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The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 172
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MajorBiscuit
83 Posts
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501TFX
Austria345 Posts
Any neat cheeses or gimmicky plays that are playable as Zerg? I'm on diamond - masters level btw. | ||
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goofy5507
Belgium55 Posts
The way I see it is: 1) he makes banelings from his zerglings (duh) 2) he does ctrl all his his baneling then shift 1 to add/create the control 1 with banelings And then i dont really know 3a) I tried this myself but if u control all your lings shift 2 (or even ctrl lings ctrl 2) all your lings then you lose the lings that you are making at hatcheries from that ctrl group so I dont think that's it 3b) I also tried shift clicking all my banes from the ctrl group 2 and then pressing ctrl 2 => so i create new control group 2 with only lings + hatching lings but this seems to slow and destiny seems to have a faster way of doing it. Can somebody help me? For reference i am diamond Z player and I think this could really help especially in ZvZ where having a fast technique to split your lings and banelings into 2 groups is really useful. Ps. As u can see I know there are other ways of doing this but I would really like to know the way destiny (and mb other pros) do this. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 02 2014 02:07 501TFX wrote: To maybe ask something not as standard, I just started playing again after a long-ish time (about half a year) and I'm quite comfortable in playing the current metagame already. Before the break I kinda fell into this "standard and nothing but standard!" role that I personally don't really want to get in again. Nothing against standard play, but to be honest I want to fuck around a little bit ;P Any neat cheeses or gimmicky plays that are playable as Zerg? I'm on diamond - masters level btw. Here are some that I use. Asterisks indicate "cheesy" builds. ZvP: • *Hatch-cancel roach all-in: (mainly for use against a greedy nexus first) pool first, start natural hatch, double gas with 2 workers each (start denying scouting with queen at ramp plus 2 lings), roach warren, cancel natural hatch, into 8 roaches. • 2-2 roach-hydra timing • Hydra-ling timing, to punish any non-colossus, fast third build ZvT: (mainly against the current reaper-hellion openings) • *8 roach push off two hatches (just keep mining gas after ling speed starts, take third behind roach push) • *1-1 roach timing (hyun's trademark) ZvZ: • *ling flood: hatch first. double queen, stop mining gas after 100, all larvae after 16 drones into lings. often kills pool-first players because of the larvae advantage from hatch first. • *10 pool speed • *10 pool bane (i'm horrible with all 10p builds so I won't comment on how to do those) The first listed build in each matchup are my go-to builds for when I'm laddering and I just don't want to play that matchup for the fifth time in a row. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 02 2014 07:18 goofy5507 wrote: This isnt really strategy question but it is Zerg related. It concerns controlling ling bling in control groups and more specifically the way destiny does it. On his stream he makes every zergling from hatch into control group 2 i think (doesnt really matter) (and i know how this works with the control + shift mechanic). But when he makes banelings from his zergling group I cant really figure out how he eventually gets them into 2 separate control groups. I think baneling ctrl group 1 zergling ctrl group 2. The way I see it is: 1) he makes banelings from his zerglings (duh) 2) he does ctrl all his his baneling then shift 1 to add/create the control 1 with banelings And then i dont really know 3a) I tried this myself but if u control all your lings shift 2 (or even ctrl lings ctrl 2) all your lings then you lose the lings that you are making at hatcheries from that ctrl group so I dont think that's it 3b) I also tried shift clicking all my banes from the ctrl group 2 and then pressing ctrl 2 => so i create new control group 2 with only lings + hatching lings but this seems to slow and destiny seems to have a faster way of doing it. Can somebody help me? For reference i am diamond Z player and I think this could really help especially in ZvZ where having a fast technique to split your lings and banelings into 2 groups is really useful. Ps. As u can see I know there are other ways of doing this but I would really like to know the way destiny (and mb other pros) do this. You can control+shift to remove a set of units from your selection. So he might morph banes, select only banes, hotkey banes; then select group 2, control+shift to deselect banes, then rehotkey everything that remains (lings plus eggs) to group 2. