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On August 02 2014 22:22 Shiibopi wrote:
What should i do when i go hatch first in zvz, drone scout (to possibly delay his hatch first, and gather info ofc) and find gas and pool finished at my opponent? An attack is incomming any sec. Do i cancel hatch? Pull drones? This is something i have been struggling with alot lately
If you see a gas, you'll want to see how much he's already mined to get an idea how much time you have before speed hits. You'll also want to see if he has any intention of even laying down a hatch by having an OL near his nat.
With that said, if gas and pool comes before a hatch, you can definitely expect an early pressure incoming. If you hatched first, your best hope to stay in the game is to defend the 300 minerals you put into a hatchery. Drop a pool immediately and one gas. Soon as the pool is done, make queens to help block the ramp, pull drones as needed because it will be a battle of micro at some point. You can mix in a spine crawler if you'd like but I don't think it will be affordable, I'd personally prefer the extra drones/lings/queen in 50 more minerals.
If an expansion comes into play for your opponent, keep an OL nearby to just be able to see the mineral line. If theres no drones mining, the attack definitely is imminent.
TL;DR - I don't hatch first ZvZ unless walling off and going into roaches.
(Diamond Zerg. Certainly not claiming to be an expert, but wanted to offer my two cents.)
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that sounds like 10pool speed defense and is a totally different timing from 14/14 speedling or any type of baneling allin defense. if it's a 13 or 14pool gas before hatch speedling allin you don't have to block the ramp with queens initially you can just open banes before speed build units and micro better than your opponent. if the hatch is later than standard pool-hatch builds you don't have to scout the mineral line, it is a pressure build or your opponent is bad, so you can just make units. if pressure never comes just run across the map into his natural and see what he's doing (after making sure there aren't banelings morphing outside your base) because sometimes when you scout their aggression players will gamble on your overcommitment to defense and try to sneak out a hyper greedy roach transition
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United States4883 Posts
On August 02 2014 22:22 Shiibopi wrote:
What should i do when i go hatch first in zvz, drone scout (to possibly delay his hatch first, and gather info ofc) and find gas and pool finished at my opponent? An attack is incomming any sec. Do i cancel hatch? Pull drones? This is something i have been struggling with alot lately
If you scout out a 14/14 (whether by drone scout or just the lack of an expansion from your opponent via the overlord), you want to get a baneling nest FIRST with your first 50 gas and then get speed. From here, just put an emergency spine crawler down at your natural and wall off with queens. Just morph banelings on the ramp behind your queens and you'll be just fine against most early gas pressures.
Against early pools, you just need to make the distinction between fairly all-in pools (6-9) and more macro oriented pools (10, 11 overpool, and 12). Generally speaking, against early pools, you need to cancel your natural hatch and micro hard until you have a spine crawler or a queen out. Against the later, more economic pools, you can always keep the hatch at the natural, but you might have to pull a few drones to save it or what have you.
Keep in mind that on any 2-player map (and potentially if you scout in the right direction first on a 3-player or 4-player map), you can get all of the information necessary to block all of these. The drone scout literally just makes you feel a little more comfortable and gives you slightly more time to deal with it.
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On July 29 2014 07:45 Zheryn wrote:What's the proper response to a 3 pylon block on top of ramp when going 15 pool? Should I pull drones and start attacking them and then make lings? I can't get full surface area on the pylons so feels like he'll get a cannon up in time. In this game I made 2 spines right away and a creep tumor but I realised it took really long time to break out anyway... http://ggtracker.com/matches/5272735
I'm going to bump this since I just played 2 additional games like this and I seriously have no idea what the proper response is but I assume there must be a good one since I never see this in pro games.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290892
In game 1 I send a drone right after taking my nat since I was very suspicius of his early probe. I even manage to block the third pylon which would never happend otherwise. After that I try to break him with drones and later lings but I couldn't take down the buildings fast enough.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290899
In game 2 I don't block it since I don't see any probe and when I see the pylon block I go for the same response as the quoted game, 2 spines and a creep tumor, but even tho my opponent had horrible building placements it still takes really long to break out and my opponent basically has 2 bases saturated when my natural finishes.
It's always these horrible players that only go blind cannon rush/10gate etc that does this shit so therefor it's possible to get wins sometime even if getting contained to 1base for a long time... If a decent player would do this to me I don't know how I would ever win. Does anyone have any replay of you or someone else holding this and ending up ahead?
