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On August 26 2014 06:21 Enigmasc wrote:
this might be a bit vague , but how the hell do you deal with mech? i fell that if he can get 4 bases or 5 its just gg regardless of anything i do
i hate playing vs mech so much its unreal, its gotten to the point where im considering just qutting the second i see more than 2 factories because the games gona be 40+ borefest that makes me question why i even play this game anymore
could anyone give some tips on how to kill mech quickly before swarmhosts are required, or just an allin that will end the game quickly either way so i dont have to deal with this playstyle
Regardless of whether he is playing bio or mech, if a Terran is allowed to get 4-5 bases, you're going to lose. Fortunately, it is easy for a Zerg to prevent Terran from getting that many bases, especially if the Terran goes mech.
What I do once I identify mech at around 6:30-7:00 is to make a few roaches (6-8 is plenty) to defend against the hellion harass with my extra queens while I saturate my 3 bases and tech to lair. If the Terran tries some sort of heavy hellbat and/or tank attack, you may need to make some more roaches while you tech, but I find this doesn't happen to often to me. I usually get +1 ranged attack during the lair tech as well.
Once I get to lair, I start infestation pit immediately and get the locust upgrade and start pumping out 12-16 swarm hosts ASAP. I then set my swarm hosts up outside his natural and contain him on 2 bases. If he has already started or has a 3rd up, you can usually deny it or force a lift with a roach hit squad while his army is busy defending his natural from constant locust waves.
While this contain is going on, you want to be making a spire and going up to 5 bases with 10 gas geysers. From this point on, you just want to be making mutas and air upgrades. Since swarm hosts discourage the terran from making thors and force him into making lots of tanks to defend, you should have little trouble closing the game out if you get to this point.
This style of play completely depends on your ability to contain the Terran on 2 (or at most, 3) bases. Fortunately, if you can get swarm hosts out in a reasonable time, this is extremely easy. Once he is contained, you will have complete map control and can tech switch into mutas like no tomorrow with your 5+ bases. Thanks to this SH -> muta strategy, I have a much higher win rate vs mech than I do vs bio.
Unlike swarm host usage in ZvP, you don't have to turtle behind mass spore/spine, and going swarm host -> muta vs mech usually results in wins far before 40 minutes. I find 25-30 minutes is my average game time vs mech.
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Hi I'm a Diamond zerg,
Facing a lot of mass carriers, wondering the best way to stop it before they get too many. Not as relevant or of importance, but curious if anyone else gets a lot of bm from these players, once they get up a big number, I consistently get non stop insults.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 26 2014 07:31 Frankie Teardrop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 06:21 Enigmasc wrote:
this might be a bit vague , but how the hell do you deal with mech? i fell that if he can get 4 bases or 5 its just gg regardless of anything i do
i hate playing vs mech so much its unreal, its gotten to the point where im considering just qutting the second i see more than 2 factories because the games gona be 40+ borefest that makes me question why i even play this game anymore
could anyone give some tips on how to kill mech quickly before swarmhosts are required, or just an allin that will end the game quickly either way so i dont have to deal with this playstyle Regardless of whether he is playing bio or mech, if a Terran is allowed to get 4-5 bases, you're going to lose. Fortunately, it is easy for a Zerg to prevent Terran from getting that many bases, especially if the Terran goes mech. What I do once I identify mech at around 6:30-7:00 is to make a few roaches (6-8 is plenty) to defend against the hellion harass with my extra queens while I saturate my 3 bases and tech to lair. If the Terran tries some sort of heavy hellbat and/or tank attack, you may need to make some more roaches while you tech, but I find this doesn't happen to often to me. I usually get +1 ranged attack during the lair tech as well. Once I get to lair, I start infestation pit immediately and get the locust upgrade and start pumping out 12-16 swarm hosts ASAP. I then set my swarm hosts up outside his natural and contain him on 2 bases. If he has already started or has a 3rd up, you can usually deny it or force a lift with a roach hit squad while his army is busy defending his natural from constant locust waves. While this contain is going on, you want to be making a spire and going up to 5 bases with 10 gas geysers. From this point on, you just want to be making mutas and air upgrades. Since swarm hosts discourage the terran from making thors and force him into making lots of tanks to defend, you should have little trouble closing the game out if you get to this point. This style of play completely depends on your ability to contain the Terran on 2 (or at most, 3) bases. Fortunately, if you can get swarm hosts out in a reasonable time, this is extremely easy. Once he is contained, you will have complete map control and can tech switch into mutas like no tomorrow with your 5+ bases. Thanks to this SH -> muta strategy, I have a much higher win rate vs mech than I do vs bio. Unlike swarm host usage in ZvP, you don't have to turtle behind mass spore/spine, and going swarm host -> muta vs mech usually results in wins far before 40 minutes. I find 25-30 minutes is my average game time vs mech.