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On June 02 2014 07:39 6xFPCs wrote: You can control+shift to remove a set of units from your selection. So he might morph banes, select only banes, hotkey banes; then select group 2, control+shift to deselect banes, then rehotkey everything that remains (lings plus eggs) to group 2. Thats exactly what he said in 3b, but he said Destiny's method seems faster than that | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 03 2014 02:45 Survivor61316 wrote: Thats exactly what he said in 3b, but he said Destiny's method seems faster than that No, what I suggested is almost certainly not the same as 3b. He said that he shift-clicks the banes, which strongly implies that he shift-clicks them individually to deselect them, as opposed to a single control-shift-click. That, I think, is why he says 3b is slow. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 02 2014 07:39 6xFPCs wrote: You can control+shift to remove a set of units from your selection. So he might morph banes, select only banes, hotkey banes; then select group 2, control+shift to deselect banes, then rehotkey everything that remains (lings plus eggs) to group 2. Basically, yes, this is the correct way to do it. For morphing banelings, make sure you don't reselect the group before shit+clicking because that causes the morphing banelings to drop down to the lowest priority in the selection window (which can be a problem if you have 30 lings ahead of it). The full version of this is:
2) Shift+ctrl+click the baneling eggs in the selection box in the bottom of your screen 3) Rebind your ling hotkey without banes 4) Double-click or Ctrl+click your morphing banelings 5) Hotkey banelings to a separate group In theory, it seems like a lot of actions, but after you get good at it, you can do all of this in less than 5 seconds. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 02 2014 02:07 501TFX wrote: To maybe ask something not as standard, I just started playing again after a long-ish time (about half a year) and I'm quite comfortable in playing the current metagame already. Before the break I kinda fell into this "standard and nothing but standard!" role that I personally don't really want to get in again. Nothing against standard play, but to be honest I want to fuck around a little bit ;P Any neat cheeses or gimmicky plays that are playable as Zerg? I'm on diamond - masters level btw. Triple hatch before pool into baneling bust is fairly decent. You get one queen total and ~24 drones total, then just pump mass lings. It hits around 6:10-6:15, just before warp gate is done and quite often catches the MSC out of position (because Protoss is trying to be clever and do some kind of warpgate timing). Really good build for large maps like Frost, long spawns Waystation, or even Alterzim. | ||
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goofy5507
Belgium55 Posts
On June 03 2014 04:34 6xFPCs wrote: No, what I suggested is almost certainly not the same as 3b. He said that he shift-clicks the banes, which strongly implies that he shift-clicks them individually to deselect them, as opposed to a single control-shift-click. That, I think, is why he says 3b is slow. yep thats it I think. Thanks! | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
15 hatch 16 pool 17 gas 2 queens when pool is done @100 gas-> ling speed->take 2 off gas @queens pop-> make 3rd queen at nat @6:00-> take 3rd @100% ling speed-> put drones back on gas-> take 2nd gas-> make 2 evo chambers-> make about 16 lings (8 pairs) At around this time is when Hellions come knocking at my front or even a bit later to get more Hellions. My lings aren't enough to take on this many Hellions even on creep. Trying to get a full surround is difficult because that's kind of hoping the Terran doesn't move away. And this is becoming more common now that the Hellion Servos upgrade has been removed. So my question is when should I add in a RW? I feel like roaches is the only way for me at this point and I can threaten an all-in if need be. I was thinking of replacing my 3rd queen for it and get it a bit later but I won't have good creep spread. Or should I go 4 queen gasless opener? If that's the case, what is the proper BO for it? I ahven't done that build in a while and I wasn't all that great with that BO to begin with. