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On September 16 2014 17:36 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 14:47 brickrd wrote:
is gasless 9pool into hatch a bad build zvz? i dont know how to do damage only committing to 6-8 lings, even against hatch first. did i make a mistake somewhere along the line thinking this was a build pros use? i keep using it because im under the impression its supposed to work against hatch first but i cant do anything with it. It's really good on 3-player maps, Catallena and Merry Go Round. If your opponent goes hatch first, you should be guaranteed to get the hatchery if you focus it down, but you need 8-10 lings in order for that to happen. I usually transition into hatch -> queen, and then go gasless to catch up in economy. On maps like Catallena or Overgrowth, this is especially good since it's fairly easy to wall off.
ah thanks. my biggest problem has been players who react immediately with a huge drone pull and fight a little bit while buying time for their own lings to pop. should i be able to fight the drones straight up if he does this? also, it shouldnt be possible to get even with drone kills against someone who drills the mineral line, correct?
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How do I deal with 4 gate push off two base into immortal-sentry push?
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On September 16 2014 17:36 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 14:47 brickrd wrote:
is gasless 9pool into hatch a bad build zvz? i dont know how to do damage only committing to 6-8 lings, even against hatch first. did i make a mistake somewhere along the line thinking this was a build pros use? i keep using it because im under the impression its supposed to work against hatch first but i cant do anything with it. It's really good on 3-player maps, Catallena and Merry Go Round. If your opponent goes hatch first, you should be guaranteed to get the hatchery if you focus it down, but you need 8-10 lings in order for that to happen. I usually transition into hatch -> queen, and then go gasless to catch up in economy. On maps like Catallena or Overgrowth, this is especially good since it's fairly easy to wall off.
I recently heard someone say on a stream that 10 pool has been fading in favour of 9 pool, or at least the variants that target the hatch. Do you (or anyone else) see that, too? My impression is also that players are a bit less keen on that 15 hatch and play more 15 pool, resulting in 9/10 pool eco being less attractive. Not sure if that extends to 10 pool speedling or baneling.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 16 2014 19:45 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 17:36 SC2John wrote:On September 16 2014 14:47 brickrd wrote:
is gasless 9pool into hatch a bad build zvz? i dont know how to do damage only committing to 6-8 lings, even against hatch first. did i make a mistake somewhere along the line thinking this was a build pros use? i keep using it because im under the impression its supposed to work against hatch first but i cant do anything with it. It's really good on 3-player maps, Catallena and Merry Go Round. If your opponent goes hatch first, you should be guaranteed to get the hatchery if you focus it down, but you need 8-10 lings in order for that to happen. I usually transition into hatch -> queen, and then go gasless to catch up in economy. On maps like Catallena or Overgrowth, this is especially good since it's fairly easy to wall off. ah thanks. my biggest problem has been players who react immediately with a huge drone pull and fight a little bit while buying time for their own lings to pop. should i be able to fight the drones straight up if he does this? also, it shouldnt be possible to get even with drone kills against someone who drills the mineral line, correct?
You never want to fight the drones on anything less than a one-on-one basis. In other words, you always have to have the surface area advantage when fighting drones. If your opponent pulls drones and you kill 5-6 of them, you're even on economy with your own natural hatch on the way as well. Against drone drilling, there's nothing you can do, but at least you're wasting a lot of mining time.
On September 16 2014 20:09 D.polylepis wrote:
How do I deal with 4 gate push off two base into immortal-sentry push?
Just defend the 4-gate with 2-gas roaches (timing is 6:30 for the 2nd gas and RW if you opened up with speed). Then you just saturate up to around 60 workers (3 base mineral saturation + 3-4 gases) and make nothing but roach/ling. As long as you don't get too far behind against the 4-gate, you should be able to defend the immortal push without too many problems.