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Just a gold leaguer here, but i have a few cents to share.
2nd OL i always send on my natural for full vision vs a protoss (also vs random until confirmed race)
When making my spines like in game 2, i leapfrog them forward. I never unroot alll at the same time, unless i have som ling to protect. This way you would have avoided him getting high vision the 2nd time.
Hope it helps
/Trez
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On August 03 2014 17:30 Zheryn wrote:
It's always these horrible players that only go blind cannon rush/10gate etc that does this shit so therefor it's possible to get wins sometime even if getting contained to 1base for a long time... If a decent player would do this to me I don't know how I would ever win. Does anyone have any replay of you or someone else holding this and ending up ahead?
I recently broke this defended successfully, but unfortunately I don't have the replay on this PC. I hope you don't mind some feedback anyway:
1. Consider going 14 pool instead of 15 pool if you want to increase your win rate versus cannon rushes. In my experience, it helps a good deal against cannon rushes and especially against this pylon block because it naturally limits your defending force to what can hit one pylon in the wall simultaneously. The loss of mining time is pretty minimal, one drone mining for 20 seconds or so.
2. You can make it a habit to hotkey ~5 drones early on every game. Even if you are the fastest player on the planet, this will still make your reaction faster. You can do the same thing in ZvT with 8 or 9 drones to defend better against 11/11.
3. I think you can pull those ~5 drones as soon as you see any pylon that could become part of a pylon wall. Sure, Protoss sometimes makes fake pylons, but these are usually in the natural because of the longer distance. If the wall goes up, attack the middle pylon with your drones. Five should be the maximum IIRC. Once lings are out, they take over. With 14 pool, you should break out before the first cannon finishes; not sure about 15 pool.
4. In the first replay, where you manage to stop the third pylon from going up, you should have been to able to defend, but you attack that pylon for some reason. You also underreact quite a bit; you should probably either pull most of your drones or none at all, accepting your one-base fate. If you do the hotkey method, you can pull drones the second you identify the rush (2:45) and you've practically already defended it.
5. In that replay, you have 50 minerals the second your 15 pool goes down, which basically makes it a 16 pool. Your defence becomes a little weaker as a consequence. Delays like these happen to all of us, but, at the same time, you can place your pool behind the mineral line, making these delays a bit less likely to happen. You probably do that pool placement next to the geyser to make a nice SimCity for your spire, but it's also more vulnerable versus a 2 gate (this may be just me who's weak versus 2 gate ...).
6. In the second replay, you actually saw that your opponent canceled two of the pylons (a mindgame?), so you actually had the chance to defend the cannons with your drones – not sure if you realised. I think one spine is useful against these ramp rushes, but two might restrict your ability to get lings too much.
7. There's a YouTube video of Blade going 1 base roach versus this pylon block. Have you seen that? It might be useful.
Okay, this became much longer than expected. I hope at least some of it helps you.
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Thanks. I'll try to attack the pylon with as many drones I can get surface area for. Yeah I need to practise attacking the correct things when facing a defendable cannon rush. I didn't find that video tho.
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Any advice you guys can give me against Terran? (I'm in Top 25 Gold) I do fine against Zerg and Protoss, but against Terran I have a lot of trouble against drops and widow mines.
Is there a decent build that works well for ZvT in Gold, or something that I'm not seeing here?
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United States4883 Posts
On August 04 2014 10:31 Rahlekk wrote:
Any advice you guys can give me against Terran? (I'm in Top 25 Gold) I do fine against Zerg and Protoss, but against Terran I have a lot of trouble against drops and widow mines.
Is there a decent build that works well for ZvT in Gold, or something that I'm not seeing here?
On July 30 2014 03:10 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:45 DERASTAT wrote:
Can somebody give me a Build order for ling bling Muta versus terra that works against th enew hellbats pushes?,
preferable with more queens or earlyer Baneling nest instead of a roach warrren. It's essentially the old one plus either a baneling nest before upgrades OR an earlier roach warren. 9 overlord
15 hatch
16 pool
15 gas
17 overlord
@100% pool, build 2 queens and zerglings x2
@100 gas, start zergling speed and pull 2 drones off gas
26 overlord
@100% queens, start continual queen production at the natural until a total of 6 queens
32 overlord
40 overlord
**optional swell of lings when speed finishes**
@~6:15-6:30, start 3rd hatchery
@6:30, put 2 drones back on gas and start 2nd gas
@7:00 (150 gas), start double evos + roach warren
@100% evos, start +1 melee/+1 carapace
@100 gas, build 4 roaches
@100 gas, start lair
etc. If you want to skip roaches, just go baneling nest ~6:30 before evos and build a swell of lings around 7:30. You can also reverse the order of the upgrades and the roaches if you scout 2-base pressure (AKA no 3rd CC present).
