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United States4883 Posts
On May 22 2014 19:45 SC2Toastie wrote:
Is there any way to beat a maxed Protoss army without Swarmhost?
His army consisted of 5 Collosi, 8 Templar (full energy), 6 Archons, 6 Immortals and a lot of Stalkers + a couple of Sentries.
I hate the Swarmhost bullshit, I was on 6 mining bases spread throughout the map on Frost, Cross Spawns, and went for a 52 Mutalisk remax after losing my Roach Hydra army for almost no damage.
He amoved over me with some storms and that was that. That Protoss won a game after going failed cannonrush into failed immortal all in into make 12 cannons per base on 4 bases and I frustratingly feel like I could only have won with Swarmhosts...
Am I forced to go into Swarm Hosts if my opponent is willing to do nothing at all and play a lame turtle style..? I really, really hate the unit but I don't see any other way... The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk, I had the other main bases saturated, so he would never kill me in time, I suppose... I don't see Broodlords as a viable remax option.
See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/448648-zvp-at-its-finest-jaedong-vs-patience
I hate swarm hosts too, so this is the kind of lategame I've been working on. My end game army usually consists of ~8 queens/6 ultras/4 vipers/6 infestors/5-6 BLords/however many corruptors I can get. This is a little trickier to engage, but will easily take on a Protoss army without tempests head on. Currently I'm experimenting with muta/corruptor into this late game style, but you can also definitely transition from roach/hydra/viper -> trade out roaches for ultras -> add corruptors/BLords.
Because this ends up being a slow push army, you still have to get a lot of static defense at home. But the good news is that you tend to bank up a lot of money in the interim, so once you engage, you can produce 20+ mutas instantly and transition into muta/ling. If the maxed army fight goes well, I can usually just amove with the mutas ftw. If he somehow comes out ahead, he'll usually just try to counterattack and you can just go for the base trade.
If your opponent turtles on skytoss, though, you're going to have to get SH. There's just no way around it  .
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United States4883 Posts
BTW, here are some quick notes I wrote down yesterday about Muta/corruptor for anyone who's interested:
+ Show Spoiler +Some thoughts on Muta/corruptor and the ZvP Mid Game:
Muta/Corruptor or Muta/ling is designed to get ~5-6 bases up (only gases at the 5th and 6th) while teching up to hive; by the time the Protoss player gains enough momentum to break out of his base, the Zerg has hive tech and can appropriately counter his opponent's composition.
A note on double upgraded ling opening: This build can nicely transition into almost anything including roach/hydra, hydra/ling -> hive, hydra/ling -> muta/ling -> hive, or even directly into swarm hosts (though less likely).
At around 9:00, you have a solid decision time where you can choose what kind of mid game to have based on the buildings you put down.
spire/infestation pit:
Standard muta/ling opening, but can also be swarm hosts. With double upgraded ling opening, you usually already have ~600-800 gas banked up when the spire finishes. With the fast infestation pit, you can immediately go up to hive as soon as your first mutas/corruptors pop.
spire/hydra den:
This allows freedom to either go straight into mutalisks against a robo build or go for ~12 hydras into mutalisks. Likewise, it can also just transition into a more standard roach/hydra/corruptor or hydra/corruptor style. Best on small maps; not very good on large ones.
hydra den/infestation pit:
A more typical hydra/ling or roach/hydra opening. This allows you to get out some hydras and still tech up to hive very quickly. This is the best translation for a roach/hydra/viper timing.
How I can use this in my style:
I'm leaning more toward muta/corruptor now simply because it works better than a hydra mid game for putting on pressure. However, it's still possible to get to my end game from there fairly easily; I'll just add queens after my 5th and 6th bases and go up to a total of ~8, add on ultras and vipers, and then trade some of my mutas for broodlords and add infestors for the finishing touch. If the muta/corruptor pressure goes right, my opponent will probably be very heavily on blink/colossus with a lot of phoenixes, which the big ultra/BL/support army destroys. After trading, I should still have enough gas banked to switch back into mutas if I want to. The nice thing about going double upgraded lings into this style is that the melee upgrades continue to stack all game (zerglings -> ultras -> BLords -> muta/ling again).
End Game Army: 8 queens, 6 ultralisks, 4 vipers, 6 infestors, ~5-6 Blords, and ~20 corruptors = 162 supply?