On September 16 2014 20:11 velvex wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 17:36 SC2John wrote:On September 16 2014 14:47 brickrd wrote:
is gasless 9pool into hatch a bad build zvz? i dont know how to do damage only committing to 6-8 lings, even against hatch first. did i make a mistake somewhere along the line thinking this was a build pros use? i keep using it because im under the impression its supposed to work against hatch first but i cant do anything with it. It's really good on 3-player maps, Catallena and Merry Go Round. If your opponent goes hatch first, you should be guaranteed to get the hatchery if you focus it down, but you need 8-10 lings in order for that to happen. I usually transition into hatch -> queen, and then go gasless to catch up in economy. On maps like Catallena or Overgrowth, this is especially good since it's fairly easy to wall off. I recently heard someone say on a stream that 10 pool has been fading in favour of 9 pool, or at least the variants that target the hatch. Do you (or anyone else) see that, too? My impression is also that players are a bit less keen on that 15 hatch and play more 15 pool, resulting in 9/10 pool eco being less attractive. Not sure if that extends to 10 pool speedling or baneling.
Yeah, 10pools seem to be going out of style because 10pools couldn't cancel the hatch or trade efficiently with drones versus players who went hatch first. 9pools hit like 15 seconds sooner, so the likelihood of killing more drones or cancelling the hatch is much higher (Recently, I think it was DRG who even did an 8pool?). Either way, I think pool first builds are sneaking back into the meta because of how difficult it is to scout on 3p and 4p maps. Going pool first not only allows you more safety against early pools, but it also allows you to get faster lings for scouting and also allow you to push back scouting lings/overlords and hide what you're doing as well. Personally, I'm still a polar player...I either do hatch first or early pools because I think the payout is decent enough to gamble depending on the map.
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Okay, thanks for answering. I wasn't quite sure about the relationship between 10 pool and 15 hatch as I always 15 pool (as a diamond player I prefer it that way for the stability).
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United States248 Posts
On September 16 2014 20:09 D.polylepis wrote:
How do I deal with 4 gate push off two base into immortal-sentry push?
This is a really common question with a relatively simplistic answer that is much harder to execute. Basically, Make Roaches and hold 4gate. During his aggression send OL to his base and scout his follow up (usually pretty easy to do, Robo with a bunch of gas and chronos on robo). If you have a fast enough lair pump out hydras to defend.
First: Is it gateway expand, FFE, or nexus first?
Determining his opening is pretty important for determining timing of the actual push. Gateway expand can hit with 4gate earlier than the FFE variants, FFE has quicker upgrades, nexus first hits the immortal sentry section of the game faster although probably they won't 4gate you at all if they do this. Its certainly never happened to me on ladder.
Next, Scouting the 4gate
To do this you will be relying on scouting his front wall with zerglings, natural gas with an overlord at minimum. In addition to that its nice to have a second overlord fly into the main base and Actually See his gates, although thats harder to guarantee. The first two points are the most important.
--ling scout sees wall - if they don't have 2gate in their wall and have other tech buildings like a SG or a robo you know no 4gate is coming. If there are 2 gates in wall you know they have 3gates total, and at the very least 3gate pressure is a possibility.
--This is where the natural gasses come in. If there are no natural gasses you know the max he could have is 2, so some pressure or a quick 3rd is very possible. Thus, making units is a really good idea, to either hold his push or just straight up kill his 3rd.
Holding the 4gate
Don't wait for him to get up in your natural or 3rd where he can FF you out and snipe a hatchery. Engage him at the latest a bit out of range of hatchery/drones to keep your eco ahead. If you build early enough you could fight mid map and100% force a recall, which is really nice.
It is of PARAMOUNT importance that during this aggression you send an overlord through his base again to scout his follow up. You're looking for More Gateways, tech, anything. You should also have a ling at his 3rd base to make sure he doesn't just passively macro up from the attack.
Preparing for the immortal/sentry timing
You have two ways to prepare:
1) Mass roach ling with macro hatch on 3base, with creep spread and queens pulled to buffer army.
to make this work you need to be engaging mid map and baiting out force fields so that he doesn't have max sentry energy when he's at your base. If he gets to your base with full sentry energy you're dead and there's almost no way to win unless you have burrow and burrow movement and he somehow forgets to make an observer. Try and flank his army from AT LEAST 3 sides to make him spend more sentry energy and fuck up his forcefield placements.
2) Tech to hydras with range and spam hydra ling roach.
This allows you to be slightly more defensive, and doesn't make you auto die if they get to your base with a lot of sentry energy, however it also is usually harder to do. Your lair needs to be fast enough that you can rush out range and have it ready for his attack which can be challenging. It also means you need more gasses earlier, so you can't really afford a macro hatchery vs the earlier immortal sentry variants.
I hope this helps you. if you continue to have trouble with the build feel free to post a replay, and we'll be happy to go over it with you.