It's interesting that you do this backwards from the standard. Most players go mutas first to force out the thors, then either do a big roach/muta attack or go into SH and contain on 3 bases.
So my question is: if you go such early SH, how do you deal with hellion harass, hellbat drops, thor drops (on the SH), etc.? This seems like a really big hole in your game plan, so I'm just curious if there's a way you account for these things and defend without losing too much economy.
On August 26 2014 09:27 Running wrote:
Hi I'm a Diamond zerg,
Facing a lot of mass carriers, wondering the best way to stop it before they get too many. Not as relevant or of importance, but curious if anyone else gets a lot of bm from these players, once they get up a big number, I consistently get non stop insults.
Meh, carriers are kind of like a ceremony now because your opponent really shouldn't get carriers if you play ANY kind of aggressive game play at all. However, if you do find yourself in a difficult situation versus some carriers, you can just use your standard SH/corruptor/mass spore stuff and just 1) fungal the interceptors when they go to attack spores/etc., and 2) yoink out the carriers one by one with the vipers.
My suggestion for you is to just practice some roach/hydra/viper timings or just play muta/ling. For both of them, you're going to want to play kind of greedy in the early/mid game so that you can hit stronger mid game timings and stop the game from going later or at least prevent the game from transitioning to the late game too quickly.
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Does anyone have good suggestions on which WCS season 2 replays would be best/ most educational?
Mostly looking for ling/bane/muta based ZvT as I'm a very Roach/Hydra push player and want to break away from that.
Also, any match that has a "standard" opener that for some reason has a kill switch for something the opponent did. This is more for educational reasons than specifically for my own play. This is for any of the match ups.
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United States248 Posts
On August 26 2014 17:57 HURM wrote:
Does anyone have good suggestions on which WCS season 2 replays would be best/ most educational?
Mostly looking for ling/bane/muta based ZvT as I'm a very Roach/Hydra push player and want to break away from that.
Also, any match that has a "standard" opener that for some reason has a kill switch for something the opponent did. This is more for educational reasons than specifically for my own play. This is for any of the match ups.
ZvP: Check out any soO games because despite the fact that he's an obnoxious player his mechanics are great. Perfect for benchmarks. TRUE also did a ling corrupter queen build during s2 sometime thats definitely worth learning
ZvZ: soO/Soulkey games
ZvT: Truthfully I can't remember any that were particularly memorable (there weren't that many anyway). I'd probably check out Maru v Soulkey from GSL (even though it was kind of a blow out) and Maru vs TRUE.
For matches that have typical openers but with a killswitch option seriously just watch Hyun. Thats how he plays 
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Thanks Jowj! Haha so still fall back on old Jaedong replays for normal ling/bling/muta ZvT?
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United States4883 Posts
On August 27 2014 05:03 HURM wrote:
Thanks Jowj! Haha so still fall back on old Jaedong replays for normal ling/bling/muta ZvT?
Effort vs Flash from the Kespa Cup Qualifiers:
Game 1
Game 2
Effort loses both games, but that's primarily a result of Effort not quite transitioning correctly and Flash just playing epically well. EITHER WAY, look at that constant counterattack style. LOOK AT IT. It's gorgeous. And Jaedong plays ZvT very similarly (at least, in the past I know he has).
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On August 26 2014 11:05 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 07:31 Frankie Teardrop wrote:On August 26 2014 06:21 Enigmasc wrote:
this might be a bit vague , but how the hell do you deal with mech? i fell that if he can get 4 bases or 5 its just gg regardless of anything i do
i hate playing vs mech so much its unreal, its gotten to the point where im considering just qutting the second i see more than 2 factories because the games gona be 40+ borefest that makes me question why i even play this game anymore
could anyone give some tips on how to kill mech quickly before swarmhosts are required, or just an allin that will end the game quickly either way so i dont have to deal with this playstyle Regardless of whether he is playing bio or mech, if a Terran is allowed to get 4-5 bases, you're going to lose. Fortunately, it is easy for a Zerg to prevent Terran from getting that many bases, especially if the Terran goes mech. What I do once I identify mech at around 6:30-7:00 is to make a few roaches (6-8 is plenty) to defend against the hellion harass with my extra queens while I saturate my 3 bases and tech to lair. If the Terran tries some sort of heavy hellbat and/or tank attack, you may need to make some more roaches while you tech, but I find this doesn't happen to often to me. I usually get +1 ranged attack during the lair tech as well. Once I get to lair, I start infestation pit immediately and get the locust upgrade and start pumping out 12-16 swarm hosts ASAP. I then set my swarm hosts up outside his natural and contain him on 2 bases. If he has already started or has a 3rd up, you can usually deny it or force a lift with a roach hit squad while his army is busy defending his natural from constant locust waves. While this contain is going on, you want to be making a spire and going up to 5 bases with 10 gas geysers. From this point on, you just want to be making mutas and air upgrades. Since swarm hosts discourage the terran from making thors and force him into making lots of tanks to defend, you should have little trouble closing the game out if you get to this point. This style of play completely depends on your ability to contain the Terran on 2 (or at most, 3) bases. Fortunately, if you can get swarm hosts out in a reasonable time, this is extremely easy. Once he is contained, you will have complete map control and can tech switch into mutas like no tomorrow with your 5+ bases. Thanks to this SH -> muta strategy, I have a much higher win rate vs mech than I do vs bio. Unlike swarm host usage in ZvP, you don't have to turtle behind mass spore/spine, and going swarm host -> muta vs mech usually results in wins far before 40 minutes. I find 25-30 minutes is my average game time vs mech. It's interesting that you do this backwards from the standard. Most players go mutas first to force out the thors, then either do a big roach/muta attack or go into SH and contain on 3 bases. So my question is: if you go such early SH, how do you deal with hellion harass, hellbat drops, thor drops (on the SH), etc.? This seems like a really big hole in your game plan, so I'm just curious if there's a way you account for these things and defend without losing too much economy.
