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On June 09 2014 07:05 Veriol wrote:
Hey, Ive been playing sc2 since it came out and slowly worked my way to highish master where Ive been stuck for most of the past 3years. I havent played much and didnt try hard enough.
Starting this year I told myself I will play as much as possible and become at least GM by the end of the year. In past half year I played around 3k games (wich is around 1/5th of my total games over the 4years) and im still "stuck" I feel I improved but very little or not to a degree where I can see myself beat better players or at least confidently beat "lesser" players at local scene. Any tips on how to overcome this "skill plateau"? Or how to improve more efficiently?
Lately Ive reserved myself to one macro build and one cheese per matchup (copying the popular builds among progamers) to really minmax those and focus on steadily getting better at those. Im also trying to look at way more VODs to catch the "smart plays" or decision making.
not to crush your hopes or anything, but if u aren't naturally GM material, you probably wont make it. Most people that are in top 100 GM got to GM in less than 5 seasons because they are just naturally better. I myself got to rank 6-12 masters in 2 seasons, and now stuck there for like 10 seasons. i try my best cant improve.
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On June 09 2014 07:38 WGT-Baal wrote:Ok guys, I really need your help. I usually do not have a lot of problem in ZvP. Sometimes I lose to cheese, but it s mostly my own mistakes. But there is a build I ve been facing twice today and got completely dismantled(Diamond EU). The first one, I failed to scout properly so I won't show the replay but the second one was painful. The guy basically went 3 stargate into airtoss and totally rocked me... Here s the replay : ZvP OvergrowthWhat composition should I get? Any help with the mistakes I made is also greatly appreciated (I am trying to improve). EDIT: a link to a VOD of a Zerg holding this would be paramount!
check out day9s daily on soulkeys gsl run. then find the game vs sOs on king sejong station. exactly what ur looking for.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 09 2014 07:05 Veriol wrote:
Hey, Ive been playing sc2 since it came out and slowly worked my way to highish master where Ive been stuck for most of the past 3years. I havent played much and didnt try hard enough.
Starting this year I told myself I will play as much as possible and become at least GM by the end of the year. In past half year I played around 3k games (wich is around 1/5th of my total games over the 4years) and im still "stuck" I feel I improved but very little or not to a degree where I can see myself beat better players or at least confidently beat "lesser" players at local scene. Any tips on how to overcome this "skill plateau"? Or how to improve more efficiently?
Lately Ive reserved myself to one macro build and one cheese per matchup (copying the popular builds among progamers) to really minmax those and focus on steadily getting better at those. Im also trying to look at way more VODs to catch the "smart plays" or decision making.
I'm not a GM, but I spent a large portion of my life playing piano and learning how to improve and practice efficiently, so let me explain some good practice techniques and ways to improve. First of all, take a look at this post I wrote a few pages back:
On April 12 2014 02:22 SC2John wrote:In order of importance: 1) Mechanics practice. It's really good to do a multi-tasking or micro trainer to warm up every practice session; I personally like Dargelein's Multitasking Trainer and the Creep Spread/Inject map. Spending 10-20 minutes on this every time before you play will significantly improve your general mechanics. Write down a list of mechanics that you want to work on (i.e. minimap awareness, mouse accuracy, spending money, never missing injects, etc.) and focus on ONE of those things each practice session. If your goal is to increase your minimap awareness, that should be forefront on your mind, even if it causes your macro to slip a little bit; over time, each area will improve as a whole and you'll be able to do everything together a lot easier. Overall, this is the biggest area to improve on and will bring you the fastest results. 2) Game Plan. You need to have a game plan in your matches. It's very common for players to just drill mechanics and YOLO their build order and strategy and then hit a brick wall in diamond/masters where their mechanics just aren't good enough. You want to actively be planning your next step every game. For instance, in ZvP my game plan is to take 3 hatcheries, tech up to lair, play an aggressive ling/hydra mid game trading as often as possible while taking a 4th and 5th and teching to hive, get ultras/vipers to deny the Protoss from comfortably taking a 4th, and add on BLords for a final push. Within that, I have very specific scouting patterns, building placements, and army movements specific to each map. Note that your game plan doesn't have to be THAT comprehensive, but it's something you should aim for. 3) Replay Analysis. Look at every replay. It's a really hard habit to get into, but it will help you improve significantly. When watching replays, you want to note things like 1) important timings for both you and your opponent, 2) whether your mechanics focus area was on track and ways you can fix that, 3) and always be LOOKING for questions. It's really easy to play a game and think something like, "Oh, I just micro'd really bad there," but you need to force yourself to ask questions. Here are some external links that are very helpful: How To Plan A StrategyPlaying to Win vs. Playing to ImproveA Focused Approach to Perfecting MechanicsAnalyzing ReplaysHow To Win Using ETA ConceptI highly recommend sticky notes! I used to have a full wall of sticky notes posted around my monitor with things like my mechanics list, build orders, general game plans, scout timings, etc. They work excellently as quick reminders and allow you quick reference when you feel lost or confused in a game. Good luck!
