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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
does anybody know where i can find a muta into roach build order? thinking of trying it out just to mix up my zvz a bit because it seems pretty good vs standard roach play and sich also has anyone got any tips on dealing with mech or tips on how to play the muta/switch style in pvz? ( since i used to always play roach hydra but i seem to repeatedly die if they toss gets 4 basses because i dont know what to transition to ) | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On August 10 2014 20:21 Enigmasc wrote: hey guys just a couple of questions really does anybody know where i can find a muta into roach build order? thinking of trying it out just to mix up my zvz a bit because it seems pretty good vs standard roach play and sich also has anyone got any tips on dealing with mech or tips on how to play the muta/switch style in pvz? ( since i used to always play roach hydra but i seem to repeatedly die if they toss gets 4 basses because i dont know what to transition to ) It's just a muta build in which you stop at like 10 or less mutas and you add roach +2x evo when you finish your spire. | ||
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Glitch890
22 Posts
If you open pool first whatever he does before your overlord gets there doesn't matter as you can hold, and if you go hatch first you can't re-actively pool anyways if you see cheese, so there is no purpose. My question is, when I scout 4 gate/ 4 gate +1 coming, how many drones should I sit on? I normally stop making drones when I scout it (6 mins) and pump roaches as soon as my warren is done (6 minute warren as well). Is there a more efficient way to do this? I feel like if the toss scouts that I already have roaches he'll just abandon his attack and I'll have dumped gas into useless units. Thanks for any help. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 10 2014 22:30 Karpfen wrote: It's just a muta build in which you stop at like 10 or less mutas and you add roach +2x evo when you finish your spire. you dont necessarily need to go 2x evo, usually with muta into roach the point is to be ahead in economy and win with a superior roach push while your opponent is hung up on a transition into hydra or infestor. single evo +1 attack is my preferred transition. if youre going to play a long game with double evo ups i dont really see the point of opening muta as its a less stable style than standard roach and you will never ever have the upgrades faster than your opponent anyway | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 11 2014 08:19 brickrd wrote: you dont necessarily need to go 2x evo, usually with muta into roach the point is to be ahead in economy and win with a superior roach push while your opponent is hung up on a transition into hydra or infestor. single evo +1 attack is my preferred transition. if youre going to play a long game with double evo ups i dont really see the point of opening muta as its a less stable style than standard roach and you will never ever have the upgrades faster than your opponent anyway It really works either way, depending on how far ahead you can get with the mutas. But yeah, generally the safest thing is to go single evo/roach warren. There are also muta into SH builds that play a little bit more defensively, but those can be trickier to pull off. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I've seen builds that flood speedlings to deny 3rds, gasless builds, quick 3rds, delayed 3rds or what have you... As a traditional muta player that wishes to switch to some roach play, I'm a bit lost... | ||
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einduden
Germany13 Posts
Works quite well in Dia, and don´t be afraid of Muta´s, 5-7 Mutas can´t stop this. | ||
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silly
Sweden18 Posts
On August 11 2014 17:11 einduden wrote: @DjayEI Try the 1/1 Roachpush off 2 Base into 3rd. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLpOrsJT96U Works quite well in Dia, and don´t be afraid of Muta´s, 5-7 Mutas can´t stop this. As someone that likes muta builds but isnt currently up to speed with current meta, is there a muta opening in zvz that holds this 1/1 roach opening? And if so, what is it? And/Or is it only applicable to certain maps and if so, which ones? Bonus question; Is there a compilation of suggested/recommended initial ~5-6 OL paths for current ladder map pool? | ||
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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einduden
Germany13 Posts
You can counter it with Mutabuild, but u have to go straight into Mutas, build 3-5 Spines at ur Natural (eventually sack your third if already taken) and spent all your Mins in Lings, to block for the Spines. This is the only way i could hold this without going Roaches myself, but it is a very strong timing, but easy to scout (you only need to know if he researches speed or not, and the timing of the lair and the third) So fast lair + no third + complete wallof + both evo´s wiggeling= most of the time this build. or fast muta´s, but you also went mutas so that doesn´t concern you much. Edit: At higher lvl´s watch out for fake --> The opponent can cancel the lair ad do a 1/1 Ling allin with 80+ lings | ||
