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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 26 2014 05:19 Solar424 wrote: How many mutas should I make in ZvT against bio? http://imgur.com/z3FHO6c 29. Always. But seriously, the magic number of mutalisks is generally around 30-35. This is enough to one shot mines (and even splash damage kill a second mine?), plus it's just an insurmountable number of mutas for the Terran player to deal with unless they have a pretty handy chunk of army positioned correctly. | ||
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Jowj
United States248 Posts
I haven't had much chance to play post patch, but here are the options I am imagining:
What is everyone else's opinion? The data that John posted is what mattered pre-patch, so i'm just thinking of stuff post. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On July 27 2014 00:01 Jowj wrote: I agree with John for prepatch stuff, but what about post patch? I do want to talk about fewer numbers of mutas while favoring stronger numbers of ling bane earlier/teching faster. Something like 18-20 mutas can 1shot mines/turrets effectively, and then you have a lot more gas (1k/1k!) for other units earlier seems like a large deal to me. Especially with the mine nerf reverted Zergs will have to cut some corner I think, so this may be one. I haven't had much chance to play post patch, but here are the options I am imagining:
What is everyone else's opinion? The data that John posted is what mattered pre-patch, so i'm just thinking of stuff post. Nah, you can't ever get infestors if the game is even without tipping the balance in terran favour. Same for faster hive. Going heavy on mutas is still worth it. It's worse than before but still good nonetheless. I also expect speed roach speed bane to come back because of T going heavy on mines again. (data john posted are a joke.. and I mean it literally) | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 27 2014 00:01 Jowj wrote: I agree with John for prepatch stuff, but what about post patch? I do want to talk about fewer numbers of mutas while favoring stronger numbers of ling bane earlier/teching faster. Something like 18-20 mutas can 1shot mines/turrets effectively, and then you have a lot more gas (1k/1k!) for other units earlier seems like a large deal to me. Especially with the mine nerf reverted Zergs will have to cut some corner I think, so this may be one. I haven't had much chance to play post patch, but here are the options I am imagining:
What is everyone else's opinion? The data that John posted is what mattered pre-patch, so i'm just thinking of stuff post. I expect that 30-35 mutas will still be the sweet spot, but Zergs will just get to that number a little bit slower, instead favoring more gas on banelings. The first instances where we saw Zergs beating Terrans before the mine nerf was with that ~30 mutalisk cloud, and I don't expect that to change as we head back into the patch again. But, in general, the hellbat change coupled with the mine change is probably going to result in later mutas and more bane/roach in earlier stages of the game. But Zergs will still probably go up to ~30 mutas before hive because it's just the safest transition. | ||
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Frankie Teardrop
United States74 Posts
I'm wondering of those gas timings are the same for other Protoss openers as well, such as 1 gate FE or nexus > gate > core. The reason I ask is because I've been having more trouble scouting Protoss with this current map pool than I have in seasons past. I'm still okay when they open FFE because the response from Zerg is much more straightforward and I am aware of the gas timings, but if they open any other way, I feel like I'm guessing a lot of the time. The maps are bigger and there is more space within the main bases, so when I sacrifice my 6:00 overlord, I find it often gets shot down before it sees anything important. As a result, the only way I know when to stop droning and make units is to check the natural gas timings (which I am unfamiliar with, aside from FFE) and poking with my lings at the front. Often times, I don't know to cut drones and mass units until the Protoss is already moving out and killing my lings at his front and watchtowers, and it's too little too late. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 27 2014 04:13 Frankie Teardrop wrote: I know that when scouting a forge expanding Protoss, if they have not taken gas at their natural expansion by 6:00-6:30 that I should be suspicious, and if they haven't taken gas by 7:00, I should expect an all in. I'm wondering of those gas timings are the same for other Protoss openers as well, such as 1 gate FE or nexus > gate > core. The reason I ask is because I've been having more trouble scouting Protoss with this current map pool than I have in seasons past. I'm still okay when they open FFE because the response from Zerg is much more straightforward and I am aware of the gas timings, but if they open any other way, I feel like I'm guessing a lot of the time. The maps are bigger and there is more space within the main bases, so when I sacrifice my 6:00 overlord, I