EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 189
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Tzyx
Northern Ireland281 Posts
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On July 31 2014 08:23 Tzyx wrote: Gold/Plat zerg here, just come back after a break. Have a question about ZvP on nimbus. I normally open with roaches, try and play aggressive.. on nimbus i face alot of protoss who hole up on two bases behind that annoying rock ramp and build alot of air units. i don't seem to be able to push the ramp much until i have hydras and some upgrades and have taken a few extra bases so i don't kill myself with the amount of roaches it takes to deal damage up that ramp. What else can i do to harass a protoss doing this? i can deny the third and eventually starve them out, but it feels like there should be something else i could be doing while i tech my hydras up. I can't get lings up that ramp, mutas take all my gas and theres nowhere to spawn a nydus. To be honest if he is going to hold up on two bases like that just take a fourth and drone it up while containing him. It is up to you how you pressure him, but the safest way will be to get Swarmhosts and contain him with him till he feels like he has to try push out. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
if you dont like drone scouting in zvz go for 15 pool 15 hatch 14 overlord and safe larvae until 2:55-3:00. if you dont see early lings by that time make drones. if you do you have 3 larvae when pool finishes and the overlord pops so you can build a queen. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On July 31 2014 12:38 Terence Chill wrote: i dont think drone scouting is worth it. the only way it would make sense is to do it in zvz when you are opting for a hatch first. while you make sure you are not cheesed you go hatch first and blocking his hatch due micro. if you dont like drone scouting in zvz go for 15 pool 15 hatch 14 overlord and safe larvae until 2:55-3:00. if you dont see early lings by that time make drones. if you do you have 3 larvae when pool finishes and the overlord pops so you can build a queen. I never really thought about delaying drone preduction like that... Ive never been too knowledgable on build orders so if that's common forgive me. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On July 31 2014 12:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Hey guys. I'm not here to bitch and whine for once. I just have a few questions about how to hold off and scout more efficiently for early pressure. My mid and late game have improved significantly this season but I still seem to lose to a lot of early attacks. Is it always worth sending a drone scout or would simply learning to overlord scout better do? ZvZ is especially bad because it seems every zerg in gold league just 10 pools or something like that, but I like to play a little more macro/greedy. Any advice on how to not die early on while still getting up an early hatchery or something along those lines is great. Honestly I was feeling just like you were a few days ago. Every Korean I played against cheesed me. I decided 'stuff it' 10 scouted on every single match up. I played under the assumption that if I know what they are doing I can and will crush them. It has worked brilliantly. Honestly, since the new season I have a 88% win rate in zvz! I find it beautiful to be able to know exactly what my opponent is doing. 11/11 all good, early pool. Cannon rush? All good, early pool! Etc. Unless you are in high masters/GM to be honest taking a very slight economical disadvantage to know what your opponent is doing is fine. This is especially poignant at a lower level where people do the most random builds known to man. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
On July 31 2014 14:38 ThePastor wrote: Honestly I was feeling just like you were a few days ago. Every Korean I played against cheesed me. I decided 'stuff it' 10 scouted on every single match up. I played under the assumption that if I know what they are doing I can and will crush them. It has worked brilliantly. Honestly, since the new season I have a 88% win rate in zvz! I find it beautiful to be able to know exactly what my opponent is doing. 11/11 all good, early pool. Cannon rush? All good, early pool! Etc. Unless you are in high masters/GM to be honest taking a very slight economical disadvantage to know what your opponent is doing is fine. This is especially poignant at a lower level where people do the most random builds known to man. Playing around diamond, I would be inclined to see wisdom in these words. However, I wish to play the devil's advocate and ask others what they feel about drone scouting in ZvZ. It has been stated numerous times everywhere across forums that drone scouting isn't worth it, period. So I feel like we have kind of two sides with different takes on the subject. Here is the problem I have with this from a personal point of view: saying one specific strategy is good as long as you are not playing at highest level is a statement that can be considered being true for lots of things, not only drone scouting (from unit comps to playing extra safe, etc.) and in the majority of the cases, the safer approach is better as long as