Just roaches. I try to make as few roaches as necessary to hold off any early shenanigans. A couple extra queens if banshees are incoming. In diamond league I can't say as I ever see any Thor drops (didn't know that was a thing...). The most common early pressures I face are blue flame hellion run-by's,hellbat drops/pushes, and hellion/banshee harass. I usually don't have any trouble holding these with some roaches and queens. I'm sure mutas before SH is better if you have big level micro and multitaaking, but I find that when I go muta first, I can't do any damage as they already have turrets up, and I have a hard time preventing the Terran from taking a 3rd once the first Thor or 2 pops out.
For what it's worth, I've breed tried any muta/roach styles , which might be worth looking into. All I know for certain is that with swarm host into muta, my ZvMech win rate is probably higher than vs any other race/strategy. Being in diamond, that's probably not saying much, and if I start facing better players who can deal with my shit, I might have to switch it up, but for now in enjoying the easy wins. 
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Your anti-Mech sounds good, yet, you are fully reliant on getting a quick scout on it and builds like banshee/Hellion or hellbat timings just leave the Bio/Mech choice open at that timing.
As long as it is not double armory or 3factory it can still be bio or biomech.
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I too have had good results with skipping mutas versus mech, but I doubt you can reliably lock Terran in on two bases. Three, yes, but two, no. The thing is that I don't think you can always confirm mech with the first overlord scout, e.g. when Terran goes Starport after 3CC. I also think you should always have the spire, even if you're not going to make mutas. If the mech player plans to do some sort of push with a lot of hellbats, swarm hosts are relatively weak until they are in high enough numbers to dominate the hellbats. In that case, having the muta option can help a lot.
The point is, you might be able to do a very early swarm host contain on two bases, but to do that, you have to confirm mech awfully early, which makes it not practical in my eyes. On three bases, it's great though.
Relevant thread btw: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/438439-zvt-reacting-to-mech
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Hi guys, i recently restarted playing after a year break and i decided to play Zerg this time. I'm looking for help saturation wise.
On 2-3 bases, how many drones should i aim for for a macro game ?
Is it better to transfer drones from one base to another or rally new created drones to the base with the lowest drone count ?
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United States4883 Posts
On August 28 2014 02:11 Serge89 wrote:
Hi guys, i recently restarted playing after a year break and i decided to play Zerg this time. I'm looking for help saturation wise.
On 2-3 bases, how many drones should i aim for for a macro game ?
Is it better to transfer drones from one base to another or rally new created drones to the base with the lowest drone count ?
You always want to have 16/16 on minerals and 3 on each gas geyser, rallying/transferring when you reach full saturation at one base. On 3 bases, however, in ZvP and ZvT, it's perfectly permissible to go up to ~70-75 drones, so altogether about 8-10 drones over 3-base optimal saturation (3x16 (minerals) + 3x3x2 (gas)), and then, on 4 bases, spreading out your drones so that you're 16 or below at each base again and mining more optimally.
Quick tip: when you build an extractor, egg rally in 3 drones immediately, allowing the drones to get there right as the geyser finishes and it doesn't mess with your mineral saturation.
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Hi guys, here is a ZvP question.
I'm watching some GSL code S right now, and it seems that double hatch before pool is used almost universally (with a 10 drone scout) vs anything that is not a forge first build.