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Hi all,
How the heck do you break a Terran going Raven/Viking/Tanks?
I played an hour long game yesterday on Overgrowth that I won in the end but it was extremely frustrating. I had a lot of Swarm Hosts + Static D and Corruptors / Brood Lords / Vipers and just couldn't get anything done for like half an hour.
Should I go for some infestors and try to get money fungals? I feel like the Tanks protect the Ravens pretty well and if he gets fungaled once he can just spam Seekers at me to force me awaya.
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Hey all, I'm wondering the sight of different buildings. Liquipedia only mentions the cc vision http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Sight In the ss, the overlord can see the fac, but the terran can't see the overlord. Is that because the cliff or vision range?
![[image loading]](http://i62.tinypic.com/6hkswy.jpg)
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On September 17 2014 03:47 DinoMight wrote:
Hi all,
How the heck do you break a Terran going Raven/Viking/Tanks?
I played an hour long game yesterday on Overgrowth that I won in the end but it was extremely frustrating. I had a lot of Swarm Hosts + Static D and Corruptors / Brood Lords / Vipers and just couldn't get anything done for like half an hour.
Should I go for some infestors and try to get money fungals? I feel like the Tanks protect the Ravens pretty well and if he gets fungaled once he can just spam Seekers at me to force me awaya.
If Terran gets that big raven flock, the only thing he can't blow up easily are big numbers of spore crawlers. So if you don't win earlier, I'd try making a forest of spores as close to your opponent as possible, where a "forest" can and should easily be 30+ spores. Then use that monstrosity to protect your swarm hosts from the ravens. Terran will most likely try to kill the spores with auto-turrets and tanks, so you still need an appropriate number of swarm hosts (roughly matching the number of tanks) to stop that from happening. Then use vipers to abduct ravens into their death. Do this until Terrans runs out of money. Infestors can work, too, I guess, but I'm not sure you can always get the chain fungal off.
I focused on ravens now because those were probably the biggest threat in your game. If it's just a few ravens in a more regular mech composition, then the usual way of dealing with mech applies (mostly swarm hosts and mutas).
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On September 17 2014 03:53 TRaFFiC wrote:Hey all, I'm wondering the sight of different buildings. Liquipedia only mentions the cc vision http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Sight In the ss, the overlord can see the fac, but the terran can't see the overlord. Is that because the cliff or vision range?
That factory isn't completed and thus has basically no sight at all. The building SCV has only sight range 8 while the overlord has 11. So even if the SCV was on the bottom right of the factory, it would probably still not see the overlord.
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ah good point. but that still leaves the question. what's the vision range on a completed fac? 
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The data editor says sight range 9. Congratz on getting 1000 posts btw.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 17 2014 04:07 velvex wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 03:47 DinoMight wrote:
Hi all,
How the heck do you break a Terran going Raven/Viking/Tanks?
I played an hour long game yesterday on Overgrowth that I won in the end but it was extremely frustrating. I had a lot of Swarm Hosts + Static D and Corruptors / Brood Lords / Vipers and just couldn't get anything done for like half an hour.
Should I go for some infestors and try to get money fungals? I feel like the Tanks protect the Ravens pretty well and if he gets fungaled once he can just spam Seekers at me to force me awaya. If Terran gets that big raven flock, the only thing he can't blow up easily are big numbers of spore crawlers. So if you don't win earlier, I'd try making a forest of spores as close to your opponent as possible, where a "forest" can and should easily be 30+ spores. Then use that monstrosity to protect your swarm hosts from the ravens. Terran will most likely try to kill the spores with auto-turrets and tanks, so you still need an appropriate number of swarm hosts (roughly matching the number of tanks) to stop that from happening. Then use vipers to abduct ravens into their death. Do this until Terrans runs out of money. Infestors can work, too, I guess, but I'm not sure you can always get the chain fungal off. I focused on ravens now because those were probably the biggest threat in your game. If it's just a few ravens in a more regular mech composition, then the usual way of dealing with mech applies (mostly swarm hosts and mutas).