your opponent isn't "better" than you. Still, it seems to me that in order to progress, I need to improve my weaknesses, hence know better when I do need to cut corners and when I don't, as it is these kind of details that just make you better. For example, I play in diamond for a very long time and feel I have reached a ceiling. If I want to reach masters, well it seems fairly reasonable to posit that I should play like masters. And what do masters do? They learn to cut corners, they do stuff that _matter_ in their league and that do not in mine, such as drone scouting. Wouldn't playing overly safe in this way hinder my progress in the same way that playing overly safe in gold (not taking a 3rd early enough, etc.) prevented me to reach plat? The further you climb, the smaller are the things that matter. I must admit I have no answer to the questions. At some times I am just like "f... it, even some pros drone scout in ZvZ sometimes (or they did)à and they still win/won!" and others I'm just telling myself there is no reason to play sub optimally for the sole reason that I didn't have yet the competence I need to hold off early attacks. I talked to a pro recently who told me that basically drone scouting is bad in ZvZ since you can ovie scout what you need and you can hold off everything by going a 14 pool 16 hatch standard opening, and that it does not really puts you that much behind economically in macro games either. Is he right, or am I just shooting myself a bullet in the foot by not scouting unless I am a *high* masters player? I honestly have no idea. What do you guys think about it, and in what leagues do you think such things matter? (matter == have a significant impact on the game). | ||
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nunnner
Canada26 Posts
And a response to the ZvZ drone scout. I open 15 hatch 16 pool most games, if I go gasless and get a two queen ramp block with a spine at the natural it's usually a win with a 2 base roach timing if they go for early lings. I usually drone scout while doing this to be safe. But you've answered your own question above I think, don't drone scout if you want to practice holding early ling builds blind, or pick good overlord paths to see the lings coming earlier. I'm gold/plat though so ya know, grain of salt. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I talked to a pro recently who told me that basically drone scouting is bad in ZvZ since you can ovie scout what you need and you can hold off everything by going a 14 pool 16 hatch standard opening, and that it does not really puts you that much behind economically in macro games either. Yup, this is basically my view on the matter as well. You don't feel safe? Go 14pool 15/16hatch and you should be able to hold everything, for the small cost of a tiny disadvantage against hatch first. You want every advantage in the book? hatch first and obviously don't drone scout. Imo, drone scouting and 14pooling is basically equivalent in terms of how much it "costs" you. Just that the 14pool actually holds your opponents early pool, while the drone scout just confirms it. I guess there is an advantage in drone scouting, in the form of being able to determine your opponent's exact gas timing earlier and on 4p maps to know about hatch first/pool first/cheese. Which all isn't that crucial if you do a pool first (standard) build. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
1) Personally I feel drone scouting gets less important the lower you get in the leagues. The reason, as Djay said, the builds are fucked up and doesn't make sense. Right now I am in plat and drone scouts makes sense and helps, in silver and sometimes even in gold league I felt it was contra productive drone scouting. The reason? They take early gas and standard pool, hmm they are going fast ling speed for aggression or safety. Wrong they are doing an unoptimized build for getting fast lair for roach speed..... 2) I don't understand the point with playing 14 pool and 15 hatch to "stay safe". Sure if your main goal is winning "this game". My opinion however is that you get better by learning to defend from a greedy build, thats how the meta works. Since the release of SC2 everytime the meta has shifted it has shifted towards heavier macro. "Hmm what can I defend against if I go hatch first?" and from there you develop a "safe" hatch first build. "Hmm I wonder if I can defed while going 2 hatch before pool" and from there you develop a rather "safe" 2 hatch before pool build. It also makes you learn to micro better, for a while I did 15 pool everytime against terran due to reapers. Now I do hatch first and my micro and drone control has exploded (thank you SC2John!). Take the greedy build, learn how to scout for allins with ovie placements and how you can defend a 10 pool baneling all in with a hatch first. Your skills will improve, you economical position in everygame that is not a cheese will improve and the games you lose because of 6 pool. Shrug, move on and become a better player in the long run! 3) An early drone scout is quite an investment, its good and it can be worth it but don't trivialize how important the early drones are. A mining drones worth is exponential/TheZov  | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On July 31 2014 23:26 Shuffleblade wrote:2) I don't understand the point with playing 14 pool and 15 hatch to "stay safe". Sure if your main goal is winning "this game". My opinion however is that you get better by learning to defend from a greedy build, thats how the meta works i would agree for zvt and maybe even zvp but we are talking about zvz where 14/15 pool does not really put you behind and is safer against early pool. it is not a deviation from what you would see at pro level like zvt for example where pool first is a gamble and not standard. as for drone scouting the reason i dont like it is because the point is to scout an aggressive timing and the mineral cut from scouting hurts more early on when an early attack hits. and also bc i think its better to just memorize hatch timings. for example one of the reasons 14 14 works so well in low leagues is because the opponent doesnt recognize a ~3:00 hatch is late. so once you understand hatch timings better it becomes a matter of execution. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 01 2014 00:21 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So I guess drone scouting is a bad idea. Is there a good way to learn more about hatch timings and overlord placement/scouting so I can actually see shit coming? I usually don't realize I'm getting all-in'd until I see a shit ton of lings running out of his base and by then it's basically too late Even the best players have trouble with that kind of play. The first requirement for such a zergling allin is to get a reasonably early speed. Someone going gasless with 4queens will obviously not speedling or speedling/baneling allin you. Your main tell is if someone is pooling zerglings and the best way to confirm that is to have your first 2-6zerglings around his base and scout into his base for the time when the first and second injects are finishing. Another way to get a chance to scout these kinds of things is if you have an overlord behind the natural mineral line (which is mapdependend) and watch his saturation. If it doesn't go up, he is about to get aggressive. Though the conclusion exclusively works like I described! A higher saturation can also just mean that he transfered a lot, in the nastiest cases even to fake you into thinking he is droning. Only a low saturation is a tell (because overmining the main is just bad, even if it fakes you out). But it's basically a battle from inject to inject. He can start pooling lings on the first, second, third or even fourth inject, all depending on the actual builds. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
In case my opponent was not early pooling, I thought that drone scouting would still be good by offering me the possibility to "outgreed" them, by 17 pooling and/or taking my gas slightly after they do. BigJ, do you feel there is something wrong with this rationale? | ||
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StickyVibes
United States1 Post
Say I've been droning all game (let's say we're 12 minutes in) and my opponent has done a fantastic job of thwarting every single scouting attempt I've made. I have no idea if he has an army and let's say I'm on three bases, he's on two (i.e. I am doing decently well economically). When can I justifiably stop droning and start making army units playing blind? Or do I just make static defense and continue not making army units until I'm able to scout his army composition/size? | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On August 01 2014 05:10 DjayEl wrote: The main reason I would like to know if my opponent is not early pooling so I can hatch first is not to have this slight, negligible economical lead, but because I feel that earlier creep spread is good to hold such all ins, for exemple by evo blocking the entrance before the lings/banes come in. In case my opponent was not early pooling, I thought that drone scouting would still be good by offering me the possibility to "outgreed" them, by 17 pooling and/or taking my gas slightly after they do. BigJ, do you feel there is something wrong with this rationale? I disagree, the creep from hatch first is only really useful against terran, not at all against zerg. I seriously can't think of a case where the slightly earlier creep spread will make a difference. Evo wall is a decent defense, but not at the early time point where the creep spread of hatch-first vs pool-first will matter. I used to drone scout all the time in ZvZ, including the BW-style approach of "start your pool and gas one drone after him to even out the econ", but I stopped because it simply doesn't get you that much more information than you get from overlords. Even though you don't get the 100% confirmation you can get from drone scouting, you still get enough info that you can make an informed decision. It's not worth the econ hit. Remember though, there aren't single clear tells in ZvZ. If you are suspicious that he's making a ton of units, make a few extra units yourself. Eventually, you'll get experienced enough to be able to infer a lot about what he's doing without a definitive scout. Hell, once I made a wave of lings because the natural was TOO saturated, it looked like (and turned out to be) an (over)transfer