Is this a new meta trend? Is this kind of play really worth it compared to more traditional, late 3rds, and is there some weaknesses to this? And if someone could tell me the exact gas timings and overlord timings that are optimal while building up econ from this BO, that would be awesome
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On August 28 2014 04:34 DjayEl wrote:Hi guys, here is a ZvP question. I'm watching some GSL code S right now, and it seems that double hatch before pool is used almost universally (with a 10 drone scout) vs anything that is not a forge first build. Is this a new meta trend? Is this kind of play really worth it compared to more traditional, late 3rds, and is there some weaknesses to this? And if someone could tell me the exact gas timings and overlord timings that are optimal while building up econ from this BO, that would be awesome
you get tons of creep in the early game and tons of larvae in the mid game. the immediate eco difference isn't staggering since youre still pouring a lot of minerals into that extra hatch and cant afford drones off all larvae right away, but if protoss doesn't do a reactive allin you basically get a free 3base setup and you can make units for days or just tech if protoss goes counter greed. obviously in GSL theyre very greedy because they have gosu defense and most of them respect each other in macro games, but on ladder a lot of people will try to 4gate you. i see a lot of koreans go speed with 3hatch (15h 18h 17g 16p)
i actually rarely 3hatch because im a more aggressive/safe player but if i recall correctly the overlord timings are something like 18 (natural finishes in time to give you 2 more supply) and 32 (30?) not sure but you get the hang of it after doing the build a couple of times
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United States4883 Posts
On August 28 2014 04:34 DjayEl wrote:Hi guys, here is a ZvP question. I'm watching some GSL code S right now, and it seems that double hatch before pool is used almost universally (with a 10 drone scout) vs anything that is not a forge first build. Is this a new meta trend? Is this kind of play really worth it compared to more traditional, late 3rds, and is there some weaknesses to this? And if someone could tell me the exact gas timings and overlord timings that are optimal while building up econ from this BO, that would be awesome
9 overlord
10 drone scout
15 hatch
17 hatch
17 gas (reversible with pool)
17 pool
17 overlord
**drones as money allows, stopping around 22-24**
@100% spawning pool make 3 queens
28-30 overlord
@100 gas -> zergling speed and pull drones off gas
~34 overlord
40 overlord
etc., etc.
Gas and pool are reversible...most players get the gas first though, as it's needed to hold off early gateway timings and stuff, though against nexus first, this isn't as necessary, and, in fact, you could probably just forgo the gas altogether until 5:30-6:00.
If you pull all drones off gas, you wanna put them back on around 6:00...if you only pulled off 2, then the timing is closer to 6:30, and second gas goes down around 6:30-7:00, normal timing. It's pretty straightforward...it basically converges on your basic triple hatch build; the only difference is that you have much better creep spread and plenty of larva throughout the early parts of the game.
KawaiiRice tells me he prefers to drone scout and then either pool first or triple hatch before pool depending on the Protoss build, and I think this is a pretty decent idea. Against gate expand, triple hatch before pool is, of course, a strong opening. Against nexus first, it's POSSIBLE to still get counter-cannoned, but with the recent nexus -> gate builds and the general unwillingness of Protoss players to slow down their tech, Zergs are feeling a lot safer with this opening.
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Thanks for your answers guys, this is much clearer now.
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im struggling against terran bio mid to late game. the constant parade push style with wm and constantly denying my fourth. i play lbm but just cant get cost efficient trades. also alot of terrans i verse open siege tank first and use it for defense at 3rd as much as mutas are great with the constant drops and agression i cop i cant afford to harrass. any ideas? diamond us and eu
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United States248 Posts
On August 28 2014 16:54 A_Scarecrow wrote:
im struggling against terran bio mid to late game. the constant parade push style with wm and constantly denying my fourth. i play lbm but just cant get cost efficient trades. also alot of terrans i verse open siege tank first and use it for defense at 3rd as much as mutas are great with the constant drops and agression i cop i cant afford to harrass. any ideas? diamond us and eu
Definitely post a replay. The biggest contributing factors to losing your 4th in LBM vs parade bio is:
1: Macro leading up to the engagements
2: Preparing for your enagements (flanks? Do you have forces ready to deal with drops?)
3: This could go with number 2 but its so important it gets its own rank: Creep. Your creep needs to be great. Just absolutely fucking great.
If you can, also post the build that you are attempting to follow and we can use both of those things to help you a lot.
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tbh i dont have a build im more of a scout and react player but ill see what i can do with BO and replays
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On August 29 2014 06:05 A_Scarecrow wrote:
tbh i dont have a build im more of a scout and react player but ill see what i can do with BO and replays
Even if you are playing a reactionary style you should still stick to a build that goes in different directions at different points depending on what you scout. Most builds are pretty much worked out for up until 2 base saturation with when you take gases, upgrades etc.
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EPT