Special note on busts:
If your opponent switches to phoenixes too quickly during your first phase of muta/ling, you can typically break his army with a direct muta/ling engagement. You can also snipe the natural wall and do a runby which is almost guaranteed to kill a nexus and which further delays your opponent's counterswing push later in the game.
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Thanks buddy!
So sad Swarmhost are the way to go >:-(
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On May 22 2014 16:07 6xFPCs wrote:Watched. Your third is abysmally late (you took it after 12 min or so). Try to get your third by 8min, even under the reaper pressure that you encountered. Possibly you have trouble against 3 reapers because you don't get ling speed on time, and your early build seems off. You overbuilt lings, especially since you're not getting speed; better to grab another queen. Anyway, you don't scout at all and just play middle of the road zerg, which does ok against this guy. You go fast ups into ultra, which is nice. But you need enough creep to defend, which you don't really ever get, and you need infestors if you want to engage off creep, which you never get. Your map awareness is catastrophically bad. You lose half your army because he baits it into tanks while you're busy with a drop, despite the fact that two ultras pop right in front of the drop and fighting it off meant all of one a-click. You lose your fourth because you a-move your whole army away to deal with a drop, so he runs in with his main army and snipes it. You have no overlord in the airspace through which he keeps dropping, so you're basically sitting around hoping he doesn't repeat the same trick--it ends up costing you the aforementioned half army, your fourth (which you need to rebuild ASAP when on 2200 minerals), then later a pool trying to finish adrenal glands. Just ... build a spore and leave an ultra there. Or a pack of lings on patrol. Something other than blindly hoping it doesn't happen over and over. You shove him back off 3-3 ultra ling, but you fail to keep remaking banes and never get infestors, so it's pretty even trading. Problem is that you never rebuilt your fourth, so you're way behind on income. You get a solid chance to end it when you punch through his natural, but you don't go into his production--which is what you always, always want to do in ZvT--so he comes back, keeps trading, and pushes you out. He's chugging away at 2k minerals/minute, and you don't get infestors, nor do you transfuse your ultras, so eventually he outlasts you. If he has two mining bases (the planetaries in this game), then you go for his production to shut it all down. Once he can't rebuild his marauders, your ultras can smash him at will. Things to improve on: map awareness--probably the one big thing you really really need. Keep injecting even in late game. You kept building only ultras because you had no larvae for lings, but you need lings and banes to keep going. Ultras don't really benefit from micro, so it's relatively safe to look away for injects. Take bases. The fast upgrades and fast hive tech means your late third is ok, but you could still take it much earlier. You later back yourself into an economic corner because you didn't rebuild your fourth. You also could've taken extra bases to counter his hatch-sniping, since you had extra minerals and were maxed for awhile. Add infestors to stop your ultras from being kited to death. This is probably the single most effective improvement you could make, in terms of amount of effort/training vs benefit.
Thank you very much for taking so much time to watch and write this up. I appreciate it very much and will keep all of this in mind as i keep moving forward and improving  Thank you
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With muta/corrupter don't be afraid to add on vipers as the game goes on, some of the KR are especially good at using vipers to pull out important units as protoss ball gets mixed up chasing you. Ripping an archon/colossus here and there can be a really good way to work the ball down while harassing.
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I'm really clueless on what to do vs 2rax.
These 2 games was vs major(we were playing copa america), but I also struggle vs the ppl I play on ladder.
Idk if I should pull drones or sac natural or smth, but sometimes I die to 2rax when going 15 pool -_-
Can someone help me based on what you see on streams/personal experience?
http://sc2share.com/BIV
http://sc2share.com/BIW
PS: I know that there is the answer in the OP, but what if I scout it late like I did in these games?
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How many drones do I want on 4 and 5 bases?
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United States4883 Posts
On May 23 2014 12:32 Survivor61316 wrote:
How many drones do I want on 4 and 5 bases?
Generally the maximum number of drones you want is around 80, which is about 3.5 mining bases. Beyond 3.5 bases of saturation, only mine gas (AKA in the instance you go muta/ling ZvP or against mech and have like 6 bases up). The only time you EVER go up to 90 drones is either you're about to lay down a massive static defense wall OR you're about to build 30 spines and get like 230/200 supply, both of which are fairly rare cases. For the time being just stick with about ~16/16/16/8 on minerals and all geysers.
