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The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 198
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AFSpeeDy
126 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 03 2014 20:57 blarkh wrote: If I scout a protoss going for a 2-base Immortal all-in attack, how much saturation do I want on my bases and when do I start spamming lings/roaches? Thanks for your help! Edit: Actually it wasn't your usual Immortal all-in because it came rather late and with a ton of stalkers (in addition to 3 immortals and a ton of sentries), so I guess my question is actually 'For how much saturation do I go if my opponent doesn't get a third'. And another zvp question, since I'm actually rather lost on what to do in that matchup: If I scout my opponent rushing colossi and taking a third at about 9 minutes, how do I react? Are mutas viable? A quick attack? You want to have around 60 drones for a classic soultrain, three bases of mineral saturation plus three to four geysers (16x3 + 3x4 = 60), and produce nothing but roach/ling. The best way to defeat the soultrain, especially on these newer, wide open maps, is to send a group of ling/roach behind the army early on to pick off pylons and eventually sandwich the army from both sides. If he goes for a really delayed one, like no third or moveout by 10:00, you want to drop a safety spire (in case of 2-2-2) all-in and grab your extra geysers to tech toward hydras (~150 supply). To be honest, though, if he moves out really late like that, you should just completely trash it because you'll be way up in army supply (roach/ling) and have complete map control. Late soultrains are bad trains. Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do reactively versus a build like that. A possibility is going for roach/ling aggression to pick off the colossus or any sentries (gas units) and taking a 4th and droning behind it. Alternatively, there are plenty of lair-tech and viper-based busts that can deal with it effectively. You can also play really greedy and then go into muta/corruptor ala soO, which does fairly well against non-blink openings (and ESPECIALLY if your opponent opens without a stargate); in this case, it's not the speed of the muta switch, it's the power of it that's especially strong. My general advice to you is to either 1) play very aggressively (just roach/ling it off of 3-4 gases with ~24 roaches/40 lings every game) or 2) play super greedy and invest primarily into tech (soO/Jaedong style where you go up to 4-5 bases, get double tech at lair, double upgrades, etc.) and just hardcounter your opponent's composition. It's much easier to deviate from extremes because you can figure out much more easily where you need to go when you hit a problem. On September 03 2014 22:54 Frankie Teardrop wrote: Quick, easy question: What time do I drop safety spores in ZvP if my scouting overlord (6:00 for 1gate FE, 7:00 for FFE) is denied or doesn't spot any tech structures/mass gateways in the Protoss base? I don't want to sacrifice 3 drones and 225 minerals too early, but I obviously don't want to get crippled or killed by oracle or DT. Thanks! Key time is 7:00 (~7:30 for FFE). If you're unable to get any information on your opponent's tech or gateway count, just start blind spores and get a safety roach warren. Spores and roaches  . If you get information halfway through building, like a very obvious move out or you scout some kind of proxy tech or gateways, you can always just cancel the spores.Make sure you're checking for the natural gas timings and sentry count (gas allocation) with ling pokes too. If there's no natural gases by 7:00, it's almost 100% guaranteed to be a two-base all-in, and it's NEARLY impossible to get DTs or an oracle (unless they completely skip a sentry), which you can check with a ling poke. On September 04 2014 04:13 AFSpeeDy wrote: Hello all! I have some Questions regarding ZvZ with Gasless Roach into a third Base against 2 Base Muta. How much extra Queens do i need to secure my bases?. What do i next after Droning up my Third. Do I go Hydras or Infestors? When do i push out? Thanks! Against muta builds, you can secure a 3rd base with only your initial 4 queens. The +1/+1 timing built into that build (I assume you are using the one Lowko posted) will buy you plenty of time to saturate your 3rd base, build spores, and tech up. You can either go queen/infestor (and skip on spores to some extent) or go into hydra production. I prefer hydra production, but the general idea is to just tech up to roach/hydra + infestors and move out when you're nearing maxed. I highly recommend 4-roach hit squads and fake moveouts before max to scare your opponent a bit and keep them from teching straight up to ultras and going up to 4-5 bases. | ||
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velvex
Germany226 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On September 03 2014 20:57 blarkh wrote: If I scout a protoss going for a 2-base Immortal all-in attack, how much saturation do I want on my bases and when do I start spamming lings/roaches? Thanks for your help! Edit: Actually it wasn't your usual Immortal all-in because it came rather late and with a ton of stalkers (in addition to 3 immortals and a ton of sentries), so I guess my question is actually 'For how much saturation do I go if my opponent doesn't get a third'. And another zvp question, since I'm actually rather lost on what to do in that matchup: If I scout my opponent rushing colossi and taking a third at about 9 minutes, how do I react? Are mutas viable? A quick attack? If I see colossus and early third then it usually means you won't get attacked any time soon. What I do is a hydra-ling attack off 3 base saturation while taking a 4th and a spire behind it. You can do a hydra ling attack regardless of how you opened and what upgrade you took. Then take all gases and tech switch to mutas, this is usually the easiest way to kill a toss that goes colossus. From there on, you deny the toss 4th with your muta/corruptor ball while you take all bases and get hive | ||
