EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 197
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Maphack
8 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On August 31 2014 18:08 Maphack wrote: Hey guys. I am Gold player and I don't know how to play ZvT. It looks really confusing to me, someone goes roach+hydra(bad vs full bio), someone goes SH(weird), someone goes classic ling/bane/muta(bad vs hellbats) and I can't seem to find anything suitable. What's the best way to play ZvT nowadays? Pretty much depends on scouting. You obviously don't want to go hydras roach when there are too much of tanks or lings when there are hellbats. You can pretty much scout their army composition by counting their rax or factories really. Since you're gold, we won't go into details, but if they're going like a lot of rax (say 3+) then your best bet would be going for lings banes mutas. Just be careful of mines. If you see like 2+ factories then you shouldn't get too much lings otherwise they'd get roasted against hellions (and hellbats later on). Put down a roach warren as fast as you can and later on you can either go mutas or SH. Mutas are good if you can catch him offguard, otherwise SHs is you safest bet. Going sh against bio isn't really common, and not accessible to every player, I'd even advice you to not go SH at all. You can always try, but i wouldn't try too hard with that style really. | ||
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Maphack
8 Posts
On August 31 2014 21:27 RaiZ wrote: ... So current meta is mostly bio+tanks or bio+hellbats, right? | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On August 26 2014 06:53 SC2John wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/402752-the-hots-zerg-help-me-thread?page=162#3221 There's a little bit of useful advice on this page. Generally, in the mid game, you want to be doing either 1) some kind big roach play or roach/hydra play 2) muta -> burrowed roach -> SH, or 3) muta -> SH Muta/SH is the most consistent way to play against mech imo, but perhaps not the best way to "end it quickly". There's also a 2-base roach drop/nydus all-in against Terran that's pretty good, but you have to commit to it long before you actually know Terran is going mech. Good luck, I hope this helps some! thanks for the advice with dealing with mech ( there were a few others who gave some tips but i only know how to qoute one message :L ) finally managed to start taking games off mech XD iv been playing with the SH muta style and trying to keep the terran off 4 bases at all costs, quite doable especially on mpas like merry go round where you can backstab and ling runby etc as long as i keep the terran on 3 bases max it doesnt take too long to pick him apart with the muta especially when your on 5 bases +  | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic626 Posts
 Back on Wol Zerg use to do Banneling drops on protoss gateway armys... isnt this effective anymore? Like this Also what happend to this guy Spanishiwa demonstrates his absolutely no gas forever style of zerg play! :D this style desappeared. it was very good for big maps another games from spanishiwa and what happends that zerg doesnt do mass muta vs protoss anymore? what are the counterrs to this builds from zerg? im asking because i dont know the meta game that much anymore. | ||
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Maphack
8 Posts
On August 31 2014 23:43 SC2BF3Love wrote: ... Mutas are much more fragile in HotS; Overlords are slower(though overseers w/ overlord speed are as fast as mutas); Banelings are not very useful vs toss anymore(dunno why, did not play WoL). Few pro players still use them, but current zerg meta vs protoss is roach+hydra/swarmhost/ling+hydra, any of these complimented with infestors and vipers | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On August 31 2014 22:18 Maphack wrote: So current meta is mostly bio+tanks or bio+hellbats, right? Then go lings banes mutas. You can add a few roach to help against hellbats if you're willing to micro the lings and don't let them go close to the hellbats, but that's easier said than done. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On August 31 2014 22:18 Maphack wrote: So current meta is mostly bio+tanks or bio+hellbats, right? bio widowmine is probably the most common | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On August 31 2014 23:43 SC2BF3Love wrote: i have a couple of question, i was Protoss back on WOL... yeah i know this is a zerg thread... Back on Wol Zerg use to do Banneling drops on protoss gateway armys... isnt this effective anymore? Like this http://youtu.be/ItSK1YYF_yw?t=2m22s Also what happend to this guy Spanishiwa demonstrates his absolutely no gas forever style of zerg play! :D this style desappeared. it was very good for big maps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdnC8TZ1RZQ&list=UUaxar6TBM-94_ezoS00fLkA another games from spanishiwa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RE3NJtJqZ0 and what happends that zerg doesnt do mass muta vs protoss anymore? what are the counterrs to this builds from zerg? im asking because i dont know the meta game that much anymore. honestly it could work but its a bit f a gimmicky strat :L that and if he opens phoenix your porbably screwed ( which is what every macro toss has to do because of muta) the gassless build works still but its a lot less popular because protosses tend to go1 gate fe instead of forge and you need ling speed to hold off any gateway agression ( forge expands cant be aggressive as quick because slower tech and youll have roaches by they time they can push) | ||
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
ZvP Double Upgrade Ling style into Spire and or Infestation Pit? ZvZ any Gaseless Openener into +1/1 Roaches? ZvT any Geat Roch timing into roach hydra Replays | ||
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Kestnuts
United States29 Posts
Most ZvTs, I'm opening 15h/15g/15p/36 roach warren into a big ling/roach timing at 8:30 or so. It's very successful, and I'm able to keep my build tight and execute very well, but if I decide to play for the long game I feel a little less confident as far as queen timings, gas and tech buildings. If I go macro, I usually open 15h/17g/16p, then pull 2 drones off my gas when I start speed, and put them back on at around 6:30, take a 2nd gas and drop my evos and a roach warren. I still find myself struggling against hellbat and hellion banshee timings, though, and I'm not sure what I need to adjust. ZvZ I open standard 15p/16h/17g, but I'm still kinda just dropping my evos and roach warren, lair, and later techs at kinda random times. What are the safe, standard gas and tech timings in ZvZ? | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