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What is a good 2 base roach pressure build in ZvZ? I've been doing it with and without roach speed and/or +1 attack, but it seems to hit kind of late when I go with any type of upgrade (~9:00). Is that just hitting late, or should I just forego upgrades when attempting something like this?
Edit: Thanks for the above answer btw, thats very helpful
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did anyone actually play the balance test map and can tell what timing will eventually become popular. like hellbat marauder medivac stim? or hellbat banshee? hellbat drop? i wonder what would be a good timing for terran to add the armory.
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On May 24 2014 06:13 Terence Chill wrote:
did anyone actually play the balance test map and can tell what timing will eventually become popular. like hellbat marauder medivac stim? or hellbat banshee? hellbat drop? i wonder what would be a good timing for terran to add the armory.
Noone can tell you that until Korea shows us the way.
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On May 24 2014 08:51 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 06:13 Terence Chill wrote:
did anyone actually play the balance test map and can tell what timing will eventually become popular. like hellbat marauder medivac stim? or hellbat banshee? hellbat drop? i wonder what would be a good timing for terran to add the armory. Noone can tell you that until Korea shows us the way.
innovation will have 80% winrate on KR once again!!!
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On May 23 2014 14:14 Survivor61316 wrote:What is a good 2 base roach pressure build in ZvZ? I've been doing it with and without roach speed and/or +1 attack, but it seems to hit kind of late when I go with any type of upgrade (~9:00). Is that just hitting late, or should I just forego upgrades when attempting something like this? Edit: Thanks for the above answer btw, thats very helpful
2 base roach pressure isn't really a thing because of larva and income limitations at that stage of the game. standard zvz play is to go roaches and take a third because there's very little point in not building your third. the third costs 300 minerals, which isn't going to limit your roach production in a significant way, and once it finishes you have access to much more larvae, which is useful even if you don't saturate it. a good opponent will have eyes on your army size and third timing and be able to get their third up faster and still defend while getting their own upgrades. +1 attack without armor will let you be a little more aggressive with roaches, but you should still be putting down your third behind your push while ideally trying to kill or cancel his (also worth noting that +1/+1 is far better if your opponent goes muta)
if you like the idea of being aggressive in zvz, you can try out the +1 armor speedling opener. +1 armor lets lings survive bane hits and the mobility of speedlings will give you a good chance to pressure his third. from there you can transition straight into +1 attack and roaches and either a standard roach midgame or a roach/bane allin if that's your style. otherwise, you just have to try to have superior army control and multitasking to do work with standard roach play
never push with roaches and no roach speed unless you're going completely allin with a cheesy roach timing or roach/bane, because roaches without speed at standard 2base timings aren't going to win the game and won't be able to retreat
edit: also, since you just asked about drone count, be aware that in zvz it's perfectly common to stay on 55-60 drones for the duration of the game if you're in a standard roach war. taking your third and flooding drones immediately can work if your opponent just lets you do it, or maybe if it's a big map and you pull off some kind of killer defense with spines and transfuses, but if he attacks then you're just going to be behind in army and have no way to save your third and your now-pointless drones
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On May 23 2014 05:00 ThePastor wrote:
With muta/corrupter don't be afraid to add on vipers as the game goes on, some of the KR are especially good at using vipers to pull out important units as protoss ball gets mixed up chasing you. Ripping an archon/colossus here and there can be a really good way to work the ball down while harassing.
Won't phoenix snipe the vipers? The standard protoss response to muta corruptor seems to get 3sg phoenix.
In addition, with gas becoming the limiting factor for muta corruptor play, one viper is the equivalent cost of two muta or two corruptors; is that worth the tradeoff?
I never play muta corruptor so I am genuinely curious.
On May 24 2014 06:13 Terence Chill wrote:
did anyone actually play the balance test map and can tell what timing will eventually become popular. like hellbat marauder medivac stim? or hellbat banshee? hellbat drop? i wonder what would be a good timing for terran to add the armory.
First off, no, I didn't play the test map. But ... all the korean pros interviewed in this thread seem to agree that the 2 medivac timing will be improved (I believe they mean, roughly, when terran builds marines behind hellion harass, and once the first two medivacs come out they move out). I think as a result, you will really want roaches against any kind of potential followup to hellion-reaper. Whether you actually need them is another story. Probably Life will never need anything but lings, but certainly it gets more risky no matter who you are.