from the main to fake me out. But I was suspicious so I had my defense ready. On August 01 2014 05:22 StickyVibes wrote: Something I've never really seen addressed: Say I've been droning all game (let's say we're 12 minutes in) and my opponent has done a fantastic job of thwarting every single scouting attempt I've made. I have no idea if he has an army and let's say I'm on three bases, he's on two (i.e. I am doing decently well economically). When can I justifiably stop droning and start making army units playing blind? Or do I just make static defense and continue not making army units until I'm able to scout his army composition/size? This is ZvP? There should be no way for him to stop all your scouting, at that point you should be able to get overseers into his base, or just check the front with speedlings. If you really have zero info, however, I would stop on 4 gas, and 16-drone saturation on all three bases (this is what I would consider a "safe" range of greedy), and make units (roach ling is a decent middle-of-the-road choice) until you see him take a third or move out. Keep trying to scout, especially watch for when he tries to move out, since this will tell you his army comp, in addition to signaling for you to make units. Personally, I would also start a fourth base after the first round or two of units. You will want the extra production capability even if you don't drone it up, and if he does take a third, you are able to keep up in econ without a hitch. And if he moves out, you can cancel if you are desperate for minerals. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 31 2014 23:26 Shuffleblade wrote: 2) I don't understand the point with playing 14 pool and 15 hatch to "stay safe". Sure if your main goal is winning "this game". My opinion however is that you get better by learning to defend from a greedy build, thats how the meta works. Since the release of SC2 everytime the meta has shifted it has shifted towards heavier macro. "Hmm what can I defend against if I go hatch first?" and from there you develop a "safe" hatch first build. "Hmm I wonder if I can defed while going 2 hatch before pool" and from there you develop a rather "safe" 2 hatch before pool build. It also makes you learn to micro better, for a while I did 15 pool everytime against terran due to reapers. Now I do hatch first and my micro and drone control has exploded (thank you SC2John!). Take the greedy build, learn how to scout for allins with ovie placements and how you can defend a 10 pool baneling all in with a hatch first. Your skills will improve, you economical position in everygame that is not a cheese will improve and the games you lose because of 6 pool. Shrug, move on and become a better player in the long run! There is a lot of nuance and context that you are missing by defaulting to hatch first using your "learning" mentality. Early pools are not viable in ZvT, for example, and there is nothing to really punish hatch first either, so hatch first is the default in ZvT. In ZvZ, early pools are an ever-present possibility, especially on ladder (sometimes I get 4+ zvz in a row, you better believe that I am thinking of 6pooling at that point). It isn't about "learning to defend", it's not something you can expect to normally micro your way out of because it's such a huge disadvantage. Reapers, you can micro well and take zero losses, and if you don't micro well you take some damage. Early pools, you can micro well and still take a lot of damage, and if you don't micro well you simply lose. There is a world of difference. Certainly there is some learning to be done, but I really don't think your model applies here. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 01 2014 05:22 StickyVibes wrote: Something I've never really seen addressed: Say I've been droning all game (let's say we're 12 minutes in) and my opponent has done a fantastic job of thwarting every single scouting attempt I've made. I have no idea if he has an army and let's say I'm on three bases, he's on two (i.e. I am doing decently well economically). When can I justifiably stop droning and start making army units playing blind? Or do I just make static defense and continue not making army units until I'm able to scout his army composition/size? Just overseer scout every game in every matchup, and you'll never be playing in the dark. If you can't get any information between overlords, ling pokes, or overseer scout, you're doing something wrong. In general, though, you should be fully saturated on 3-3.5 bases by 12 minutes every game, so obviously, you would start making units then. On August 01 2014 06:17 6xFPCs wrote: There is a lot of nuance and context that you are missing by defaulting to hatch first using your "learning" mentality. Early pools are not viable in ZvT, for example, and there is nothing to really punish hatch first either, so hatch first is the default in ZvT. In ZvZ, early pools are an ever-present possibility, especially on ladder (sometimes I get 4+ zvz in a row, you better believe that I am thinking of 6pooling at that point). It isn't about "learning to defend", it's not something you can expect to normally micro your way out of because it's such a huge disadvantage. Reapers, you can micro well