As Day9 has said before: it's better to drill deep than drill wide. I honestly think it's very very important for players to get a good sense of a) a general framework skeleton of a game plan and ALL of the possible divergent points and b) ALL of the possible kill triggers and scouting tells. To be honest, what I end up seeing a lot of players, even masters and GMs, doing is doing a huge selection of builds with no general direction OR doing the same strategy over and over and hitting a brick wall. When you start to really focus on your game play, you want to get into the habit of studying specific triggers within strategies. For instance, if your game plan is to go muta/corruptor in the mid game (ZvP) and you scout your opponent opening with phoenixes, you have a specific response already prepared. However, if you can break it down into even more detail, such as creating a response based on the specific number of phoenixes, whether there's a 4-gate follow-up or a colossus follow-up, where his units are positioned, map specific responses, etc., etc., then you end up into far more detail than you had originally. As a result, your game plan tends to shift more drastically based on your scouting and responses; naturally, this also increases the range of your strategies without creating that "unfocused environment" of just trying a bunch of unrelated things.
MC is known as like "The Master of 2-base All-ins", but it's not because he just has stellar micro or he just hits the same amazing timing every game (that's PartinG :p). It's because he has a really intricate series of plans and responses set up in the game before 10:00 and he KNOWS when he can do an attack and it'll work. Obviously, he might not be a player you study, but it's important to note that he has something like 10 variations planned out for a single all-in and everything, including his unit movement on the map and his specific timings, are tailored to the player based on the map and responses he's made from scouting.
In short, this game is amazingly and infinitely complicated. You may have reached a point where things feel like black and white (THIS is good, THIS is bad, THIS is something you shouldn't do on 2 bases, THIS is something that's only good on 3 bases, etc., etc.), but you really need to drill deep and recognize the complexity of every single movement and timing and response and tailor your build to beat your opponent rather than just blindly throwing out builds and hoping you can brute force your way through it or get lucky.
I hope this gives some insight! Don't listen to the guy who says you won't make GM! Nathanias just got GM after a long long time; all it takes is a lot of hard work and dedication as well as some focused practice, and you'll get there eventually. 
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On June 09 2014 08:42 mooseman1710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2014 07:38 WGT-Baal wrote:Ok guys, I really need your help. I usually do not have a lot of problem in ZvP. Sometimes I lose to cheese, but it s mostly my own mistakes. But there is a build I ve been facing twice today and got completely dismantled(Diamond EU). The first one, I failed to scout properly so I won't show the replay but the second one was painful. The guy basically went 3 stargate into airtoss and totally rocked me... Here s the replay : ZvP OvergrowthWhat composition should I get? Any help with the mistakes I made is also greatly appreciated (I am trying to improve). EDIT: a link to a VOD of a Zerg holding this would be paramount! check out day9s daily on soulkeys gsl run. then find the game vs sOs on king sejong station. exactly what ur looking for.
thank you! I ll go and watch it!
edit: Ok I found it and watched it and it was really helpful. I ll try and watch more of Soulkey's play as I like his style. Thanks a million again!
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Hey John, thanks for quick and thorough reply I knew why to post here ^^). Ill be sure to check all the threads you linked thanks alot!
Also what you said about build orders and mini details - yeah I feel that was(is) the biggest setback in my game atm. I did plethora of builds all kinds of stuff I saw or even made up myself and I think that hindered me in long run.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
John pls come to the Terran Help Me Thread with this knowledge ;_;
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On June 05 2014 18:22 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 17:37 Anacreor wrote:On June 05 2014 01:09 chairmobile wrote:On June 04 2014 11:19 ThePastor wrote:
The other night on GSL tastosis seemed quite confused during a ZvZ. I can't remember the match up but I think it had soO.
One zerg (soO I think) went gas first. Upon scouting the other zerg going gasless he did not take speed but just left the 100 gas sitting in his bank, skipped speed and went for a lair a bit later on. Now tastosis was unsure whether it was a mistake or not.