(What follows is a lot of theory. Serious, hopefully rational theory, but still just theory.)
In my experience, this timing was difficult to hold with just lings because the marines have reached the minimum "ball" size. However, queens or banes alongside lings seemed to handle it fine. With hellbats, it might be almost impossible to handle with just lings. But it could just be that zergs will adapt to this with more and earlier banes or something, and the fact that terran needs an armory will even things out a bit.
Likewise, hellion-banshee can suddenly become banshee-hellbat. With queens already spread thin before, I think roaches get a lot more desireable here, too, because you'll need to be ready for a surprise transformation followup--I'm thinking a frontal push to kill the third or natural. Hellbats can zone queens out really, really well.
Either way, the problem is that hellions, which are already a staple part of most openings in TvZ, get a simple switch that drastically changes them from speedy harass unit to lings-now-suck unit. You will absolutely need to have a roach warren built, because you might suddenly find your lings useless against the four hellions that have returned as hellbats. As a common part of ZvT, too, since every bio player will eventually need an armory to get 2-2. This change has basically made every possible timing require safety roaches to hold, just in case he adds an armory after he clears your overlord scout and does timing version 2 after whatever you've already scouted/held.
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i just really hope this does not turn out like something similar to the mass zealot out of a gate expo to kill a shit ton of larvae. but i suspect that is actually what blizzards wants. for me, roaches are still sound like "meh".
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On May 24 2014 10:34 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 05:00 ThePastor wrote:
With muta/corrupter don't be afraid to add on vipers as the game goes on, some of the KR are especially good at using vipers to pull out important units as protoss ball gets mixed up chasing you. Ripping an archon/colossus here and there can be a really good way to work the ball down while harassing. Won't phoenix snipe the vipers? The standard protoss response to muta corruptor seems to get 3sg phoenix. In addition, with gas becoming the limiting factor for muta corruptor play, one viper is the equivalent cost of two muta or two corruptors; is that worth the tradeoff? I never play muta corruptor so I am genuinely curious.
If they have heavy pheonix vipers are not worth adding in. It is mainly worth it when you are doing a muta/corrupter. It allows you to pick apart a protoss deathball. It is difficult to control.
With gas, the vipers are added late in the stage of muta/corrupter, it isn't until you are close to maxed that you are adding them in. If you have 30-40 mutas losing 4 of them for 2 vipers can definitely be worth it. it is definitely situational though
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On May 23 2014 12:14 ItzShakti wrote:I'm really clueless on what to do vs 2rax. These 2 games was vs major(we were playing copa america), but I also struggle vs the ppl I play on ladder. Idk if I should pull drones or sac natural or smth, but sometimes I die to 2rax when going 15 pool -_- Can someone help me based on what you see on streams/personal experience? http://sc2share.com/BIVhttp://sc2share.com/BIWPS: I know that there is the answer in the OP, but what if I scout it late like I did in these games?
Not an expert on the matter but I remember Zergs saying during the 2 rax era that 15 hatch is better than pool first since you have more larvae to produce lings with.
Edit: watched first replay. These proxies are the reason I always send my second overlord past the most obvious proxy location. Very few zergs seem to do this but I don't get the point of sending that overlord directly to your opponents base when the first one is already going to get all the information you need for the first minutes of the game.
I don't think you scouted it too late. I think you overreacted by pulling most of your drones and engaging outside of your natural. You were so focused on controlling those that you didn't build a spine or max out ling production. When you do it's already too late as the bunker is up and your units kinda go in little by little. Only engage when your spine (that has gone up as soon as the hatch pops) is being attacked, take hatch damage until you can flood with the spine lings and drones.
I usually makes 16 drones then send the 17th to my natural and poke out a bit to check for a proxy bunker or marine like that, then overlord. That way you can see this coming and already have the drone ready at your natural to build a spine. I think it's important to delay pulling drones for as long as possible.
Edit 2: Watched second game. I really feel you're pulling your drones way too early, a good 2 raxer won't let you catch his first marine with drones and when he gets 3 there's no engaging it with just drones, just mine more so you can use up all your larvae on lings. The spine part was good this game except you build 2 and pulled your drones too early so you couldn't make lings off of your expansion which meant you had no units to defend your spine. Your priority is to get that spine up, max out ling production and pool them to run by the bunker(s) if possible, you only engage when he's targeting your spine and back up when he backs up.