Kawaiirice showed me a sickkk way of optimizing muta/SH. After you get your SHs up and you're not in any danger of big 3-base mech attacks, you tech up to hive while adding on a nydus network. When hive completes, you grab 3-4 vipers and start placing nydus worms all over the map from different angles. The nydus network allows you to quickly reposition your swarm hosts and let loose a wave of locusts from a different angle, which makes it soooooo much harder to deal with. In addition, retreating the SHs into the nydus cancels seeker missile, so you don't really even need spores. The vipers allow the mutas to easily break turreted positions, and then you just nydus into the main, natural, etc. The primary advantage to this style is that it drains raven energy SUPER quickly because they have to use PDDs in 2-3 different areas to defend SHs, they can't actually seeker them, and they have to try to clean nyduses up with turrets and stuff. It's really really powerful.
In addition, as always, taking offensive bases is really strong. I actually take my 5th and 6th bases as offensive bases and start mining gas from those so that my opponent has a lot less gas on his side of the map.
Fungals are more reliable than abducts, which are almost guaranteed to lose one viper + mutas to the one raven you abduct. In general, I actually thing abduct is not great against mech unless you're opponent is just going tank/turret mode, which is pretty rare; even then, blinding cloud is probably a better spell for that situation.
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Funny you're mentioning that, I just finished a versus-mech game where I did exactly that. I've always been an advocate of the nydus/swarm host synergy, and I've always been wondering why so few people make use of it, not even Stephano. Swarm hosts may be the most bullshit Zerg unit, but, to me, they're also the most fun, with nyduses everywhere and queens creeping everything.
I still prefer abducts versus ravens, and I don't lose vipers very much as long as there aren't many vikings. And there are usually not that many vikings because I usually don't give Terran a reason to make them.
Edit: I see there's a nydus/swarm host ZvP on WCS America right now. No upgrades also. Interesting.
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^^^ interesting you say you dont give terrans a reason to make vikings because in my experience no terrans mass ravens without vikings unless its a bio into raven transition (which are terrible). every mech terran ive ever played into the late game complemented his ravens with vikings blindly. +3 vikings really damage the utility of mutas and vipers against ravens
i saw snute beat mass raven/tank on stream using muta/SH/spore/nydus/infestor/MASS QUEEN/MASS LINGS. im talking legitimately like 20-30 queens. it was the sickest most ridiculous thing ive ever seen. no idea who the terran was so maybe he just sucked but it was a legit maxed out raven mech army. snute actually lost the big engagement, lost all his infestors and 90% of his swarm hosts and they started talking in game chat about how it was over for snute, he had nothing left but queens against both ravens and tanks (and terran was turtling in his main base on overgrowth too with the entire map mined out) but he just flooded a bunch of fucking cracklings behind the queens and somehow destroyed the terran
he was using the nydus seeker cancel/fast reposition trick sc2john mentioned from kawaiirice as well.
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hey what can i do vs ghoust rush? the terran nuked me in this game, he so many cloacked ghosts and sniped my overseer, i couldnt do anything 
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On September 17 2014 08:34 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 04:07 velvex wrote:On September 17 2014 03:47 DinoMight wrote:
Hi all,
How the heck do you break a Terran going Raven/Viking/Tanks?
I played an hour long game yesterday on Overgrowth that I won in the end but it was extremely frustrating. I had a lot of Swarm Hosts + Static D and Corruptors / Brood Lords / Vipers and just couldn't get anything done for like half an hour.
Should I go for some infestors and try to get money fungals? I feel like the Tanks protect the Ravens pretty well and if he gets fungaled once he can just spam Seekers at me to force me awaya. If Terran gets that big raven flock, the only thing he can't blow up easily are big numbers of spore crawlers. So if you don't win earlier, I'd try making a forest of spores as close to your opponent as possible, where a "forest" can and should easily be 30+ spores. Then use that monstrosity to protect your swarm hosts from the ravens. Terran will most likely try to kill the spores with auto-turrets and tanks, so you still need an appropriate number of swarm hosts (roughly matching the number of tanks) to stop that from happening. Then use vipers to abduct ravens into their death. Do this until Terrans runs out of money. Infestors can work, too, I guess, but I'm not sure you can always get the chain fungal off. I focused on ravens now because those were probably the biggest threat in your game. If it's just a few ravens in a more regular mech composition, then the usual way of dealing with mech applies (mostly swarm hosts and mutas). Kawaiirice showed me a sickkk way of optimizing muta/SH. After you get your SHs up and you're not in any danger of big 3-base mech attacks, you tech up to hive while adding on a nydus network. When hive completes, you grab 3-4 vipers and start placing nydus worms all over the map from different angles. The nydus network allows you to quickly reposition your swarm hosts and let loose a wave of locusts from a different angle, which makes it soooooo much harder to deal with. In addition, retreating the SHs into the nydus cancels seeker missile, so you don't really even need spores. The vipers allow the mutas to easily break turreted positions, and then you just nydus into the main, natural, etc. The primary advantage to this style is that it drains raven energy SUPER quickly because they have to use PDDs in 2-3 different areas to defend SHs, they can't actually seeker them, and they have to try to clean nyduses up with turrets and stuff. It's really really powerful. In addition, as always, taking offensive bases is really strong. I actually take my 5th and 6th bases as offensive bases and start mining gas from those so that my opponent has a lot less gas on his side of the map. Fungals are more reliable than abducts, which are almost guaranteed to lose one viper + mutas to the one raven you abduct. In general, I actually thing abduct is not great against mech unless you're opponent is just going tank/turret mode, which is pretty rare; even then, blinding cloud is probably a better spell for that situation.