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silly
Sweden18 Posts
On August 11 2014 21:12 einduden wrote: @silly You can counter it with Mutabuild, but u have to go straight into Mutas, build 3-5 Spines at ur Natural (eventually sack your third if already taken) and spent all your Mins in Lings, to block for the Spines. This is the only way i could hold this without going Roaches myself, but it is a very strong timing, but easy to scout (you only need to know if he researches speed or not, and the timing of the lair and the third) So fast lair + no third + complete wallof + both evo´s wiggeling= most of the time this build. or fast muta´s, but you also went mutas so that doesn´t concern you much. Okay, that made me think: how does a 1/1 ling build stand against the 1/1 roach build? Would require an earlier third than the roach opening to support the required larva count by going lings. (could be that ez there is a common known 1/1 ling build?! =) ) | ||
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einduden
Germany13 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Learning myself some Zerg and I'm having trouble in the early game vs. Protoss with one build in particular: 1 gate expand into 3-4 gate. I don't usually die to this, but overdefending puts me behind because the Protoss just doesn't commit to it. What's the ideal way to hold this off and be economically ahead or at least even? Also I find that it's really hard to spread creep vs Protoss (as opposed to vs Terran. Builds don't seem to account for queens as much as they do vs T. ANy advice? Sorry if my Qs are a bit basic, I'm a Protoss player. TYTY | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 11 2014 16:09 DjayEl wrote: Speaking about Roaches, what is the safest, strongest, most stable ZvZ roach build in the current meta (good for pro, and on the ladder as well)? I've seen builds that flood speedlings to deny 3rds, gasless builds, quick 3rds, delayed 3rds or what have you... As a traditional muta player that wishes to switch to some roach play, I'm a bit lost... The gasless build posted above is good, but you can also do a gas opening and get to about the same place. Essentially, you get your second gas around 5:30 (assuming no huge ling/bling pressure that you have to hold and then take your 3rd with a few ling/bane as you're getting the roaches out. Quick 3rds, in general, are usually against gasless builds. Against builds that open with speed, it's going to be a pain in the ass to defend that base. On August 11 2014 20:27 silly wrote: As someone that likes muta builds but isnt currently up to speed with current meta, is there a muta opening in zvz that holds this 1/1 roach opening? And if so, what is it? And/Or is it only applicable to certain maps and if so, which ones? Bonus question; Is there a compilation of suggested/recommended initial ~5-6 OL paths for current ladder map pool? All muta builds can block the 1/1 roach opening. It's not a timing that's designed to kill you, it's supposed to buy time for the roach player. All you need to do is flood ~40-60 lings and get your mutas out as you can, surround the roaches, and then counterattack. The 1/1 roach attack is only like ~12 roaches at the most, so you really shouldn't have a problem holding this with just lings and a handful of mutas. Jaedong also tends to send his first ~20 lings to the 3rd base to counterattack and prevent the roach player from droning too greedily. If you're routinely dying to this, you're probably either playing too defensively in the early game or not getting your lair fast enough (or not macroing well). Einduden is wrong. Do NOT overreact with spines and sacrifice the 3rd base unless it's a pre-lair timing, which is something ENTIRELY different from the 1/1 roach timing. As far as overlord paths...it's always variable depending on what your opponent does, etc. Usually the first overlord spots the front then finds somewhere to check drone saturation. Second overlord does something similar + maybe spots the 3rd base. 3rd overlord checks your front, and then all the rest of them generally check all the counterattack pathways + the center of the map for pressure. On August 11 2014 20:49 LucoxP wrote: Does anyone have a writeup on TRUE's ZvP playstyle vs Zest with the corrupter ling queen timing into Mutalisk? How viable do you think it is as a style to use on ladder rather than a specific opponent like TRUE used it for? DRG did a much better version of this build against Myungsik in GSL Code A, so check out those games. Solar also did a similar build quite a bit at IEM. It seems to be a blind counter against phoenix openings where you get 8-10 queens instead of spores and tech up really greedily to +1/+1 melee and flood ling/corruptor at around 11:30ish. Behind this, you take 4th and 5th bases. I'm not 100% of it's viability, but it seems like even when it doesn't kill the Protoss army, it at least resets the colossus/VR count, and sets you up really nicely for muta/corruptor mid game. On August 11 2014 21:23 silly wrote: Okay, that made me think: how does a 1/1 ling build stand against the 1/1 roach build? Would require an earlier third than the roach opening to support the required larva count