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 03 2014 10:16 learning88 wrote: Hey everyone. I'm a platinum player and I've been having trouble in ZvT where the Terran goes Hellion-heavy after the initial Reaper harrass, maybe about 6-8 hellions. My BO is: 15 hatch 16 pool 17 gas 2 queens when pool is done @100 gas-> ling speed->take 2 off gas @queens pop-> make 3rd queen at nat @6:00-> take 3rd @100% ling speed-> put drones back on gas-> take 2nd gas-> make 2 evo chambers-> make about 16 lings (8 pairs) At around this time is when Hellions come knocking at my front or even a bit later to get more Hellions. My lings aren't enough to take on this many Hellions even on creep. Trying to get a full surround is difficult because that's kind of hoping the Terran doesn't move away. And this is becoming more common now that the Hellion Servos upgrade has been removed. So my question is when should I add in a RW? I feel like roaches is the only way for me at this point and I can threaten an all-in if need be. I was thinking of replacing my 3rd queen for it and get it a bit later but I won't have good creep spread. Or should I go 4 queen gasless opener? If that's the case, what is the proper BO for it? I ahven't done that build in a while and I wasn't all that great with that BO to begin with. The standard build order that Jaedong does starts off this way and continues building queens one by one at the natural until 6 queens. If you're not doing that already, start doing it! This will allow you to use 2-3 queens to zone out the hellions when they get there. Obviously, in order to afford this, you need gas a little bit later; the standard marker is 100 gas after you pull drones off of gas. Other than that, your build order looks pretty good. It's a pretty solid standard one; you're just rushing the gas a little and not getting the queen count that you need. To deal with the bigger hellion pushes later on, you want to defend with EITHER roaches or lings/queen/spine; either way, once you get up to the queen count that you want, you'll have excess minerals that you can spend on a roach warren OR a spine crawler. Hope this helps! | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On June 03 2014 11:17 SC2John wrote: The standard build order that Jaedong does starts off this way and continues building queens one by one at the natural until 6 queens. If you're not doing that already, start doing it! This will allow you to use 2-3 queens to zone out the hellions when they get there. Obviously, in order to afford this, you need gas a little bit later; the standard marker is 100 gas after you pull drones off of gas. Other than that, your build order looks pretty good. It's a pretty solid standard one; you're just rushing the gas a little and not getting the queen count that you need. To deal with the bigger hellion pushes later on, you want to defend with EITHER roaches or lings/queen/spine; either way, once you get up to the queen count that you want, you'll have excess minerals that you can spend on a roach warren OR a spine crawler. Hope this helps! Another way, when you suspect the terran to go reapers to hellions, you can be certain enough he won't have marines out for a while. So you can put an ovi or 2 ahead of your creep so that the tumors don't die easily. It recquire good map awareness though. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 03 2014 11:36 learning88 wrote: Thank you SC2John for the help. So I should just take all drones off gas, keep making Queens at nat, then once ling speed finishes, I can take 2nd gas, put drones back on gas, and start double evo? Can I still take a 6:00 3rd? You can keep a drone on gas until ~100 gas has been accumulated and then put the other two back on gas (+ take second geyser + evos). Or you can probably just do what you're suggesting and that should still work out economically, although you need to delay your evos until ~100 gas or you'll have them way too early. You still get to start your third at 6:15-6:30. You kind of definitely NEED to start it in that time window because once the hellions are out it becomes substantially harder to take a third base if it isn't already building. Also, what the guy above me said. Against hellion/reaper, it's really good to spread your overlords to cover all the main pathways and get vision of the reaper/hellion movement. Then around 9:30-10:00, you generally move them to safer locations as marine pushes start to happen. This is just a good technique that allows you to get your queens in position and deflect the hellions a lot more effectively. Actually, I'm gonna write out the BO so it's explicitly clear: + Show Spoiler +
15 hatch 16 pool 17 gas 17 overlord @100% pool -> queen x2, zerglings x2 @100 gas -> pull 2 drones off gas, one drone left in geyser @100% queens -> queen x1 (3rd queen) @6:00 optional ling swell (first larva pops off and speed finishes) @100% queen -> queen x1 (4th queen) @6:15-6:30 -> 3rd hatchery @100% queen -> queen x1 (5th queen) @~100 gas -> drones back on gas, 2nd gas, and double evo 6th queen + ling swell + spine crawler +1/+1 -> next 100 gas to lair -> next 50 gas to baneling nest -> burrow/overlord speed etc., etc. It's really pretty simple: just do what you're doing but continue to produce queens constantly out of the natural expo until you have 6 total. | ||