That's essentially the most basic ZvT macro opener that Jaedong does like EVERY ZvT. You essentially open up hatch -> gas -> pool and make 4-6 lings and two queens to defend against reapers. Afterwards, you just keep making queens one at a time at your natural (or main on Nimbus) and take your third when zergling speed finishes with 2-3 queens.
To follow up, you are essentially going tech (RW or baneling nest) -> double ups -> lair. From there, just macro well, make ling/bling when necessary, and get out mutas as soon as your lair finishes.
Hope this clears up some confusion for you and gets you on the right track! Let me know if there are any questions or concerns about the build.
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On August 04 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 10:31 Rahlekk wrote:
Any advice you guys can give me against Terran? (I'm in Top 25 Gold) I do fine against Zerg and Protoss, but against Terran I have a lot of trouble against drops and widow mines.
Is there a decent build that works well for ZvT in Gold, or something that I'm not seeing here? Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:10 SC2John wrote:On July 30 2014 02:45 DERASTAT wrote:
Can somebody give me a Build order for ling bling Muta versus terra that works against th enew hellbats pushes?,
preferable with more queens or earlyer Baneling nest instead of a roach warrren. It's essentially the old one plus either a baneling nest before upgrades OR an earlier roach warren. 9 overlord
15 hatch
16 pool
15 gas
17 overlord
@100% pool, build 2 queens and zerglings x2
@100 gas, start zergling speed and pull 2 drones off gas
26 overlord
@100% queens, start continual queen production at the natural until a total of 6 queens
32 overlord
40 overlord
**optional swell of lings when speed finishes**
@~6:15-6:30, start 3rd hatchery
@6:30, put 2 drones back on gas and start 2nd gas
@7:00 (150 gas), start double evos + roach warren
@100% evos, start +1 melee/+1 carapace
@100 gas, build 4 roaches
@100 gas, start lair
etc. If you want to skip roaches, just go baneling nest ~6:30 before evos and build a swell of lings around 7:30. You can also reverse the order of the upgrades and the roaches if you scout 2-base pressure (AKA no 3rd CC present). That's essentially the most basic ZvT macro opener that Jaedong does like EVERY ZvT. You essentially open up hatch -> gas -> pool and make 4-6 lings and two queens to defend against reapers. Afterwards, you just keep making queens one at a time at your natural (or main on Nimbus) and take your third when zergling speed finishes with 2-3 queens. To follow up, you are essentially going tech (RW or baneling nest) -> double ups -> lair. From there, just macro well, make ling/bling when necessary, and get out mutas as soon as your lair finishes. Hope this clears up some confusion for you and gets you on the right track! Let me know if there are any questions or concerns about the build.
@6:30, put 2 drones back on gas and start 2nd gas
Is that meant to be 2 drones or is it just a typo?
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Not a typo. after you started speed leave one drone in gas
@100 gas, start zergling speed and pull 2 drones off gas
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On August 04 2014 08:18 Zheryn wrote:
Thanks. I'll try to attack the pylon with as many drones I can get surface area for. Yeah I need to practise attacking the correct things when facing a defendable cannon rush. I didn't find that video tho.
It's the second video in this thread.
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Northern Ireland281 Posts
What makes you folks decide to research overlord speed? Do you rely on slow overseer's to fly over bases before it kicks in, or do you use changlings?
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On August 04 2014 17:56 Tzyx wrote:
What makes you folks decide to research overlord speed? Do you rely on slow overseer's to fly over bases before it kicks in, or do you use changlings?
I think early overlord speed (~6:00) is useful in ZvT and ZvP on four-player maps if the spawn positions make it difficult to scout without it. Say, you're playing ZvP on Nimbus and you're sending your first two overlords to the close positions, but find out it's cross positions. Then you'll need early overlord speed if you want to scout the Protoss main while keeping an eye on the natural gases.
When you're scouting with an overseer, a slow overseer should usually suffice. In ZvT, where you're usually getting overlord speed anyway, your overseer might have speed when it finishes, which is a nice bonus. A Changeling can help, but relies on the opponent not paying attention.
