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*EDIT* just gonna quote this sick post so it isnt lost on the last page
On August 20 2014 05:14 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 04:22 Geert wrote:Hi guys, I am a gold zerg player, and am having troubles ZvZ. I normally play a macro game and when I can get to roaches I totally crush the opponent. But many zerg shave this ling bling foreplay, with which I struggle with. There are 3 problems for me: 1 see it coming. It literally takes 20 seconds to stop droning and get a fierce zergling army. I still need to much time to look at the macro in my base. Any tips? 2 how to deal with banelings. I know that you should try to keep 2 groups of banelings together, and let 1 or 2 lings try to detonate their blings, but it is hard to pull of micro wise. How can I practice this correctly? I can't find any good guide or method on this. 3 how to harass with my lings? If I get into his base with ~8 lings, there seems not a lot I can actually do (except for getting their queens, and just send them in the mineral line...) Here is a replay of me vs some gold guy. I won, but that's because he stopped harassing  http://ggtracker.com/matches/5345847 1) Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:On August 01 2014 00:21 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I guess drone scouting is a bad idea. Is there a good way to learn more about hatch timings and overlord placement/scouting so I can actually see shit coming? I usually don't realize I'm getting all-in'd until I see a shit ton of lings running out of his base and by then it's basically too late Even the best players have trouble with that kind of play. The first requirement for such a zergling allin is to get a reasonably early speed. Someone going gasless with 4queens will obviously not speedling or speedling/baneling allin you. Your main tell is if someone is pooling zerglings and the best way to confirm that is to have your first 2-6zerglings around his base and scout into his base for the time when the first and second injects are finishing. Another way to get a chance to scout these kinds of things is if you have an overlord behind the natural mineral line (which is mapdependend) and watch his saturation. If it doesn't go up, he is about to get aggressive. Though the conclusion exclusively works like I described! A higher saturation can also just mean that he transfered a lot, in the nastiest cases even to fake you into thinking he is droning. Only a low saturation is a tell (because overmining the main is just bad, even if it fakes you out). But it's basically a battle from inject to inject. He can start pooling lings on the first, second, third or even fourth inject, all depending on the actual builds. Just have a good build and know what you're scouting with your first overlord (drone scout if you must). If you have a well-timed baneling nest and/or spine + queens, you'll be in solid shape, you just need to make sure you're being efficient in the early game. See IMBAbuilds.com for some example builds or look up Lowko's gasless ZvZ build order on Youtube. 2) Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 12:21 SC2John wrote:On July 12 2014 09:15 Mozdk wrote:
ZvZ platinum league.
In speedling + baneling fights, how should I hotkey? What do the pros do? 1 or 2 control groups. Or maybe one for speedlings and banelings not hotkey'ed? Advice I got from PiG: 1. Morph your banelings in a line (just get good at this positioning). 2. CTRL + click the lings in the selection box below OR CTRL + shift + click the baneling eggs in the selection box below. This deselects the morphing banelings and gives you only lings. 3. Rehotkey the lings. 4. CTRL + click or double-click the banelings and rehotkey them to a separate hotkey. Once you do this enough, you can minimize the amount of time spent on it down to like 1-2 seconds. The banelings need to constantly kept on a move command so that you don't accidentally trade one baneling for one ling, and you want to split off 2-3 lings from your main group (Amove/right-click on baneling, shift+ click 2-3 times in the selection box, and rehotkey your lings) to attack enemy banelings. If you have any questions, just let me know. Darglein's micro trainer in arcade has this scenario so that you can practice it against the A.I. If you want to practice it with a friend, I highly suggest grabbing a friend and drilling zergling/baneling wars with exactly the same number of ling/bane (something like 20 lings/4 banes or 30 lings/6 banes) and play "rounds" for points. As far as actually doing the fights, you need to split off 1-2 lings to target banelings (most optimal way is to attack an baneling with your lings, quickly shift+click in the bottom display twice, and then run away and rehotkey). Your banelings should be split up into 2s, yes, which can be a little difficult. No real trick here; just practice your mouse accuracy some and this will get infinitely easier. 3) You need to make sure your lings are doing intelligent things when they are harassing. Generally, they can either be: killing drones, sniping queens, or just scouting/pulling your opponent's army back. It all depends on the situation really. MOST OF THE TIME, killing drones is the biggest priority because taking a drone lead is huge in ZvZ. However, if you're in a big macro battle with lings or roaches, sniping queens is infinitely stronger because you're reducing their larva by 4-6 for the next minute. In other cases, the lings are going to die no matter what, but you may have just taken a terrible engagement and you're in danger of dying to a counterattack. In these situations, it's best to just keep your lings alive for as long as possible, running around in the main base of your opponent and posturing drone/queen harass. Take a look at your games and try to identify exactly which of these three options were best when this happens. I don't have a ton of time to look at your replay right now, but I'll try to get to it later. Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 06:48 Alchemik wrote:On August 19 2014 05:59 SC2John wrote:On August 19 2014 05:31 Alchemik wrote:
Hello!