find it often gets shot down before it sees anything important. As a result, the only way I know when to stop droning and make units is to check the natural gas timings (which I am unfamiliar with, aside from FFE) and poking with my lings at the front. Often times, I don't know to cut drones and mass units until the Protoss is already moving out and killing my lings at his front and watchtowers, and it's too little too late. Well...AS I LEARNED TODAY...nexus -> gate is complete bullshit. But other than that, for gate expands, I recommend just getting early ling speed, then putting drones back on gas around 6:00-6:30. Pretty much all the timings versus gate expand are about a minute earlier. So your overlord scouts @6:00 for gate expand, @7:00 for FFE (BTW, couple this with a ling poke at the front for best results). Your standard roach warren timing is 7:00-7:30 for gate expands, your standard roach warren is 8:00-8:30 for FFE, etc. If you're ever in doubt of what's coming, and you can't get any tech information, just throw down safety spores and a roach warren around 7:00 (8:00 for FFE). Spores and roaches defend everything  . If you suddenly scout phoenixes or some immortals shortly after putting down the spores, you can just cancel them and respond more appropriately.(These are all timings for 1-gate FE). Biggest times of aggression are 6:00-7:00 (warpgate timing), 7:30-8:30 (early all-ins), and 9:30-10:30 (2-base all-ins). All you need to do for warp gate timings is assess how strong the pressure is and whether or not you need roaches. For early all-ins (that 7-gate you hate and the MAN train), just get an emergency roach warren off of 2 gases. And then 3-4 gases roach/ling or hydra/ling for 2-base timings. All you need to identify WHEN it's coming based off of clues and you'll already know how to defend it. Getting all this information is simply about keeping an eye on the Protoss 3rd base, scouting at the right times, checking the natural geysers (no geysers by 6:00-7:00 is VERY fishy always), and just generally being active with your lings around the map. I cannot comment on Nexus -> gate at the present time because I'm still trying to figure that out. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
On July 25 2014 00:37 Jowj wrote: Scarlett isn't going into SH before broods in her ZvZ games so i think there may be something we're missing. Unfortunately she's really the only one playing that style at the top level so we don't really have enough information. These are ways I've seen her play it:
Where did you see her play like that? I'd like to see it. | ||
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Frankie Teardrop
United States74 Posts
On July 27 2014 11:05 SC2John wrote: Well...AS I LEARNED TODAY...nexus -> gate is complete bullshit. But other than that, for gate expands, I recommend just getting early ling speed, then putting drones back on gas around 6:00-6:30. Pretty much all the timings versus gate expand are about a minute earlier. So your overlord scouts @6:00 for gate expand, @7:00 for FFE (BTW, couple this with a ling poke at the front for best results). Your standard roach warren timing is 7:00-7:30 for gate expands, your standard roach warren is 8:00-8:30 for FFE, etc. If you're ever in doubt of what's coming, and you can't get any tech information, just throw down safety spores and a roach warren around 7:00 (8:00 for FFE). Spores and roaches defend everything . If you suddenly scout phoenixes or some immortals shortly after putting down the spores, you can just cancel them and respond more appropriately.(These are all timings for 1-gate FE). Biggest times of aggression are 6:00-7:00 (warpgate timing), 7:30-8:30 (early all-ins), and 9:30-10:30 (2-base all-ins). All you need to do for warp gate timings is assess how strong the pressure is and whether or not you need roaches. For early all-ins (that 7-gate you hate and the MAN train), just get an emergency roach warren off of 2 gases. And then 3-4 gases roach/ling or hydra/ling for 2-base timings. All you need to identify WHEN it's coming based off of clues and you'll already know how to defend it. Getting all this information is simply about keeping an eye on the Protoss 3rd base, scouting at the right times, checking the natural geysers (no geysers by 6:00-7:00 is VERY fishy always), and just generally being active with your lings around the map. I cannot comment on Nexus -> gate at the present time because I'm still trying to figure that out. You the man John! So even against 1gate FE, if there's no gas at the natural by 6:00 or so, I should start preparing? Good to know. As for that 7 gate 1 gas all in, I have a few more replays agains the same guy where I utilize the advice I learned here, but still fail to hold. I will post them as soon as I get the chance. Basically, he goes nexus > gate > 1 gas > cyber core, then does nothing but add 6 more gateways while warpgate is researching, and completely walls off his natural after he moves out with his probe and zealot. I open pool > hatch > hatch and take double gas at about 5:50 (42 supply). I rush to 2 full base mineral saturation and 6 drones on gas. I throw down a roach warren at 6:30 and