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S1LVYR
Canada8 Posts
I've noticed that mutas have fallen out of favor in ZvZ and I'm wondering what caused this shift. On the ladder it almost feels as if the matchup has devolved since most of my games are just myself doing the standard muta builds from a year ago and killing roach openers. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On September 08 2014 23:53 S1LVYR wrote: I'm a zerg coming back to the game after about a year and I've got a metagame question. I've noticed that mutas have fallen out of favor in ZvZ and I'm wondering what caused this shift. On the ladder it almost feels as if the matchup has devolved since most of my games are just myself doing the standard muta builds from a year ago and killing roach openers. im assuming you already know about the spore buff and you mean after that. people just know how to punish it with roach timings now. you can usually do economic damage and force the mutas to stay back long enough for you to add spores and queens while teching to hydra or infestor, and unless you mess up your defense badly (losing tech or queens to mutas, having third denied, huge speedling runby, etc) you will end up with a pretty solid maxed out roach/hydra/infestor timing against a player behind on ugprades with deadweight mutas and often lings too. muta was never nonviable, especially at mid levels, it just became a pocket build that relies pretty heavily on a late/lazy scout from your opponent. mass muta/ling or mass muta into brood lord can work to an extent if you're really good (like scarlett good) but the simple fact is roach is really solid all around and isnt weak to muta so theres not much reason not to go roach | ||
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Asgorath
United States15 Posts
Here's an example of a game against a Diamond Protoss (I'm in Gold) where I saw pretty much everything, and still lost: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5404409 I left my second Overlord at the natural to spot, but if I had a couple of Drones on patrol that wouldn't be needed (and I might've been able to see the Probe earlier to confirm the rush was coming). Edit: I did some more searching around, I'm assuming this is still relevant? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Reacting_to_Cannon_Rushes So it seems like I should worry less about preventing it entirely, and just take appropriate action and move on (and come back later to clean it up). | ||
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velvex
Germany226 Posts
Either way, don't expect to stop all cannon rushes and don't be too hard on yourself if you lose against it. Trust me, with that attitude, your life will only be better. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10684 Posts
On September 03 2014 10:11 SC2John wrote: +1. If you're opening hatch -> gas -> pool, you want to be producing queens one at a time out of your natural hatch until you get to 6 total. You'll have 3 queens to secure your 3rd at 6:30. That, combined with a well placed spine, a few lings, and an evo wall, you should be fine. And in the words of KawwaiRice: "If the Terran is going for ANYTHING other than 6 hellions into bio, it's terrible because their production just starts too late." In other words, if you defend the suicidal hellions, you can just reactively baneling bust with 100% positive results. See: Snute. Can you elaborate a little on what you mean here? You mean pre emptively opening an early gas / speedlings and if the terran is over comitting with more than 6 hellions / anything early on, speedling baneling should be able to overwhelm him if you can actually surround / kill 6+ hellions, potentially with reapers, and ect . ( other units ) ? Sounds risky ..... | ||
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Dynamitekid
United States55 Posts
EDIT: Are the builds over at imbabuilds.com up to date? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 09 2014 12:09 Dynamitekid wrote: What is the proper opening in ZvT? Is it still the 4 queen build? I haven't played in a while. EDIT: Are the builds over at imbabuilds.com up to date? Mostly. Here is the most common opener these days: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/402752-the-hots-zerg-help-me-thread?page=190#3789 Actually, a lot of players are going 15h16p17g now, contrary to what I wrote in the post above. Either one works though! | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
Also, if it is an issue of creep spread, how do I put on aggression near to the terran base? Thanks! | ||
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Dynamitekid
United States55 Posts
On September 09 2014 13:07 SC2John wrote: Mostly. Here is the most common opener these days: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/402752-the-hots-zerg-help-me-thread?page=190#3789 Actually, a lot of players are going 15h16p17g now, contrary to what I wrote in the post above. Either one works though! Forgive my ignorance, but why do i need 6 queens? Are they for defending hellions? | ||
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
On September 10 2014 09:42 Dynamitekid wrote: Forgive my ignorance, but why do i need 6 queens? Are they for defending hellions? allows u to be safe against helions and 4 queens for fast creep spread. | ||
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phfantunes