As it happens often, I'm pretty bored with the same opening in ZvT (I already changed my ZvZ and ZvP and it's a lot more fun to play now). When yesterday I played few customs with my friend, I did few times 2-base muta on the fly (I had no build) and it felt pretty fun, definitely more than standard. So, can anyone give me an actual build for it? Tried to find it by myself and found one, TLO's version, but maybe there's others? There are a few different gas timings and ways to get there, but I think probably the best way is probably gasless 4-queen opening into either double gas at 5:00 or single gas @100% pool. Then you basically just go zergling speed first, then lair (interchangeable) and add on your extra gases and a baneling nest as lair is morphing. Once you have 2-base saturation, you can take your third with a swell of lings and queens and it's pretty safe from hellion/banshee due to the fast mutas. The biggest drawback to this style is that it gets upgrades VERY late and you also run into a bit of a larva deficit. So, as a result, you need to make sure you do a fair amount of damage with your first mutas and trade very cost effectively with your lings until you have 4 hatches and +1/+1 done. Thank you! When do you get your upgrades? Right after first mutas, right? It varies a bit, but yeah, that's a good time to get them. Should be something like 8 mutas and +1 attack, then you start the evos and drone up. Might be able to sneak an extra muta or two in there by the time evos finish, but I can't know that for sure off the top of my head, so don't quote me on that one lol.
incidentally, speaking of obnoxious speedling allins, + Show Spoiler + just did one of the dirtiest ones in the zerg arsenal to + Show Spoiler + and one i've mixed in on ladder for a while too - you basically just go gas first pool and then cut everything to get out an awkward hatchery for the sole purpose of making it look like a 15p/15h timing. obviously the build stutters because of the early hatchery but if you play at a level where people know a 3:00 hatchery is late then it's really sick. + Show Spoiler + even blocked the ramp with 3 queens, pulled drones from his natural to fight with a full surround, and still couldn't hold it.
so that's something you need to be aware of too at certain levels gl hf with speedling aggression, lol. lesson learned is it's a speedling allin until you see a roach. early reads are so so important in zvz. if you're feeling cheesy you can even try this against protoss on a 4p map or if you dont think theyll read your gas correctly.
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Yeah, that first build was pretty brutal. I've only seen it done with 15 pool, 15 gas then hatchery, not gas first. Did he only have one queen tho? How does the timings work vs someone who goes speed into bane nest? I assume he should be able to get some banelings up but pretty late so might take enough damage before that.