My question is one of clarification; in my opinion it was simply soO reacting to a gasless build, deciding to not get speed as it isn't necessary and go heavy drone production instead. Is this the case or have I analysed this incorrectly and was something else going on? It was poor attention by the casters. He actually started speed and then cancelled it upon seeing macro play out of his opponent, opting instead to use the gas for faster upgrades/lair later on and use the minerals for drones for the time being. Your analysis (I believe) is exactly correct. That's indeed what happened. It was TRUE by the way, not soO.  On June 05 2014 00:50 EXRNaRa wrote:
So i don´t have a question just for Zerg. If i watch streams and for exapmle in ZvZ a 10P Bane.
The player who gets attacked splits all his drones so the Banes do not connect and than he just selects ALL idle workers at once and gets them back to work.
How do you do that?
The idle worker key is just for one worker. There is no 'select all idle workers' button. The only thing that is happening is (as mentioned already) the ctrl+click worker, so that you select all workers on screen. There is in fact a way to select all idle workers. I rebound mine back in WoL so I can't remember what the default button is. Is it ~? Either way pressing the idle worker hotkey cycles through, if you push CTRL + idle worker hotkey you select them all!
Clicking the icon on the left does it.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 10 2014 06:59 mau5mat wrote:
John pls come to the Terran Help Me Thread with this knowledge ;_;
You don't want me giving Terran advice, trust me hahahaha. My Protoss and Zerg are like borderline Diamond/Masters, but my Terran is like gold league, straight up.
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so what are the hellbat builds that have emerged so far? i don't ladder a ton right now so i'm not sure if i'm familiar with all the variations or how they work yet from a player perspective
the ones i know of are:
-straight up hellion into transformation just to blitzkrieg the third and get out
-marineking's hellbat timing + stimmed bio/hellion rally which crushed hyvaa
-the fast medivac build major used against scarlett in redbull qualifiers (i think casters said it was a flash build?)
-hellbat/marine/cloak banshee push maru just used unsuccessfully against effort
-i've also seen some bizarre stuff on ladder with like hellbat/widow mine but it was awful and not worth mentioning
anyone have general notes on these builds or more to mention?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 10 2014 21:13 Waise wrote:
so what are the hellbat builds that have emerged so far? i don't ladder a ton right now so i'm not sure if i'm familiar with all the variations or how they work yet from a player perspective
the ones i know of are:
-straight up hellion into transformation just to blitzkrieg the third and get out
-marineking's hellbat timing + stimmed bio/hellion rally which crushed hyvaa
-the fast medivac build major used against scarlett in redbull qualifiers (i think casters said it was a flash build?)
-hellbat/marine/cloak banshee push maru just used unsuccessfully against effort
-i've also seen some bizarre stuff on ladder with like hellbat/widow mine but it was awful and not worth mentioning
anyone have general notes on these builds or more to mention?
Looking at it, trying to figure out good ways to counter it. Best idea I've come up with so far is to scout at 6:00 (as always) to check for 3rd CC vs. extra rax AND check the ramp for add-ons. Pretty much all of these builds include a second reactor, so if you see two reactors, go ahead and throw down a roach warren or baneling nest preemptively and delay your upgrades a little bit.
As far as the builds that look a little more standard like the marine/hellbat/medivac poke at 10:30 or later timings, you should be able to hold at that point as long as you're not too greedy with your gas (getting upgrades, burrow, overlord speed, etc., etc.). Not sure about the blitzkrieg 3rd build though...I THINK you should be able to hold it as long as your get a swell of lings or roaches at the right time.
Anyways, those are my main thoughts. The biggest issue, I think, is with the all-ins, but those are mostly scoutable due to the very common double reactor tell.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On June 10 2014 21:13 Waise wrote:
so what are the hellbat builds that have emerged so far? i don't ladder a ton right now so i'm not sure if i'm familiar with all the variations or how they work yet from a player perspective
the ones i know of are:
-straight up hellion into transformation just to blitzkrieg the third and get out
-marineking's hellbat timing + stimmed bio/hellion rally which crushed hyvaa
-the fast medivac build major used against scarlett in redbull qualifiers (i think casters said it was a flash build?)
-hellbat/marine/cloak banshee push maru just used unsuccessfully against effort
-i've also seen some bizarre stuff on ladder with like hellbat/widow mine but it was awful and not worth mentioning
anyone have general notes on these builds or more to mention?