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chairmobile
United States111 Posts
I'm currently favoring gasless roach play in ZvZ, and had a question about compositions in roach-roach wars. I've been going pure roach, which tends to lose to roach-hydra, so my question is: why do korean pros go basically pure roach in zvz when roach hydra is better and not significantly slower? I've started going roach bane which is pretty awesome, as banes are super supply efficient compared to roaches and they wreck my opponent's hydras. Obviously this isn't a sustainable solution when infestors come out. Should I just be going roach hydra? | ||
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Zervas
Switzerland15 Posts
. Comments, criticism, new ideas and suggestions are highly appreciated! This might answer a couple of questions fot youguys:Teamliquid Thread with Mindmap ( I hope that it is allowed to post it here :S ) | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 04 2014 02:21 chairmobile wrote: Brief question here. I'm currently favoring gasless roach play in ZvZ, and had a question about compositions in roach-roach wars. I've been going pure roach, which tends to lose to roach-hydra, so my question is: why do korean pros go basically pure roach in zvz when roach hydra is better and not significantly slower? I've started going roach bane which is pretty awesome, as banes are super supply efficient compared to roaches and they wreck my opponent's hydras. Obviously this isn't a sustainable solution when infestors come out. Should I just be going roach hydra? Roach/hydra is a bit more of a defensive, "sit back and macro" composition while pure roach is a lot more aggressive and forces you to constantly be active with counterattacks, burrow roach attacks, and army pressure. Pure roach more naturally transitions into roach/infestor because infestors are actually more useful more quickly than hydras. Fungal also allows you to get better engagement angles and retreat from the higher firepower roach/hydra army if necessary. As far as I know, roach/bane should only be used for 2-base all-ins or to deal with turtle SH play. On June 04 2014 03:56 Zervas wrote: Just dropping this in here. I made a Mindmap about basic Zerg Strategies/Compositions/hints. It is still at the beginning and will grow im different areas, but there should already be some useful things in there for people . Comments, criticism, new ideas and suggestions are highly appreciated! This might answer a couple of questions fot youguys:Teamliquid Thread with Mindmap ( I hope that it is allowed to post it here :S ) It's fine dropping this in here. Thanks for the contributions! If you ever want to spend some time answering questions or helping out in this thread, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it . | ||
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MajorBiscuit
83 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 04 2014 07:38 MajorBiscuit wrote: OK people I am back with more questions. I have just been promoted to gold (yay me) and it seems that bunker rushing is very popular in this league. Now I have failed to stop this twice already and I have only played 3 matches since promotion. I usually go 15 pool 16 hatch but with this build I can't get zerglings fast enough to prevent the bunker from going down. The problem is that I don't scout it early enough, I usually get to scout my opponent's base at 15 supply by which time he already has marines out and starts building a bunker. Any help is appreciated. On most smaller maps like Habitation Station, close positions Waystation, and even Overgrowth, your first overlord tells you all the information you need. The first overlord is aimed directly at your opponent's main ramp to look for reaper opening vs. CC first vs. 1rax FE. If there's no barracks at the wall, you check the natural. If there's no CC in the natural and no barracks at the wall, then the barracks are proxies (or your opponent is really bad). As soon as you scout these two things, pull ~10 drones from your main to your natural and defend with them while you buy time for lings and a queen/spine at the natural. This is the standard way to hold a proxy rax. If you're not comfortable with relying on this twitch scout, you can always 1) scout on 10 with a drone on 2-player maps or 2) leave your second overlord over your natural hatchery before moving it into position to spot for those bunkers. EDIT: Defending with drones:
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