skip ling speed for emergency roaches. By 7:00, he is warping in zealots and stalkers 7 at a time near my 3rd base. The way I see it, there's absolutely no way to hold my 3rd against this, unless I start building several spines there before 6:00, which will severely cripple my economy and still might not hold. My roach warren is only halfway done, and no amount of slow lings can fend off 7 gates worth of zealot warpins, even with 3-4 queens supporting them. As he is killing my 3rd (I pulled my queen there back to the natural), I throw down 2-3 spines at my natural and make a round of slow lings while my roach warren is finishing up. From here on out, I produce roaches non-stop, but even with constant roaches, 3 spines, 3 queens, and some slow lings, he keeps warping in zealots and stalkers so quickly I can't keep up. He kills my spines before my roach count is high enough to prevent it, and it's all downhill from there. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 28 2014 07:44 Frankie Teardrop wrote: You the man John! So even against 1gate FE, if there's no gas at the natural by 6:00 or so, I should start preparing? Good to know. As for that 7 gate 1 gas all in, I have a few more replays agains the same guy where I utilize the advice I learned here, but still fail to hold. I will post them as soon as I get the chance. Basically, he goes nexus > gate > 1 gas > cyber core, then does nothing but add 6 more gateways while warpgate is researching, and completely walls off his natural after he moves out with his probe and zealot. I open pool > hatch > hatch and take double gas at about 5:50 (42 supply). I rush to 2 full base mineral saturation and 6 drones on gas. I throw down a roach warren at 6:30 and skip ling speed for emergency roaches. By 7:00, he is warping in zealots and stalkers 7 at a time near my 3rd base. The way I see it, there's absolutely no way to hold my 3rd against this, unless I start building several spines there before 6:00, which will severely cripple my economy and still might not hold. My roach warren is only halfway done, and no amount of slow lings can fend off 7 gates worth of zealot warpins, even with 3-4 queens supporting them. As he is killing my 3rd (I pulled my queen there back to the natural), I throw down 2-3 spines at my natural and make a round of slow lings while my roach warren is finishing up. From here on out, I produce roaches non-stop, but even with constant roaches, 3 spines, 3 queens, and some slow lings, he keeps warping in zealots and stalkers so quickly I can't keep up. He kills my spines before my roach count is high enough to prevent it, and it's all downhill from there. Ah, there's your problem. I did the same thing too, and I've had problems holding: skip the lings and build a round of drones. If you're going to be defending with roaches, it's much better for you to just have ~45 drones and some extra larva saved up than to have a bunch of useless slow lings at that point. You can always add on lings later if you need them. | ||
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Jowj
United States248 Posts
On July 28 2014 06:58 Alchemik wrote: Where did you see her play like that? I'd like to see it. In person open pool play at MLG :\ I'm not sure if it was broadcasted, it was not on the MainStage. It was pretty interesting  | ||
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Dingodile
4135 Posts
I want to hear a zerg army that can do damage at least. Overrun is not possible anyway. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 28 2014 19:09 Dingodile wrote: How to deal vs Terran air with point defense drone? Zerg doesnt have a unit that can attack air. Fungal is useless because of yamato cannon. I want to hear a zerg army that can do damage at least. Overrun is not possible anyway. In Nation Wars grand finals, Snute (playing vs major on deadwing) used infestors for infested terrans, which seem to ignore PDD. He uses locusts as cover from tanks, then spawns them on top of tanks, so that there is potential for friendly fire from other tanks. Fungal was still very useful to damage/kill the air army, too. Also snute had locusts to attack each other right under 6+ PDDs, which drained the PDD energy very quickly. In combination with active muta harass and vipers, he was able to pull the air army back and forth, slowly breaking down bases and keeping up in efficiency. DRG (in code A? also on deadwing) tried viper-hydra-ultra vs air recently and it didn't end well, but he also (in my opinion) overmade ultras (he went up to 10 at one point), and misplayed a bit. | ||
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pimsc2
France73 Posts
Vipers are essentials. And yes you will need to micro and you can't just "overrun" the terran. | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
On July 28 2014 21:32 6xFPCs wrote: DRG (in code A? also on deadwing) tried viper-hydra-ultra vs air recently and it didn't end well, but he also (in my opinion) overmade ultras (he went up to 10 at one point), and misplayed a bit. It was vs Mvp for the Red Bull BattleGrounds global qualifier #2. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