I hope he showed you the game where he got the "gg" from avilo
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On September 17 2014 09:07 brickrd wrote:
^^^ interesting you say you dont give terrans a reason to make vikings because in my experience no terrans mass ravens without vikings unless its a bio into raven transition (which are terrible). every mech terran ive ever played into the late game complemented his ravens with vikings blindly. +3 vikings really damage the utility of mutas and vipers against ravens
The difference is probably, as soon as I identify mech, I start the nydus madness right away. No matter if it's actually the correct move or not, the thing I fear the most is mech getting 5+ bases. So I rally in locusts really as soon as possible, skipping mutas if I can. I think that makes it harder to get ravens and vikings in bigger numbers since Terran loses the ground battle if he doesn't make enough tanks.
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On September 12 2014 19:17 Awin wrote:
Simple ZvP question (diamond league) :
Should I make hydras to defend an immortal all in (the also called 7 gates robo) ?
I constantly lose to this all in, no matter what I do. I am not a greedy player and I just played 2 games against some guy on ladder who does the same thing in every ZvP so I knew for sure what kind of all in arrived.
Both games I stop droning after 2 bases saturated (4 gas) and a third with a few drones (40/45 in total). I tried to mass lings and roaches in the first game, trying also to kill his pylones as long as possible but died any way. I asked him what should have I done, he told me hydras.
I met the same guy the same day and went for hydras with the same amount of drones, still lost.
I am pretty lost against this so any tips would be cool (same for 7 gates blink)
Immortal/sentry can be held with just roach/ling or roach/hydra/ling. Both are equally viable. If you KNOW it's gonna be
Immortal sentry, you can even go 2 roach warrens and research roach speed and burrow move at the same time. Burrow roaches are the easiest way to hold it, I find, but it's not practical to make 2 roach warrens unless you've already decided to go burrow-move cheese, or know the guy you're playing against is going to immo sentry before you even scout.
Your problem is that you cut drones too soon. 40-45 drones is NOT 2 full base saturation plus some drones on the 3rd. 44 drones is 2 full base with all 4 gas. This is about how many probes the Protoss will have when he moves out. You need at least 10 more drones to be able to hold this all in. 55 seems to be the number most often flouted, but sometimes I even get away with 60 if I'm lucky.
Once you identify it will be immortal sentry (your overlord should scout a finished robo facility + several gateways being built around 7:00) you should power drones until you have 2 full base saturation (44 drones) plus 8-12 drones mining minerals at your 3rd. Once you reach this drone count, your lair will be about halfway done. Start massing lings and rallying them to the Protoss natural in order to poke constantly. This will make the Protoss wary of runbys (perhaps even distracting him from his build if he has to constantly worry about force fielding his wall) as well as provide you with viable information such as sentry counts and the timing of the Protoss move out.
As soon as your lair is done, start roach speed and begin massing roaches. If you like, you can drop a hydra den anytime between now and 10:00 as well. This is totally your call. You don't need hydras to hold the all in, but they can help, and they are fun to use. If you get a hydra den, research hydra range ASAP.
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Northern Ireland281 Posts
Heya folks. Is there a post somewhere detailing the economy difference between dropping a pool first at 15, or going hatch first?
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EPT