Brazil170 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 10 2014 09:42 Dynamitekid wrote: Forgive my ignorance, but why do i need 6 queens? Are they for defending hellions? On September 10 2014 09:55 A_Scarecrow wrote: allows u to be safe against helions and 4 queens for fast creep spread. On September 10 2014 10:18 phfantunes wrote: I'm a horrible player, but I read somewhere it's due to 3 reaper openings. 6 is the generally accepted number of queens to defend against reapers, hellions, and banshees, yes. That's 2 on your main and natural hatch, and then 3-4 spreading creep and deflecting the hellions and banshees. Once my 3rd hatchery completes, I usually just tack a queen there and then just continue spreading creep with 3 queens. On September 10 2014 04:17 Yonnua wrote: What composition should I be using ZvT against bio? It seems like Ling/Bling/Muta trades really inefficiently against bio (or 4m) as long as the terran player can split reasonably well. Is it simply a matter of creep spread or should I be using other units? In the late game, Ultralisks help but die pretty quickly to kiting. Also, if it is an issue of creep spread, how do I put on aggression near to the terran base? Thanks! Muta/ling/bling is a solid composition. Your problem is probably somewhere between missing injects, spending larva, and spreading creep well. In my opinion, just focus really really hard on these aspects and all levels of your gameplay will improve drastically without having to resort to "alternative strategies" or gimmicks in order to win. As far as putting pressure onto the Terran, you should just avoid it entirely unless it's in the form of mutalisk harass or ling/bane runbys. The only time where it's fairly acceptable to attack the Terran head-on at his base is after you've cleaned up one of his armies and you didn't lose too much. Otherwise, just focus on taking more bases, spreading more creep, and doing your best to keep the Terran pinned back with minor harassment. On September 09 2014 12:03 GGzerG wrote: Can you elaborate a little on what you mean here? You mean pre emptively opening an early gas / speedlings and if the terran is over comitting with more than 6 hellions / anything early on, speedling baneling should be able to overwhelm him if you can actually surround / kill 6+ hellions, potentially with reapers, and ect . ( other units ) ? Sounds risky ..... The most common opening in ZvT is hatch -> pool -> gas for an early ling speed, then you pull units of the geyser, right? So when you take your 3rd, build a spine crawler and ~12 lings (you'll be at full 2-base saturation anyway before your third can complete). These things combined with your queens will deflect most NORMAL pressure. If, for whatever reason, your opponent loses his hellions (whether you get a particularly good surround on purpose, if he goes suicidal, whatever), it's actually very safe to reactively baneling bust, especially if your opponent made more than 6 hellions, as his barracks infrastructure is super late. This is why >6 hellions into bio is particularly dangerous. If your opponent is going balls to the walls hellions, it's most likely mech and you need a roach warren anyway; I wouldn't recommend trying to surround 12 hellions with lings. Ever. I realize I said hatch -> gas -> pool in that post earlier, and that was a bit of a slip-up. I meant to say hatch -> pool -> gas, so perhaps that's where the confusion is coming from as well. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
looked at the replay and i'm stupid | ||
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Dynamitekid
United States55 Posts
On September 10 2014 11:24 SC2John wrote: 6 is the generally accepted number of queens to defend against reapers, hellions, and banshees, yes. That's 2 on your main and natural hatch, and then 3-4 spreading creep and deflecting the hellions and banshees. Once my 3rd hatchery completes, I usually just tack a queen there and then just continue spreading creep with 3 queens. Muta/ling/bling is a solid composition. Your problem is probably somewhere between missing injects, spending larva, and spreading creep well. In my opinion, just focus really really hard on these aspects and all levels of your gameplay will improve drastically without having to resort to "alternative strategies" or gimmicks in order to win. As far as putting pressure onto the Terran, you should just avoid it entirely unless it's in the form of mutalisk harass or ling/bane runbys. The only time where it's fairly acceptable to attack the Terran head-on at his base is after you've cleaned up one of his armies and you didn't lose too much. Otherwise, just focus on taking more bases, spreading more creep, and doing your best to keep the Terran pinned back with minor harassment. The most common opening in ZvT is hatch -> pool -> gas for an early ling speed, then you pull units of the geyser, right? So when you take your 3rd, build a spine crawler and ~12 lings (you'll be at full 2-base saturation anyway before your third can complete). These things combined with your queens will deflect most NORMAL pressure. If, for whatever reason, your opponent loses his hellions (whether you get a particularly good surround on purpose, if he goes suicidal, whatever), it's actually very safe to reactively baneling bust, especially if your opponent made more than 6 hellions, as his barracks infrastructure is super late. This is why >6 hellions into bio is particularly dangerous. If your opponent is going balls to the walls hellions, it's most likely mech and you need a roach warren anyway; I wouldn't recommend trying to surround 12 hellions with lings. Ever. I realize I said hatch -> gas -> pool in that post earlier, and that was a bit of a slip-up. I meant to say hatch -> pool -> gas, so perhaps that's where the confusion is coming from as well. Can you point me to a replay on this build? I have been watching IEM and WCS and they either go 4 queen build or fast ling speed into a fast 3rd with 3 queens. | ||
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