EPTOn March 21 2014 17:46 SC2Toastie wrote:
Is 2base muta into double expand a viable and strong (and safe?) opener in the current metagame?
Is 2base muta into double expand a viable and strong (and safe?) opener in the current metagame?
What match up?
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 157
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
What match up? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
vs T. + Show Spoiler [GSLspoiler] + Life did it twice today! | ||
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Primate
17 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On March 21 2014 22:37 Primate wrote: How do I deal with early game warp prism harass? It seems like the protoss just wants to split your army up so that you don't have a good position when the all in comes (and ofc it does come). Should I spine/spore, or have a mobile response force? It seems to me the protoss just keeps throwing zealots at me until he has some success. I'd say, split your army effectively and make sure a Queen is targetted on the Prism so there's always a timer on him. Meanwhile, make sure to still deny pylons. It's a tactic that makes it likely for you to make a mistake while Protoss essentially amoves into position and devotes all his attention to pylons and harrassment. | ||
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Frankie Teardrop
United States74 Posts
I have been making my first gas right after my first queen as soon as I identify that the Protoss didn't FFE. I use this to get ling speed, then take the drones off. I take my 2nd gas, and put drones back into the first; right after I put down my 3rd hatch and roach warren (usually around 6:15 or ~44 supply). After this, I usually just kind of wing it. I usually take my 3rd + 4th when my lair is about halfway done (8:30 or so, ~75 supply) and my 5th + 6th when my lair finishes (around 9:15-9:30). Depending on how many lings and roaches the P forces out of me with gateway pressure (and therefore, how many fewer drones I have) I am sometimes extremely starved for either minerals or gas, while having an overabundance of the other. Should I be taking my gasses based on my drone count instead of the clock, and if so; what kind of mineral saturation should I have at my 3 bases before taking gas geysers? In case it's relevent, I've been getting early ling speed and taking a 6:00 3rd vs gate expands, and playing an aggressive roach/ling/hydra midgame with 1/1/1 upgrades. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
Of course it's meant to just kill your opponent. I don't want to try something that may be invalid, that's why I'm asking. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
Anyway the problematic thing is the reapers, twice different terran players got 3 reapers , made a bunker in my natural and forced lings. Thats all fine I can usually wait for 2 or even 3 queens before I go in so I don't need to over produce lings. The thing is I take gas after hatch at 16 supply normally and my ling speed is way late to handle reapers. The bunker+3 reapers are manageable on most map but I met one skilled opponent that managed to save all reapers from my attack at the bunker and jumped up into my main where his three reapers killed my queen there and wrecked havoc. Because of the bunker I need to move my forces(mainly queens) into my natural to defend and specifically at maps where the creepless distance is far(for me this happened on daedelous) he can just dance into my main and kill tons. Theoretically he could just dance down and go into my exp when I get back to defend, until i get ling speed which will be waaay too late. How do I handle 3 reapers+bunker on maps like daedalous where its so far between the bases. Feels like its almost pointless taking the expo and that would set you so much behind its ridiculous. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 22 2014 06:01 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When is an optimal time to take your 3rd/4th and 5th/6th gas vs a 1 gate FE Protoss. I have been making my first gas right after my first queen as soon as I identify that the Protoss didn't FFE. I use this to get ling speed, then take the drones off. I take my 2nd gas, and put drones back into the first; right after I put down my 3rd hatch and roach warren (usually around 6:15 or ~44 supply). After this, I usually just kind of wing it. I usually take my 3rd + 4th when my lair is about halfway done (8:30 or so, ~75 supply) and my 5th + 6th when my lair finishes (around 9:15-9:30). Depending on how many lings and roaches the P forces out of me with gateway pressure (and therefore, how many fewer drones I have) I am sometimes extremely starved for either minerals or gas, while having an overabundance of the other. Should I be taking my gasses based on my drone count instead of the clock, and if so; what kind of mineral saturation should I have at my 3 bases before taking gas geysers? In case it's relevent, I've been getting early ling speed and taking a 6:00 3rd vs gate expands, and playing an aggressive roach/ling/hydra midgame with 1/1/1 upgrades. These all seem like fairly decent timings. The only really important thing to note is that if you're dealing with a two-base pressure, you don't generally can't afford to get the 5th and 6th gas geysers unless it's a much