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I've been out of the loop for quite a while(Bought HoTS...then never played it ><), what are a couple of safe/good openers nowadays? I seem to kinda just get murdered when going with my Wings strats :s
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On August 20 2014 14:28 Seam wrote:
I've been out of the loop for quite a while(Bought HoTS...then never played it ><), what are a couple of safe/good openers nowadays? I seem to kinda just get murdered when going with my Wings strats :s
ZvP vs Forge Fast Expand the openings are basically the same as in WoL:
- some variation of 3hatch (e.g. 14p/15h/21h); the third hatch obviously comes after you confirmed FFE
- get your queens (low priority, spending larva is more important)
- double gas between 5:30 and 6:00
- in case of Stargate play get spores (maybe a tiny bit earlier than in WoL, since a single Oracle can hit pretty hard)
- get speed, get lair, get roach warren
--> midgame
ZvP vs Gateway expand is different and I think there are two main avenues to go down:
2basish into 3base play:
- For this kind of play you take a faster speed after expanding, e.g. a 15h/15g/15p opening
- you take your third a little later (after 2-3queens and zergling speed)
- and then you either go for the melee upgrades with a safety roach warren
- or you go for a fast hydralisk play, defensively or offensively, depending on your opponents midgame timings
3base play:
- some variation of 3hatch (e.g. 14p/15h/21h)
- get your queens (high priority, you need something out against early pressure)
- and then you either go for a faster gas e.g. 4:00-4:30 for zergling speed, or you go straight into a roach warren+gas around 5:00
In general, the Protoss will usually use his gateway expand to either get a faster tech (so queens are good, scouting is good) or a faster attack (so speedlings and roaches are good) then with a FFE. Especially 3-5gate attacks with an expansion are kind of hard to deal with when you first face them. A good tell is usually the amount of gases taken and the gateways at the front as well as the timings when they go down. (sorry, don't know the clockmarks for them)
The tricky part is that you have a little less time to identify which one it is. The really good Protoss builds these days are those that go Nexus first into Gateways (or the other way around) and then just go for a quick third between 7-9mins with blink or stargate play.
If he is doing something else, the situation is usually quite similar to WoL, just that you don't go Infestorbased mid/lategame, but either ling/roach/mutalisk (into basetrade or Ultras) or roach/hydra/viper (into timing or swarm host + statics). So you basically are riding on an advantage in terms of eco and you either try to end it, or you try to get some really strong army while holding on and denying as many bases for as long as possible.
For ZvT:
my favorite build against reaper openings is 15h/14p (quite safe against proxies) and getting a gas at 17 right before or after you built your overlord.
When the pool finishes go double queen and make 4-6zerglings (micro them against reapers) and replace them if they die.
Make a second queen at the natural when you can afford it, upgrade speed and pull out of gas.
The build lines up that your zergling speed should finish just around the time when the Terran doesn't really have the hellion/reaper force to deny your third, so you can try to place your third around the time your speed finishes (the earlier the better) and then you can defend with speedlings/queens.
The important part from here is to scout for hellbats and banshees. Or both. You can't defend hellbats with zerglings, and I'd recommend having like 5-6queens at that time for transfusion and antiair against banshees and medivacs and having roaches.
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Hey fellow zergies,
most of my current ZvTs go like this:
- open Hatch first
- defend Reaper Harass reasonably well (sometimes better, sometimes worse)
- get some scouting intell
- scout that the Terran is turtling on 2 bases with a lot of barracks and some reactor-factory
- i drone up 3 bases as quickly as possible
- then i go this tech-route: double evo-upgrades (melee/carapace), bane-speed, spire
- usually terrans now try to secure a 3rd, which sometimes i can deny/delay with a couple of mutas
- i build up a composition of muta,ling,bling while trying to get some damage done with the mutas, which is neglectable most of the time, because they turtle harder then leo, donatello, raphael and michaelango combined.
- then i see a friggin massive ball of bio/mine/medivac moving out some time between 13 and 16 minute mark
- i wait until the ball steps on creep
- roll in with everything
- all my shit is dead, mutalisk limbs raining from the sky
- marines are like "/dance"
- gg no re.
I tried to change my tech route after my 3rd to instant infestation pit, get pathogen glands, and get some infestors out by cutting down on the muta count (or even skipping them alltogether), but nope.
Infestors are nerfed into oblivion, fungal is more like tickle nowadays.
I tried to rush hive and get out ultras. I end up with 2-3 unupgraded ultras, which do jackshit.