I'm a Terran player myself, but you might want to check out Maru vs EffOrt from today's Proleague to see how to hold Hellbat-type timings.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 11 2014 01:55 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 21:13 Waise wrote:
so what are the hellbat builds that have emerged so far? i don't ladder a ton right now so i'm not sure if i'm familiar with all the variations or how they work yet from a player perspective
the ones i know of are:
-straight up hellion into transformation just to blitzkrieg the third and get out
-marineking's hellbat timing + stimmed bio/hellion rally which crushed hyvaa
-the fast medivac build major used against scarlett in redbull qualifiers (i think casters said it was a flash build?)
-hellbat/marine/cloak banshee push maru just used unsuccessfully against effort
-i've also seen some bizarre stuff on ladder with like hellbat/widow mine but it was awful and not worth mentioning
anyone have general notes on these builds or more to mention? I'm a Terran player myself, but you might want to check out Maru vs EffOrt from today's Proleague to see how to hold Hellbat-type timings.
DONE! You're all quite welcome!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/458776-sc2-notes-efforts-anti-hellbat-build-zvt
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Canada8159 Posts
On June 10 2014 21:13 Waise wrote:
so what are the hellbat builds that have emerged so far? i don't ladder a ton right now so i'm not sure if i'm familiar with all the variations or how they work yet from a player perspective
the ones i know of are:
-straight up hellion into transformation just to blitzkrieg the third and get out
-marineking's hellbat timing + stimmed bio/hellion rally which crushed hyvaa
-the fast medivac build major used against scarlett in redbull qualifiers (i think casters said it was a flash build?)
-hellbat/marine/cloak banshee push maru just used unsuccessfully against effort
-i've also seen some bizarre stuff on ladder with like hellbat/widow mine but it was awful and not worth mentioning
anyone have general notes on these builds or more to mention?
a complete list will be available soon+ Show Spoiler +
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I haven't played in a long long time, and I would like to know if there is any specific build order that you guys would recommend to catch up back into mechanics and stuff. That is, if the ones in the OP aren't outdated or something like that, also if there are any custom maps that are recommended for training! Thanks in advance
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United States4883 Posts
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Probably a stupid question, but I've been wondering this quite a long time - what's the best response to gateway expand or forge fast expand?
I mean, I know that with nexus first, you can go for 3 hatch before pool, but what about ffe and gateway? Delaying the third, adding the gas?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 12 2014 05:24 Alchemik wrote:
Probably a stupid question, but I've been wondering this quite a long time - what's the best response to gateway expand or forge fast expand?
I mean, I know that with nexus first, you can go for 3 hatch before pool, but what about ffe and gateway? Delaying the third, adding the gas?
The timings should really be divided up into FFE/nexus first vs. gateway expand. Against FFE, you're going to do pretty much all of the same things whether it's forge first or nexus first, but you have to be careful as to the degree of risk that you're taking. Generally speaking, triple hatch before pool is a bad build vs FFE because it can be cannoned even if they go nexus first. For gateway expands, the general response is to just do everything the same as vs. FFE but take an early gas for earlier ling speed; you CAN delay the third if you want to, but it should work out fine either way.
In terms of scouting between 5:00-10:00, nothing changes much other than all of your timings are moved a minute earlier with gateway expands (i.e., your normal overlord sac @7:00 vs FFE should be done @6:00 vs gateway expand, and warpgate attacks hit around 7:00 instead of 8:00).
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^answered better, editing out
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United States248 Posts
On June 12 2014 05:31 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 05:24 Alchemik wrote:
Probably a stupid question, but I've been wondering this quite a long time - what's the best response to gateway expand or forge fast expand?
I mean, I know that with nexus first, you can go for 3 hatch before pool, but what about ffe and gateway? Delaying the third, adding the gas? The timings should really be divided up into FFE/nexus first vs. gateway expand. Against FFE, you're going to do pretty much all of the same things whether it's forge first or nexus first, but you have to be careful as to the degree of risk that you're taking. Generally speaking, triple hatch before pool is a bad build vs FFE because it can be cannoned even if they go nexus first. For gateway expands, the general response is to just do everything the same as vs. FFE but take an early gas for earlier ling speed; you CAN delay the third if you want to, but it should work out fine either way. In terms of scouting between 5:00-10:00, nothing changes much other than all of your timings are moved a minute earlier with gateway expands (i.e., your normal overlord sac @7:00 vs FFE should be done @6:00 vs gateway expand, and warpgate attacks hit around 7:00 instead of 8:00).
As a follow up to this, I recommend going up to 5-6 queens before taking a 6/6:30 3rd, sort of like a typical ZvT build if you find yourself pool first vs a gateway expand. This rounds out your defense nicely and generates bunches of creep spread for you. Several pros use this a mix in build with their more typical greed (JD/Scarlett in particular are who I'm remembering having done this)
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EPT