and take zero losses, and if you don't micro well you take some damage. Early pools, you can micro well and still take a lot of damage, and if you don't micro well you simply lose. There is a world of difference. Certainly there is some learning to be done, but I really don't think your model applies here. Be careful what you're saying there. Pool first has been used in ZvT quite a bit in recent times, and it's main purpose is to prevent proxy reaper or proxy 11/11 on maps that are harder to scout well on. Habitation Station and Heavy Rain were the biggest ones in Season 1, and occasionally we see this on Overgrowth and King Sejong Station now (as well as Outboxer in PL). As far as hatch first versus pool first in ZvZ, my opinion is that it simply does not matter below masters. Below masters, you should really just be going hatch first or early pool in every ZvZ and just accepting some of the losses that come as a build order loss. (Sidenote: if you scout fast gas from your opponent and you go hatch -> gas -> pool, you need to get baneling nest first before speed, I don't know if this has actually been addressed in this line of posts). Only once you get comfortable with playing the game as a whole should you really be moving on to using "safe" or unoptimized versions of builds. However, to be honest, with good micro and instant decision making, you can definitely defend MOST things with hatch first if you have proper scouting and good information. In my experience, the only really good place to consistently go pool first on is 3-player maps, where you have a 50% chance of scouting your opponent first (or not, which is the bigger deal). 4-player maps are generally too big to allow early pools to completely break a standard hatch first build, and 2-player maps make it possible for you to scout the aggression much earlier and prepare. Beyond using it on 3-player maps, though, for the purpose of learning and getting better, I suggest always going either hatch first or some kind of aggressive early pool. Anything else is just kind of unnecessarily crippling yourself against players who play "normal". On July 31 2014 21:09 DjayEl wrote: However, I wish to play the devil's advocate and ask others what they feel about drone scouting in ZvZ. It has been stated numerous times everywhere across forums that drone scouting isn't worth it, period. So I feel like we have kind of two sides with different takes on the subject. Here is the problem I have with this from a personal point of view: saying one specific strategy is good as long as you are not playing at highest level is a statement that can be considered being true for lots of things, not only drone scouting (from unit comps to playing extra safe, etc.) and in the majority of the cases, the safer approach is better as long as your opponent isn't "better" than you. Is he right, or am I just shooting myself a bullet in the foot by not scouting unless I am a *high* masters player? I honestly have no idea. What do you guys think about it, and in what leagues do you think such things matter? (matter == have a significant impact on the game). On drone scouting in ZvZ: I generally think this is bad, but if you KNOW your opponent is going hatch first on a 2-player map, drone scouting and going hatch first will pull your ahead economically because you can block the hatchery from going down. Versus anything else, drone scouting is pretty bad. Naturally, this doesn't really make it viable for ladder purposes. Like anything else sub-optimal, it's a risk that assumes that you'll get ahead versus hatch first and behind versus pool first or early pools, and pro players have learned to live with that risk in these important matches, where even the slightest edge, such as getting ahead of your opponent in a hatch first opening, can bring you good results. On August 01 2014 02:36 Big J wrote: But it's basically a battle from inject to inject. He can start pooling lings on the first, second, third or even fourth inject, all depending on the actual builds. Also, this is the truest thing ever said. Just make sure you have proper timings on your build and getting either safety banes or queens/walls up in time to deal with these pressures and keep an eye on the minimap and you'll be fine. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 01 2014 05:10 DjayEl wrote: The main reason I would like to know if my opponent is not early pooling so I can hatch first is not to have this slight, negligible economical lead, but because I feel that earlier creep spread is good to hold such all ins, for exemple by evo blocking the entrance before the lings/banes come in. In case my opponent was not early pooling, I thought that drone scouting would still be good by offering me the possibility to "outgreed" them, by 17 pooling and/or taking my gas slightly after they do. BigJ, do you feel there is something wrong with this rationale? I think drone scouting ZvZ and reacting like you describe it is one of those things that, if you are comfortable doing it, just do it. There is no real harm done from it, maybe apart from forcing you into certain builds. | ||
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Tomma
Norway2 Posts
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