Take this with a grain of salt as I'm only recently getting back into the game, but for ZvT I find it best to go something like 15h/15p/15g (p/g can be switched as you see fit), stop gas production as soon as you reach 100, pump out 4 queens as soon as possible and add more depending on what you scout. I know this style is more EU-Server than NA(I heard that it's not popular for Zergs to get more queens in NA), but it gives you the opportunity to have sick creep spread which is very, very important in ZvT. Anyway, I continue gas and get a second extractor at around 6ish minutes then 3rd/4th after lair/third. But it highly depends on my enemy, if I see early aggression that usually comes later, I get gas sooner to get banelings/roaches. If I can be safe for a little more, I try to squeeze in more drones to get an economic edge. Roach warren, to be safe, is placed at the same time I start extractors. Evo chambers I usually get at the same time as lair and I start 1/1 asap. In ZvZ I pretty much follow the same style although I sometimes never stop gas production to get banelings up, that way I can drop a second gas when I go lair and at the others as lair is finished. But again, that highly depends on whether or not you scout that you're safe or not. Getting gas should only be done if you have a specific thing in mind. You get first gas for speed, then defensive banelings. You get more gas in case of a roach attack, baneling bust etc. Later you get it for upgrades, mutas, or roach/hydra produciton. You don't need it to build drones. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 01 2014 10:18 Kestnuts wrote: I'm having a little trouble getting my build tightened up in ZvT and ZvZ when i'm going for a macro game. Most ZvTs, I'm opening 15h/15g/15p/36 roach warren into a big ling/roach timing at 8:30 or so. It's very successful, and I'm able to keep my build tight and execute very well, but if I decide to play for the long game I feel a little less confident as far as queen timings, gas and tech buildings. If I go macro, I usually open 15h/17g/16p, then pull 2 drones off my gas when I start speed, and put them back on at around 6:30, take a 2nd gas and drop my evos and a roach warren. I still find myself struggling against hellbat and hellion banshee timings, though, and I'm not sure what I need to adjust. ZvZ I open standard 15p/16h/17g, but I'm still kinda just dropping my evos and roach warren, lair, and later techs at kinda random times. What are the safe, standard gas and tech timings in ZvZ? ZvT:
ZvZ:
Hope this gives some clarity! | ||
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A3th3r
United States319 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 03 2014 02:05 A3th3r wrote: For Zerg, it is best to expand early, like in the first ten minutes or so. really the first five minutes. Rushes from the opponent are a risk with doing this but not so much these days because the maps are just too big to feasibly do that. SC:BW era, or even SC:Original era, different story. There were many rushes. The current metagame generally is a macro metagame. I think this is question? Anyhow, yes, Zerg can almost always get away with hatch first as long as the proper considerations are made. In general, most of SC2 Zerg is based around 3-base macro play, so you really want to get those first 3 bases up as quickly and safely as possible before really committing to a tech route or aggression. Of course, there are a few 2-base pressures, but they are a bit of a coinflip, so I tend to steer players looking to improve away from those. 1-base pressures are fairly non-existent other than a few early pool builds and 14/14, which is quickly coming back into the meta. | ||
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Kestnuts
United States29 Posts
On September 02 2014 10:57 SC2John wrote: ZvT:
ZvZ:
Hope this gives some clarity! Thanks for the reply. I don't always get the roach warren in ZvT, but 6:00-6:30 seems like a good time to drop if you do need it. Re: Queens - I usually get my second pair of queens as soon as my first pair finish, (~32 supply) then produce the 5th and 6th one at a time from my natural. Most of the terrans at my level seem to be suicidally aggressive and persistent with their hellions, producing 8 or more instead of the usual 4-6 and being rdiculously persistent with them, to the point where they neglect their macro to control them. It works out fine for me once we get past that point in the game, because I'm ahead so long as I didn't take damage, but it's really annoying. That's part of the reason I usually get the safety roach warren, the other being that this level of hellion aggression is usually a tell for a followup hellbat pressure. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 03 2014 08:07 brickrd wrote: unless youre opening gasless in zvt or snute's late gas i dont see how you can afford double queens on 32, youre cutting too many drones and you dont need to do that to deal with medium hellion pressure and for heavy pressure you can just get a spine and a wall +1. If you're opening hatch -> gas -> pool, you want to be producing queens one at a time out of your natural hatch until you get to 6 total. You'll have 3 queens to secure your 3rd at 6:30. That, combined with a well placed spine, a few lings, and an evo wall, you should be fine. And in the words of KawwaiRice: "If the Terran is going for ANYTHING other than 6 hellions into bio, it's terrible because their production just starts too late." In other words, if you defend the suicidal hellions, you can just reactively baneling bust with 100% positive results. See: Snute. | ||
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blarkh
Austria72 Posts
Thanks for your help! Edit: Actually it wasn't your usual Immortal all-in because it came rather late and with a ton of stalkers (in addition to 3 immortals and a ton of sentries), so I guess my question is actually 'For how much saturation do I go if my opponent doesn't get a third'. And another zvp question, since I'm actually rather lost on what to do in that matchup: If I scout my opponent rushing colossi and taking a third at about 9 minutes, how do I react? Are mutas viable? A quick attack? | ||
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Frankie Teardrop
United States74 Posts
What time do I drop safety spores in ZvP if my scouting overlord (6:00 for 1gate FE, 7:00 for FFE) is denied or doesn't spot any tech structures/mass gateways in the Protoss base? I don't want to sacrifice 3 drones and 225 minerals too early, but I obviously don't want to get crippled or killed by oracle or DT. Thanks! | ||
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