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If you go that early Overlord speed, you are just giving away freewins against very fast gateway pushes and sentry/immortal pushes in PvZ. I believe you need every single bit of resource you can get against such builds at that time and you'd have to delay something else that is crucial - units, unit upgrades, lair - at that time to get the speed.
In TvZ it is nice if the Terran goes some standard build to confrim what exactly he is doing (banshees, double ups, mech, some drop shennanigans). But to confirm an allin it is not really that good. It either costs you so much, so that if he realizes it, he can basically just expand of an aggressive opening without attacking, while you still have to prepare. Or it comes so late, that it won't matter anyways that you scouted the armory, because you either have a roach warren then, or you don't.
Imo, the best way to scout is still plain overlord saccing. On big maps that's of course a little bit of a problem, but with Alterzim gone and Deadwing being a 3spawn map, there is currently no map in the pool on which it would be impossible to get an Overlord to his base. And especially against reaper and forge openings, you can keep your OL in his base for quite some time, counting gas, counting units, watching chrono, watching tech buildings going down.
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On August 04 2014 19:07 Big J wrote:
If you go that early Overlord speed, you are just giving away freewins against very fast gateway pushes and sentry/immortal pushes in PvZ. I believe you need every single bit of resource you can get against such builds at that time and you'd have to delay something else that is crucial - units, unit upgrades, lair - at that time to get the speed.
This is somewhat true, but having every bit of resources won't help you if you don't know at all what to prepare against. Since if you don't, things like that ZvP game on cross positions Nimbus which I recently played: I scouted the robo and no third, but had to sacrifice the overlord on the Protoss natural. I then decided to prepare for a soul train, only to be hit by a man train after a big wave of drones ...
There are still pros and cons, of course, but it's certainly a viable reaction to unfortunate spawn positions.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 04 2014 13:47 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:On August 04 2014 10:31 Rahlekk wrote:
Any advice you guys can give me against Terran? (I'm in Top 25 Gold) I do fine against Zerg and Protoss, but against Terran I have a lot of trouble against drops and widow mines.
Is there a decent build that works well for ZvT in Gold, or something that I'm not seeing here? On July 30 2014 03:10 SC2John wrote:On July 30 2014 02:45 DERASTAT wrote:
Can somebody give me a Build order for ling bling Muta versus terra that works against th enew hellbats pushes?,
preferable with more queens or earlyer Baneling nest instead of a roach warrren. It's essentially the old one plus either a baneling nest before upgrades OR an earlier roach warren. 9 overlord
15 hatch
16 pool
15 gas
17 overlord
@100% pool, build 2 queens and zerglings x2
@100 gas, start zergling speed and pull 2 drones off gas
26 overlord
@100% queens, start continual queen production at the natural until a total of 6 queens
32 overlord
40 overlord
**optional swell of lings when speed finishes**
@~6:15-6:30, start 3rd hatchery
@6:30, put 2 drones back on gas and start 2nd gas
@7:00 (150 gas), start double evos + roach warren
@100% evos, start +1 melee/+1 carapace
@100 gas, build 4 roaches
@100 gas, start lair
etc. If you want to skip roaches, just go baneling nest ~6:30 before evos and build a swell of lings around 7:30. You can also reverse the order of the upgrades and the roaches if you scout 2-base pressure (AKA no 3rd CC present). That's essentially the most basic ZvT macro opener that Jaedong does like EVERY ZvT. You essentially open up hatch -> gas -> pool and make 4-6 lings and two queens to defend against reapers. Afterwards, you just keep making queens one at a time at your natural (or main on Nimbus) and take your third when zergling speed finishes with 2-3 queens. To follow up, you are essentially going tech (RW or baneling nest) -> double ups -> lair. From there, just macro well, make ling/bling when necessary, and get out mutas as soon as your lair finishes. Hope this clears up some confusion for you and gets you on the right track! Let me know if there are any questions or concerns about the build. @6:30, put 2 drones back on gas and start 2nd gas Is that meant to be 2 drones or is it just a typo?
As the MaRa17 mentioned, it's correct since you pull 2 drones out of gas earlier. It can also work just the same if you pull all drones out of gas and put them back in at 6:00*. I just prefer the 2 drones out because I like to have the 100 gas indicator at 6:30 that reminds me that I need to put stuff back in gas.