by going lings. (could be that ez there is a common known 1/1 ling build?! =) ) Eh, +1/+1 lings are not so great in ZvZ, but they can probably do decently against this opening. The only difference is that your mutas are super delayed, so you have to get a lot done with the first ling swell. Again, I'm not so sure of the wisdom of einduden's response; it's generally situational whether or not you can make counterattacks or not, but yeah, essentially the Zerg player can just keep making roaches and just kill you ~170 supply because you just can't kill the roaches fast enough with delayed mutas and lings (even double upgraded lings). In general, double upgraded ling builds in ZvZ do A LOT of counterattacking to try and delay for as long as possible for more mutas. On August 11 2014 22:43 DinoMight wrote: Hey all, Learning myself some Zerg and I'm having trouble in the early game vs. Protoss with one build in particular: 1 gate expand into 3-4 gate. I don't usually die to this, but overdefending puts me behind because the Protoss just doesn't commit to it. What's the ideal way to hold this off and be economically ahead or at least even? Also I find that it's really hard to spread creep vs Protoss (as opposed to vs Terran. Builds don't seem to account for queens as much as they do vs T. ANy advice? Sorry if my Qs are a bit basic, I'm a Protoss player. TYTY Against the warp gate pressure, you need to identify the number of gates with an overlord scout ~6:00. If you opened up speed, you just go ahead and build a round of lings with the first inject (should be around 30 lings), and then you just surround it ftw. If it's the sangate version (10-gate), you'll need roaches, though. You can also pretty reliably deal with it with roaches (although the roaches aren't as useful later on). To do this, just add a second gas and a roach warren around 6:15-6:30 and build another round of drones with ~6-8 lings plus 2-3 queens to stall for time. If the Protoss doesn't commit fully to it, it's still not a HUGE deal because they generally delay their tech and natural gases quite a bit for it, so don't fret too much. Just continue to drone and continue on with your build. As far as queen numbers, just make sure you always have 4-5. In ZvP, you usually have one queen per hatchery and then a 4th one for spreading creep. I tend to go double queen before 3rd now, so I usually get my 3rd and 4th queens about the time that the 3rd hatchery finishes. If I go triple hatch before any queens, I usually start 2 queens when my pool finishes and 2 queens after that. For triple hatch before pool, you wanna start 3 queens at the same time when pool finishes and then one queen after that. On August 11 2014 22:45 DinoMight wrote: Also, 2/2 roach hydra max vs Terran... seems to work amazingly even if they start making tanks etc. You pressure at 10 mins with about 20 roaches and hit around 14 minutes maxed. Any reason this isn't figured out / nobody does this on pro scene? My buddy in high Masters taught me it and it its so easy. HyuN did it a ton for a while, but I think Terran players figured out that they can't take a 9:30 3rd and just sit in the middle of the map versus it. As a result, I think it's faded out of style for now. But still, I agree with you: I call it "The blink stalker all-in of ZvT" kekekeke. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On August 11 2014 22:45 DinoMight wrote: Also, 2/2 roach hydra max vs Terran... seems to work amazingly even if they start making tanks etc. You pressure at 10 mins with about 20 roaches and hit around 14 minutes maxed. Any reason this isn't figured out / nobody does this on pro scene? My buddy in high Masters taught me it and it its so easy. | ||
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uzi88
United States8 Posts
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TokyoGirl
Japan116 Posts
On August 12 2014 05:32 uzi88 wrote: anyone have a good ling/bane/muta build? preferably scarlett's? ive been playing roach 1-1/roach hydra 2-2 style but get rekt late game when they get alot of medivacs... I think this might be exactly what you are looking for. http://imbabuilds.com/hots-zerg/hots-zvt/zvt-scarletts-macro-mutalisk-style/ However, if you scout an early armory, I suggest you get baneling nest or roach warren + extra queens before evo chambers to be safe. Edit: also she is playing WCS today, you should watch!! | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
maybe someone has at least somewhat nice builds like that as counterplay vs some opponent builds in all MUs? | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On August 12 2014 06:26 Decendos wrote: are there any fun yet effective ZvX strats that change up the metagame without sucking? drop play, midgame infestor play, burrowed roaches, neural, nydus, ling bane hydra zvt, whatever. i feel bored playing the same 1-2 strats in each MU every game. would love to see especially drop play, nydus and burrow play be viable but dont think blizz buffs it even in LotV. maybe someone has at least somewhat nice builds like that as counterplay vs some opponent builds in all MUs? someone showed a one base burrow roach rush vs T. looked quite good. I think it was starbuck vs tajea | ||
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