Please tell me, what can i do against this bio/mine/medivac bullshit. Should i try going boringhost? I am afraid i get my ass dropped all over the place if i do.
Remember i am not soulkey nor solar, my macro is pretty shitty, but my micro is okay (in amateur-standards).
TL;DR = What is the go-to-unit comp vs. bio/mine/medivac?
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@reapsen: A replay would help.
From what I'm reading, I'd consider the following changes to your build:
- upgrades before droning up the third
- when you are fighting against a 2basish Terran, going for a spire before 11-12mins is risky imo
- micro harder when engaging: At least, if you literally just "roll in", you will lose. What you want to do is to force the Terran to burrow his mines on creep, over and over again. And then roll in a few banelings (5-10) and hold position on top of mineclumps. Or send in small group of lings and hold position on top of his mines. Or snipe single mines with muta/overseer (you need about 12mutas to oneshot a mine that is not covered by another mine).
To your question. Yes, the standard composition vs bio/mine/medivac is muta/ling/bling. Later on you can add a few ultras and infestors, (fungal mine clumps, roll them over with banelings) but mostly it is about hitting marines with banelings and preventing to die from drops with mutalisks and then starve the Terran on 4 bases (kill all other base attempts with mutalisks) while having one more than the Terran. Like, really just sit there and crush army after army until the Terran has mined out all his bases and cannot remake marines, which takes about 25-30mins.
Never attack, never lose. That's at least my paradigm against parade pushing.
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@Big J: Will provide replays as soon as i am at home (at work currently).
I have to admit, my micro in these situations is pretty shitty and i get blasted by mines left and right. I know from watching pro matches that it is possible to win the way you described, but my skill just isn't there (yet).
Therefore i was looking for a unitcomp that is less "fragile", if you know what i mean. "Sit there and crush army after army" is much easier said then done. Maybe i should go back to roach/bane all in vs. T. Have you tried going swarmhost? Is that viable?
These bio/mine pushes are easily more frustrating than sentry/immortal allins in my opinion.
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On August 20 2014 17:53 reapsen wrote:
@Big J: Will provide replays as soon as i am at home (at work currently).
I have to admit, my micro in these situations is pretty shitty and i get blasted by mines left and right. I know from watching pro matches that it is possible to win the way you described, but my skill just isn't there (yet).
Therefore i was looking for a unitcomp that is less "fragile", if you know what i mean. "Sit there and crush army after army" is much easier said then done. Maybe i should go back to roach/bane all in vs. T. Have you tried going swarmhost? Is that viable?
These bio/mine pushes are easily more frustrating than sentry/immortal allins in my opinion.
It is indeed quite hard and a small slip up (like missing a drop) can instantly snowball into a loss.
1/1 speed roach or similarily 2/2 roach/hydra pushes such as Hyun does them may be what you are looking for.
Can't tell you the exact build, but I think it comes roughly down to:
- gasless 4queen opening --> defend reapers with ling/queen
- get double gas
- get roach warren (no zergling speed)
- get double evos
- defend hellion/reaper with or without banshees or hellbat pushes with roach/queen (spores if banshee) and get a delayed third (7-8mins)
- get a lair, start 1-1 range upgrades, start roach speed as soon as lair finishes
- (you won't have a good saturation at your third)
- mass roaches and attack
1) do or die keep on massing roaches and forcing the issue
or
2) back out if you can't do damage (anymore)
- drone up your third while attacking, get 2-2, start a hydralisk den;
- do or die attack with roach/hydralisk
- if the game somehow drags on, try getting swarm hosts, vipers and 3-3; or, alternatively do or die Broodlord push
A different lategame ling/bling/muta approach then the one I described previously is the one that blade55555 has been doing and that Snute has been showcasing lately. It includes a swarm host transition so you are ultimately playing Mutalisk/Swarm Host/ling/bling. Here is a (year old) guide on it:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/420630-zvz-muta-ling-bane-swarmhost
Personally, I like the TvZ vs bio metagame a lot (I like the Mech metagame more though). But you are right, it is indeed a little frustrating when you play tower defense every game that ends with an anticlimatic "gg" out of the blue when you didnt even attack.
