Protoss. You sac an overlord at 6:00-6:30 into the Protoss main and see only 1 gas, but your OV gets shot down before you can get a gateway count or check for a forge or tech structure. You know that the Protoss expanded and has two gateways at his wall. You can see that the Protoss has not taken any gas at his natural as well.
Therefore, all you can be certain of is that Protoss has:
- a natural
- only 1 gas
- at least 3 gates
- a cyber core
What are the possible types of aggression that could come of this? The only ones that I know of are:
- 4 gate pressure into tech
- MacSed 5gate
- 2 immortal/warp prism/zealot all-in with +1 attack
Are there any other builds that open up this way? I am unaware of any stargate openings off of a gate expand that only use 1 gas. (Maybe some oracle opening? I have no idea...). Should the Zerg response in all cases be to cut drones, throw down a roach warren and 2nd gas, and make only roaches/lings until the aggression is held?
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United Kingdom20327 Posts
4. He is most likely gonna do a timing with plus one. A upgrade need like 160 seconds i think. With good chrono boost it goes donw to 80 seconds.
I just wanted to point out that perfect chrono is a 1.5x speedup, not 2x
100 sec research = now 66.7 sec. 160 sec research = ~107 seconds
even high level players rarely save enough chrono boosts to do this back to back consecutively though and if they are, they rarely hit them precise to every second. A hair under two minutes is a good timing for a somewhat chrono-focused 160 sec production
For easy calculating, throw "2/3=" in windows calculator, then multiply by original timing. That gives you the fraction to like ~16 decimal places, for any fraction like this
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United States4883 Posts
On March 08 2014 05:55 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Let's say you are facing a 1-gate FE Protoss. You sac an overlord at 6:00-6:30 into the Protoss main and see only 1 gas, but your OV gets shot down before you can get a gateway count or check for a forge or tech structure. You know that the Protoss expanded and has two gateways at his wall. You can see that the Protoss has not taken any gas at his natural as well.
Therefore, all you can be certain of is that Protoss has:
- a natural
- only 1 gas
- at least 3 gates
- a cyber core
What are the possible types of aggression that could come of this? The only ones that I know of are:
- 4 gate pressure into tech
- MacSed 5gate
- 2 immortal/warp prism/zealot all-in with +1 attack
Are there any other builds that open up this way? I am unaware of any stargate openings off of a gate expand that only use 1 gas. (Maybe some oracle opening? I have no idea...). Should the Zerg response in all cases be to cut drones, throw down a roach warren and 2nd gas, and make only roaches/lings until the aggression is held?
1 gas is always a sign of heavy gate aggression. In cases where the Protoss hasn't taken any extra gases by 6:30, you need to get emergency roach warren (~6:30 instead of the more typical 7:00-7:30), skip lair, and pump nothing but roach/ling. You should pretty much be able to scout the entire Protoss base between your two overlords though as your opponent can really only have at max ONE stalker or ONE sentry.
If they DO try to open up with a stargate, it will be super late and terrible with MAYBE 1-2 void rays; the immortal allin is ~550 gas total, which is equivalent to a stargate + 2 void rays). 2-3 spores and queens will take care of that.
On March 08 2014 06:01 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +4. He is most likely gonna do a timing with plus one. A upgrade need like 160 seconds i think. With good chrono boost it goes donw to 80 seconds. I just wanted to point out that perfect chrono is a 1.5x speedup, not 2x 100 sec research = now 66.7 sec. 160 sec research = ~107 seconds even high level players rarely save enough chrono boosts to do this back to back consecutively though and if they are, they rarely hit them precise to every second. A hair under two minutes is a good timing for a somewhat chrono-focused 160 sec production For easy calculating, throw "2/3=" in windows calculator, then multiply by original timing. That gives you the fraction to like ~16 decimal places, for any fraction like this
Also, thank god someone did the math. When I first read that, I was like THERES NO FUCKING WAY +1 TAKES 80 SECONDS ZERG NEEDS TO GIVE UP RIGHT NOW.
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I have been having some difficulty in deciding what to do with my first 100 gas after I resume mining it against 1 gate FE. Obviously, my first 100 goes to ling speed, and then I pull all 3 drones off gas until after I have taken a 3rd.
At approximately 6:15-6:30 I start a roach warren and a second extractor at my natural. I then stick 3 drones back into the extractor in my main, and once the one at my natural finishes, I put 3 drones in that as well. By about 7:00, I have 100 gas and have to decide whether to start Lair or make 4 roaches. Obviously, if I have scouted a tech building and only 1-2 gateways in the Protoss base with my 6:00 overlord sac, then I will feel more than safe enough to start lair and put off roaches until a bit later. But if I scout 3-4 gateways as well as a stargate or robo, I am never sure whether or not the Protoss will decide to put on pressure, and therefore, whether or not I should delay my lair by 100 gas in order to make 4 roaches for defense. Can anybody provide me with some advice to guide me through this decision making process?
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