later allin (2-2-2, chargelot/archon allin, or any allin after phoenixes) or you cut a lot of stuff to rush out hydras. Pure roach production (along with upgrades) requires kind of a 2:1 ratio of minerals to gas while hydras require something more like a 1:1 ratio. That said, if you feel like your gas is kind of high ~10:30, it should get taken care of quickly with a swell of hydras. On March 22 2014 06:26 Alchemik wrote: I'd like to know if 8-roach/lings push is actually a valid tactic. I didn't see it very often, there's many more popular fast pushes for zerg, so can anyone tell me if - executed properly - this is a good build? Of course it's meant to just kill your opponent. I don't want to try something that may be invalid, that's why I'm asking. I believe you're talking about ZvT. If so, yes, it works fairly well against Terran players who skip banshees (although usually you skip the lings). Making 8-10 roaches allows you to pressure the Terran player and prevent his hellions from harassing your queens and drones long enough to get good saturation and creep spread going. The downside to this is obviously that your economy kicks in a little bit later and your tech is delayed. Oh wait, you're talking about the 7-roach rush on one base. In that case, no, 7RR is pretty dead. The above is on 2.5 bases. On March 22 2014 09:49 Shuffleblade wrote: I'm a platinum zerg player that usually goes 15 pool ->15/16 hatch basically everygame for safety. Today I had a streak of shitty games with bunker rushes, proxy raxes and cannons. So pissed >_> Anyway the problematic thing is the reapers, twice different terran players got 3 reapers , made a bunker in my natural and forced lings. Thats all fine I can usually wait for 2 or even 3 queens before I go in so I don't need to over produce lings. The thing is I take gas after hatch at 16 supply normally and my ling speed is way late to handle reapers. The bunker+3 reapers are manageable on most map but I met one skilled opponent that managed to save all reapers from my attack at the bunker and jumped up into my main where his three reapers killed my queen there and wrecked havoc. Because of the bunker I need to move my forces(mainly queens) into my natural to defend and specifically at maps where the creepless distance is far(for me this happened on daedelous) he can just dance into my main and kill tons. Theoretically he could just dance down and go into my exp when I get back to defend, until i get ling speed which will be waaay too late. How do I handle 3 reapers+bunker on maps like daedalous where its so far between the bases. Feels like its almost pointless taking the expo and that would set you so much behind its ridiculous. Don't go pool first in ZvT, you're just putting yourself unnecessarily behind. If you're really having particular trouble with proxy raxes and bunker rushes, just drone scout on 10 on two player maps. It's fair in ZvP to go pool first, but if you want the liberty to choose hatch first: again, just drone scout on 10 to see if it's FFE or gate expand. Against reapers, you want to defend with 4-6 lings and 2-4 queens. If a bunker does go up without you scouting it, you need to make upwards of 10-12 lings to break it. If you're having particular trouble with the problem in several games, just leave your second overlord over your natural as it's building to spot for bunkers (and pull ~5 drones to stop it from going down). Another good pointer for dealing with reapers: leave an overlord in front of your natural where reapers are likely to jump into your main base (Polar Night is perhaps the most obvious to illustrate this example). | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
as well as against maru last night | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On March 22 2014 13:49 JSK wrote: I mean this entirely in a non-inflammatory way: why is Zerg's help me thread so much shorter? As in, the FAQs? Is it because Zerg is just a more intuitive / ethereal gameplay style that requires less preparation and more game sense? What is it? (I am not currently an active player so no I am not trying to be a dick or anything… I want to understand Zerg better cause I likely will be switching to it when I come back.) We have a few very good zerg players that are quick with accurate answers (<3 you guyz!), so there are rarely long discussions about anything here. Also blades overview of zerg hots is preventing, or at least redirecting, a lot of the issues that would otherwise be posted here. The swarm will welcome you when you return.  | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On March 22 2014 13:49 JSK wrote: I mean this entirely in a non-inflammatory way: why is Zerg's help me thread so much shorter? As in, the FAQs? Is it because Zerg is just a more intuitive / ethereal gameplay style that requires less preparation and more game sense? What is it? (I am not currently an active player so no I am not trying to be a dick or anything… I want to understand Zerg better cause I likely will be switching to it when I come back.) I think because Protoss and Terran often follow very set structured build paths that last for a long time their discussion get a lot more technical and precise. They end up with larger discussion around the order of build/unit production times etc. Where as Zerg is a bit more as you say 'game sense'. The most common issues surrounding zergs is not so much the generic builds but more so how to respond (drone/unit/gas timings) to what we scout. Since this is the case I think our discussion are often reliant upon P and T coming up with newer strategies that require newer responses. All the while they do the same thing the response can be summarised very easily. I remember when the Parting immortal all-in really took off in the scene Zergies ended up with a MASSIVE amount of discussion going on, because there was a specific build that was killing 90% of zergs and we needed a better response. There is a thread on here somewhere dedicated to that discussion. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