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On August 20 2014 18:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2014 17:53 reapsen wrote:
@Big J: Will provide replays as soon as i am at home (at work currently).
I have to admit, my micro in these situations is pretty shitty and i get blasted by mines left and right. I know from watching pro matches that it is possible to win the way you described, but my skill just isn't there (yet).
Therefore i was looking for a unitcomp that is less "fragile", if you know what i mean. "Sit there and crush army after army" is much easier said then done. Maybe i should go back to roach/bane all in vs. T. Have you tried going swarmhost? Is that viable?
These bio/mine pushes are easily more frustrating than sentry/immortal allins in my opinion. It is indeed quite hard and a small slip up (like missing a drop) can instantly snowball into a loss. 1/1 speed roach or similarily 2/2 roach/hydra pushes such as Hyun does them may be what you are looking for. Can't tell you the exact build, but I think it comes roughly down to: - gasless 4queen opening --> defend reapers with ling/queen - get double gas - get roach warren (no zergling speed) - get double evos - defend hellion/reaper with or without banshees or hellbat pushes with roach/queen (spores if banshee) and get a delayed third (7-8mins) - get a lair, start 1-1 range upgrades, start roach speed as soon as lair finishes - (you won't have a good saturation at your third) - mass roaches and attack 1) do or die keep on massing roaches and forcing the issue or 2) back out if you can't do damage (anymore) - drone up your third while attacking, get 2-2, start a hydralisk den; - do or die attack with roach/hydralisk - if the game somehow drags on, try getting swarm hosts, vipers and 3-3; or, alternatively do or die Broodlord push .
There are different variations of the roach openers. If you open gasless 4 queen you should drop your double gas at 36 or 44 supply. 44 works out better if you're trying to take a quick third. You then either go for a third at around 57 supply or straight for lair and take the third later when you have roaches out. Immediately after lair you get your RW and 2 more gases, followed by double evo. If he isn't going for some super early 2base all in you should be able to start +1/+1 and then make some roaches after that and take/defend your third. Start roach speed once you have a few roaches out. At this point you can drone up to like 55-60 drones and then make mass roaches and hit a timing. When you are moving out you can drop the hydra then, 2 more gases, drone some more and start +2/+2 if you want to hit a follow up roach hydra timing.
You can also hit the timing without droning the third, but it's not that much stronger. Some koreans have also done an earlier timing with only +1 attack and 3 gases, very much like how you would play in ZvZ. Look for some of HyuN's games as he almost always does this style, somehow he transitions to muta ling bane roach tho.
Edit: Just to clarify, HyuN does +1/+1 timing at 55-60 drones. He often opens 13 pool as well and quite often takes a late third at like 8-9 minutes, so it shows that you don't need to take a really quick third and you can safely open 2base roach and do well.
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Thanks alot guys! These are some quality replies.
I'll try to extract a smooth build order out of your content and give it a shot on the ladder.
Edit: If it works and i see some progress, i'll gladly release a small replay pack of my current (horrible) games and the (hopefully) improved ones.
Edit2: Hey Zheryn, you are the guy that just posted his GM Promotion on reddit. Congrats on that, dude! Makes your advice even more legit :D
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need help with against bio mine. after hellbat push. several masters terrans i verse deny my creep spread and just keep attacking with drops till mutas then parade push.
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I've been having problems with the late game of Protoss, the "deathball" of stalker, zealot, sentry, colossi. I have no idea what to do in this situation. Any suggestions/build orders that can help with this? It's been really frustrating to deal with
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United States4883 Posts
On August 22 2014 16:47 theanticitizen wrote:
I've been having problems with the late game of Protoss, the "deathball" of stalker, zealot, sentry, colossi. I have no idea what to do in this situation. Any suggestions/build orders that can help with this? It's been really frustrating to deal with
Simply put, you need hive tech.