a) is soO's double upgraded lings build a good opening to get into that composition? It seems to be so with upgrades, but I'm not sure. If so, I guess you'd start infestation pit and 5th/6th gases just when your lair finishes? b) is it actually... good? Silly question, as Solar is a top-tier player, but it sounds very gimmicky and fragile.c) how would it fare against standard in current meta, which is blink stalker/sentry and later colossi? Or against a faster colossi into colossus void ray? d) and the final question, what would be the best addition to that composition to deal with standard Protoss armies? I'd guess queen infestor if stargate-heavy play, right? Thanks in advance! | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5272735 | ||
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Dingodile
4135 Posts
On July 28 2014 21:41 pimsc2 wrote: Infestors has fungle & infested marines which both ignores PDD. Vipers are essentials. And yes you will need to micro and you can't just "overrun" the terran. Micro is not the problem, it is my favorite thing in sc2. without bc, I can "overrun" terran air mostly very easily with mass infestors. yamato cannons makes infestors useless (one hit), dodge not possible. I still dont understand why I need SH against pure Terran air. I think I should build 100000000 lings and try to kill all bases/structures and bc's needs years to kill all lings. seeker missiles is mostly useless against my micro. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 29 2014 00:31 Aelendis wrote: It was vs Mvp for the Red Bull BattleGrounds global qualifier #2. Thanks, good catch. I knew it was korean vs korean but I just couldn't place it. On July 29 2014 08:37 Dingodile wrote: Micro is not the problem, it is my favorite thing in sc2. without bc, I can "overrun" terran air mostly very easily with mass infestors. yamato cannons makes infestors useless (one hit), dodge not possible. I still dont understand why I need SH against pure Terran air. I think I should build 100000000 lings and try to kill all bases/structures and bc's needs years to kill all lings. seeker missiles is mostly useless against my micro. SH is not needed against air, but usually Terran getting to air involves mech first, zerg going SH in response to mech, then terran making ravens in response to SH. That's why we're talking about SH, usually you'll have a core army of SH and he'll have tanks. As the commentator for one of the games I mentioned (i think snute vs major), Day9 was strongly recommending flooding in lings to kill buildings in a SH-muta-viper vs tanks-raven-viking stalemate situation on deadwing when you have a ton of minerals banked (10k+). I think it'd work well, but the problem is that those lings are not "high quality" supply, so your actual fighting strength is diluted. This can be problematic, it might give him enough leeway to kill a base of yours. I'd say lings work best on big maps, where you have a ton of bases anyway and he will have to fly a long way back to kill the lings if he doesn't have any more hellions. And of course, if he does has hellions, then your lings are useless. Better off adding a ton of spores. I personally use hydra viper against larger numbers of BCs, with a few corruptors added in if I can. Viper abduct "stuns" units, so it cancels yamato. And hydras are not really worth using yamato on, so you just have to be careful with the vipers. If you engage on creep, it's also not safe for him to sit still and yamato, as the hydras will get close enough that you can focus down single BCs very fast, especially with corruption. You can trade very reasonably even without vipers if you have creep. Also I think a long time ago in WoL, there was some silly game where someone picked up infestors into overlords when they got targeted by yamato, so the yamato misses. I don't know if this still works, though, or if it is worth using. | ||
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
preferable with more queens or earlyer Baneling nest instead of a roach warrren. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 30 2014 02:45 DERASTAT wrote: Can somebody give me a Build order for ling bling Muta versus terra that works against th enew hellbats pushes?, preferable with more queens or earlyer Baneling nest instead of a roach warrren. It's essentially the old one plus either a baneling nest before upgrades OR an earlier roach warren.
15 hatch 16 pool 15 gas 17 overlord @100% pool, build 2 queens and zerglings x2 @100 gas, start zergling speed and pull 2 drones off gas 26 overlord @100% queens, start continual queen production at the natural until a total of 6 queens 32 overlord 40 overlord **optional swell of lings when speed finishes** @~6:15-6:30, start 3rd hatchery @6:30, put 2 drones back on gas and start 2nd gas @7:00 (150 gas), start double evos + roach warren @100% evos, start +1 melee/+1 carapace @100 gas, build 4 roaches @100 gas, start lair etc. If you want to skip roaches, just go baneling nest ~6:30 before evos and build a swell of lings around 7:30. You can also reverse the order of the upgrades and the roaches if you scout 2-base pressure (AKA no 3rd CC present). | ||
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