On March 22 2014 13:13 SC2John wrote: I believe you're talking about ZvT. If so, yes, it works fairly well against Terran players who skip banshees (although usually you skip the lings). Making 8-10 roaches allows you to pressure the Terran player and prevent his hellions from harassing your queens and drones long enough to get good saturation and creep spread going. The downside to this is obviously that your economy kicks in a little bit later and your tech is delayed. Oh wait, you're talking about the 7-roach rush on one base. In that case, no, 7RR is pretty dead. The above is on 2.5 bases. I am, indeed, talking about 8-roach push reinforced with lings. On two bases, I never even tried to play on one. ;P But that is actually kind of an all-in I think, 'cause if you don't kill your opponent, or at least do a significant amount of damage, then you're screwed. | ||
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Bul2rot
Belgium2 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On March 22 2014 21:02 Bul2rot wrote: Hello ,can i use lings bane mutas vs protoss ,i like playing with a fast army ,can it work or why not ? muta/ling midgames are viable, but banelings vs protoss don't really counter anything. even zealots are better countered by roaches. there are old styles that include baneling drops onto mineral lines or on top of gateway armies, but these aren't typically used anymore because ling/infestor isn't the best opening against protoss and because of the popularity of stargate play. also, protoss units have more health than marines and zerglings, so you need to use a lot more banelings and you generally need the protoss army to be clumped and have no force fields, no recall, no colossus, no archons/storm, and to be in the middle of the map where you can surround it. it's POSSIBLE to use ling bane against protoss at a high level, yes. i've seen TLO do it on stream. but you need to have really good unit control and ideally surprise protoss with your composition because it's not super strong if you want to use a fast swarm-ish army against protoss, i recommend trying mass roach/ling. roach/ling is good for holding all-ins and it can also be used aggressively to cancel protoss's third base, and because it's low tech + low gas you can transition into anything. ling/infestor into infestor/ultra/brood lord/queen is also a viable style, but it's weak to many timings and the build is completely different (fast melee upgrades, fast hive) regardless of what style you choose, you will almost always have to transition into either swarm hosts or hive tech in a game where protoss secures 3-4+ bases | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 22 2014 13:32 ThePastor wrote: Pool first in ZvT is actually becoming more and more popular, especially on the Korean ladder. It is a great response to the all to common three reaper build which is becoming more and more popular. Life did it several times at IEM, + Show Spoiler + as well as against maru last night In terms of ladder, it much more economical to just go hatch first and drone scout (or just blind hatch first and accept proxy 11/11 and 3-reaper harass losses). Life uses it several times on maps like Yeonsu and Habitation Station where proxy barracks are very easy to hide so that he could kind of metagame his opponent. I highly discourage "metagaming" on the ladder; learning solid play is far more important than getting a handful of lucky wins because you did the right build order (and losing most of the others pretty hard). On March 22 2014 18:24 Alchemik wrote: I am, indeed, talking about 8-roach push reinforced with lings. On two bases, I never even tried to play on one. ;P But that is actually kind of an all-in I think, 'cause if you don't kill your opponent, or at least do a significant amount of damage, then you're screwed. It's kind of a coinflip based on whether your opponent commits to a lot of hellions or not. You don't NECESSARILY have to do a significant amount of damage, but you want to keep the roaches alive for as long as possible. Like all pressure builds, the goal is to either 1) do significant damage or, if you can't do that 2) delay for as long as possible while getting the necessary tech/economy back at home to deal with the counterswing. Again, if you're on top of it, your creep spread should end up being far superior than usual, buying you some extra time whenever the Terran attacks. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On March 23 2014 00:11 SC2John wrote: In terms of ladder, it much more economical to just go hatch first and drone scout (or just blind hatch first and accept proxy 11/11 and 3-reaper harass losses). Life uses it several times on maps like Yeonsu and Habitation Station where proxy barracks are very easy to hide so that he could kind of metagame his opponent. I highly discourage "metagaming" on the ladder; learning solid play is far more important than getting a handful of lucky wins because you did the right build order (and losing most of the others pretty hard). What exactly is drone scouting ? Checking for proxy rax or simply scout til you reach the T's base ? Cauz if so, you pretty much have the same eco than going pool first. If not, you're losing approximately 50 minerals with pool first. That's nothing and could save you more than you might think. Plus you may kill that cc's building while you can easily defend the reapers with a queen at each base. I don't even know if the reaper's opening is called a metagame since every T has been doing that for a while. So, I'd recommend going pool first from time to time. Not every ZvT needs to be standard. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On March 23 2014 00:11 SC2John wrote: In terms of ladder, it much more economical to just go hatch first and drone scout (or just blind hatch first and accept proxy 11/11 and 3-reaper harass losses). Life uses it several times on maps like Yeonsu and Habitation Station where proxy barracks are very easy to hide so that he could kind of metagame his opponent. I highly discourage "metagaming" on the ladder; learning solid play is far more important than getting a handful of lucky wins because you did the right build order (and losing most of the others pretty hard). Pool first is not a build to get a few lucky wins. It is a good 'safety' build for people who are not confident against reaper and any form of barracks pressure (not sure about on America ladder but in low masters 95% of players go 3 reaper or proxy). It opens up a nice timing to get pressure back on the terran and also leads into a very standard macro game. You are slightly behind economically, but it is not as much as one might think. You first inject hits faster then when you hatch first, meaning you end up being half an inject behind. Seeing as you generally have more larvae then minerals it does not impact your economy that greatly to go pool first. You are behind from an economical point of view, albeit a small amount, however it is a viable option for the person who is not confident with their early defensive micro. I am confident doing both and they both lead into a normal macro game. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On March 23 2014 02:47 RaiZ wrote: What exactly is drone scouting ? Checking for proxy rax or simply scout til you reach the T's base ? Cauz if so, you pretty much have the same eco than going pool first. If not, you're losing approximately 50 minerals with pool first. That's nothing and could save you more than you might think. Plus you may kill that cc's building while you can easily defend the reapers with a queen at each base. I don't even know if the reaper's opening is called a metagame since every T has been doing that for a while. So, I'd recommend going pool first from time to time. Not every ZvT needs to be standard. The more common drone scout at 10 would lead to all the way to your opponents base. I wouldn't recommend pool every time, it is good to do both in my opinion, good to practice against dealing with that pressure. However, if one is not confident against the terran pressure and is trying to get bigger macro ideas down it is probably more prudent to take the pool first. | ||
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Jowj
United States248 Posts
On March 23 2014 04:40 ThePastor wrote: Pool first is not a build to get a few lucky wins. It is a good 'safety' build for people who are not confident against reaper and any form of barracks pressure (not sure about on America ladder but in low masters 95% of players go 3 reaper or proxy). It opens up a nice timing to get pressure back on the terran and also leads into a very standard macro game. You are slightly behind economically, but it is not as much as one might think. You first inject hits faster then when you hatch first, meaning you end up being half an inject behind. Seeing as you generally have more larvae then minerals it does not impact your economy that greatly to go pool first. You are behind from an economical point of view, albeit a small amount, however it is a viable option for the person who is not confident with their early defensive micro. I am confident doing both and they both lead into a normal macro game. For what its worth, I agree with you that its a decent "safety" build for people who aren't confident vs reaper. However I'll also add that I don't think it should be practiced primarily at all, and then only practiced when above mid masters. Just hatch first-ing in TvZ is what 99% of the pros do (really the only pro I know who pools first with any regularity is Life), and will force you to learn to micro better vs reapers. Oh, also it changes the timings you need to know on when to stop droning, when to build certain structures, etc. Over all its more efficient to practice hatch first if you have an eye towards improving. Source: high masters Zerg who does both builds on occasion. | ||
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