Edit 3: Saw TLO today make 3 spines and sacrificing his natural.
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On May 21 2014 17:34 Karpfen wrote:DRG vs soulkey: + Show Spoiler +I don't really think this build is that good though. It autoloses to non15 hatch and even vs hatchery first you can still lose if the opponent microes well.
Talking about this, I had the pleasure of facing this with 15 hatch 15 pool. What are my priorities here? I built 2 queens and maxed ling production as soon as I saw no expansion and I pretty much knew it was 11 pool baneling since earlier pools would've been there already and later pools would have had an expo started.
I chose to start a gas and mine from it as I figured a baneling nest was a must, but he gets there with banelings when my first expo lings are just popping, I guess there's nothing more to do at that point then to spread drones as well as possible?
What I have concluded so far is: 3rd OL should be in a better position outside my nat to aid in baneling wars, first 50 gas should go towards a baneling nest, block ramp with queens asap, forget about mining my natural until I have banelings. Anything else?
http://drop.sc/381365
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On May 23 2014 12:14 ItzShakti wrote:I'm really clueless on what to do vs 2rax. These 2 games was vs major(we were playing copa america), but I also struggle vs the ppl I play on ladder. Idk if I should pull drones or sac natural or smth, but sometimes I die to 2rax when going 15 pool -_- Can someone help me based on what you see on streams/personal experience? http://sc2share.com/BIVhttp://sc2share.com/BIWPS: I know that there is the answer in the OP, but what if I scout it late like I did in these games?
You're probably a much better player than I am, but I've been fighting off bunker rush/2rax deals since BW, and I like to think I'm decent at it.
My notes for both games in spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +
Overgrowth:
Scouted it late but no big deal, bunker far away and not done.
Underpull on drones. Need 2-3 more if you want to tangle with 4 marines.
Why engaging scvs? they are designed to tank. Need to chase marines. In trouble now, low drone count after losing those attacking drones.
Careless overlord loss at natural. Might be dead here, supplycap will be rough (will be low on lings, prob no second queen).
Spine needs to start behind hatch to avoid extra damage while building.
Why cancel spine reroot? He's just pinging it, you should dance lings in front. The spine is the cornerstone of not losing the natural hatch. Now you've erased 10sec worth of time, not in your favor because you're still under duress and lost a lot of drones. Ok, you root again but it's late and his econ will run you over.
Bleh supply block plus micro abuse gets you killed. He went marines full stop, possibly need to use an overlord to keep tabs on rax.
Frost:
good reaction on seeing supply depot at ramp. (might be obvious, but worth noting)
near-death drone should go back to main to mine
double spine? not going to have enough to afford lings and queen. yeah no queen, two larvae idle. really need that cash.
rather risky bunker. should be able to deny it.
that was a very haphazard engagement, lings need to be better timed to attack simultaneously with drones, instead of going in first. need all the drones to commit, prob try to take down that forward bunker (it's in range of hatch!). also should note that that attack angle would let you mineral walk drones, too, giving you a better approach into that narrow space.
killings scvs again! not a single marine died, as far as i can tell. easy terran win.
Overall, you need to get way better about hugging marines. Your biggest problem is that you attack scvs, which is useless unless you're denying a building bunker (which you weren't). The marines are the dps, and they are fragile; the scvs are a buffer to protect the marines. Kill the marines. Get your drones on top of the marines, get your lings next to the marines, and try to overwhelm him so that you get the surround. And don't forget that you can counter-stutter lings against his stutter step pattern (i.e., once you're next to him, move when he moves, and attack when he attacks).
In terms of build, most zergs seem to grab one spine (pressures bunker) and one queen (mitigates his ability to kite; builds energy for transfuse on spine [important as marine count grows]). The rest is pure lings from hatch larvae alone until you confirm that he has floated his rax away.
Always build the spine behind the hatchery. I can't remember the last time I saw someone win against 2rax when they built the spine in a forward position, it's just too risky and major/select/qxc/etc. will get in too much damage on it. (Though I think stephano held off a 2rax with a slightly forward spine last month? and then lost in the macro followup).
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EPT