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On August 04 2014 23:02 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2014 13:47 ThePastor wrote:On August 04 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:On August 04 2014 10:31 Rahlekk wrote:
Any advice you guys can give me against Terran? (I'm in Top 25 Gold) I do fine against Zerg and Protoss, but against Terran I have a lot of trouble against drops and widow mines.
Is there a decent build that works well for ZvT in Gold, or something that I'm not seeing here? On July 30 2014 03:10 SC2John wrote:On July 30 2014 02:45 DERASTAT wrote:
Can somebody give me a Build order for ling bling Muta versus terra that works against th enew hellbats pushes?,
preferable with more queens or earlyer Baneling nest instead of a roach warrren. It's essentially the old one plus either a baneling nest before upgrades OR an earlier roach warren. 9 overlord
15 hatch
16 pool
15 gas
17 overlord
@100% pool, build 2 queens and zerglings x2
@100 gas, start zergling speed and pull 2 drones off gas
26 overlord
@100% queens, start continual queen production at the natural until a total of 6 queens
32 overlord
40 overlord
**optional swell of lings when speed finishes**
@~6:15-6:30, start 3rd hatchery
@6:30, put 2 drones back on gas and start 2nd gas
@7:00 (150 gas), start double evos + roach warren
@100% evos, start +1 melee/+1 carapace
@100 gas, build 4 roaches
@100 gas, start lair
etc. If you want to skip roaches, just go baneling nest ~6:30 before evos and build a swell of lings around 7:30. You can also reverse the order of the upgrades and the roaches if you scout 2-base pressure (AKA no 3rd CC present). That's essentially the most basic ZvT macro opener that Jaedong does like EVERY ZvT. You essentially open up hatch -> gas -> pool and make 4-6 lings and two queens to defend against reapers. Afterwards, you just keep making queens one at a time at your natural (or main on Nimbus) and take your third when zergling speed finishes with 2-3 queens. To follow up, you are essentially going tech (RW or baneling nest) -> double ups -> lair. From there, just macro well, make ling/bling when necessary, and get out mutas as soon as your lair finishes. Hope this clears up some confusion for you and gets you on the right track! Let me know if there are any questions or concerns about the build. @6:30, put 2 drones back on gas and start 2nd gas Is that meant to be 2 drones or is it just a typo? As the MaRa17 mentioned, it's correct since you pull 2 drones out of gas earlier. It can also work just the same if you pull all drones out of gas and put them back in at 6:00*. I just prefer the 2 drones out because I like to have the 100 gas indicator at 6:30 that reminds me that I need to put stuff back in gas.
/facepalm moment. Should probably go back to learning to read properly and give up on sc2. Default was thinking all drones out of gas.
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So I have a method of injects I like, but how do I simply remember to inject on time? I got crushed multiple times today because my army was pathetically small. It seems like my macro game is just so off... and I thought that was my stregnth until today. If it's just a practice thing I'll keep trying I guess but it seems like even if I did have any inject skill I have no money to spend... so I guess I have not enough drones either... I'm just lost right now... help?
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United States4883 Posts
On August 05 2014 12:32 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I have a method of injects I like, but how do I simply remember to inject on time? I got crushed multiple times today because my army was pathetically small. It seems like my macro game is just so off... and I thought that was my stregnth until today. If it's just a practice thing I'll keep trying I guess but it seems like even if I did have any inject skill I have no money to spend... so I guess I have not enough drones either... I'm just lost right now... help?
That was a short uninstall break.
I highly suggest looking up the "Zerg inject and creep spread" map in the arcade. I practice that thing daily by constantly injecting, spreading 2-3 tumors down each lane, and keeping 2-3 groups of zerglings in constant motion. Just doing that like 15-20 minutes a day will help get your play so much more on track in terms of macro.
As far as actual gameplay goes, you probably just need to perfect your build orders some. Pick a build order from IMBAbuilds or one here on TL and just drill the hell out of it until you can hit all benchmarks properly. That, combined with the overall mechanical practice you get from playing the creep spread/inject map, will help carry you through ladder a lot better.
IN GENERAL, you want to try to reach the saturation that you need and then pump nothing but units. For instance, for 3 base pure roach, you want 4 geysers and 3 base mineral saturation, so your goal is to get to that saturation with as few units for defense as possible, then add on the roaches. So just make sure you're hitting that saturation above all else and playing defensively. The biggest issue people run into is that they end up trying to micromanage or attack too much as Zerg when all you really need to do is play defensively and get the right amount of saturation and you'll be golden  .
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EPT