Vipers, ultras, or broodlords can effectively deal with this without too many problems. My guess is that you tend to stick on lair tech too long (muta/ling or roach/hydra), so the best bet is to just focus on getting a faster hive so that you can get a more cohesive army to face off against a fully upgraded, big Protoss ground army. If you're going roach/hydra, usually the smoothest transition is vipers and then eventually replacing your army with SH/corruptor. If you're going the muta/ling route, ultra/queen is usually the smoothest transition, although BLords are still a possibility.
All in all, just play with compositions and make sure you're not getting "stuck" on lair tech units and you should see some improvement.
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United States248 Posts
On August 22 2014 16:47 theanticitizen wrote:
I've been having problems with the late game of Protoss, the "deathball" of stalker, zealot, sentry, colossi. I have no idea what to do in this situation. Any suggestions/build orders that can help with this? It's been really frustrating to deal with
To add to what John said, comprehensive build orders should discuss hive timings and and late game compositions (unless they aren't designed to get there  ), and for instance Blade's guide to Zergin' talks about these things, although they are relatively out-dated. I'd personally check out the double upgraded lings opening stub that John posted once upon a time as this transitions easily to the lategame of either Ultralisk/Infestor/Ling or a more air based composition. Here's the opening part of the build:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/450425-sc2-notes-soos-double-ups-ling-opening-zvp
Once you play around with that build some feel free to ask more questions about hive timings/safe ways to get there, but I definitely would recommend using the build a few times first to get a feel for how it flows.
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would like to know if roach hydra is viable on 4 player maps. ive recently started using it against terran on 2 player maps with great success.
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United States248 Posts
On August 24 2014 02:34 A_Scarecrow wrote:
would like to know if roach hydra is viable on 4 player maps. ive recently started using it against terran on 2 player maps with great success.
Yes definitely viable. Just don't watch + Show Spoiler +(RedBull Spoilers). Violet showcases it decently well, Hyun is probably the highest level player playing that style consistently in TvZ.
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Hello, I have a question: when the build order in the OP says "x4 lings," do they mean two sets of lings for a total of 4 or does it mean 4 pairs of lings for a total of eight? Thanks.
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On August 26 2014 04:56 wcLLg wrote:
Hello, I have a question: when the build order in the OP says "x4 lings," do they mean two sets of lings for a total of 4 or does it mean 4 pairs of lings for a total of eight? Thanks.
Two sets of lings for a total of 4.
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this might be a bit vague , but how the hell do you deal with mech? i fell that if he can get 4 bases or 5 its just gg regardless of anything i do
i hate playing vs mech so much its unreal, its gotten to the point where im considering just qutting the second i see more than 2 factories because the games gona be 40+ borefest that makes me question why i even play this game anymore
could anyone give some tips on how to kill mech quickly before swarmhosts are required, or just an allin that will end the game quickly either way so i dont have to deal with this playstyle
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United States4883 Posts
On August 26 2014 06:21 Enigmasc wrote:
this might be a bit vague , but how the hell do you deal with mech? i fell that if he can get 4 bases or 5 its just gg regardless of anything i do
i hate playing vs mech so much its unreal, its gotten to the point where im considering just qutting the second i see more than 2 factories because the games gona be 40+ borefest that makes me question why i even play this game anymore
could anyone give some tips on how to kill mech quickly before swarmhosts are required, or just an allin that will end the game quickly either way so i dont have to deal with this playstyle
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/402752-the-hots-zerg-help-me-thread?page=162#3221
There's a little bit of useful advice on this page. Generally, in the mid game, you want to be doing either
1) some kind big roach play or roach/hydra play
2) muta -> burrowed roach -> SH, or
3) muta -> SH
Muta/SH is the most consistent way to play against mech imo, but perhaps not the best way to "end it quickly". There's also a 2-base roach drop/nydus all-in against Terran that's pretty good, but you have to commit to it long before you actually know Terran is going mech. Good luck, I hope this helps some!
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EPT
