EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 171
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mooseman1710
United States153 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 27 2014 14:54 mooseman1710 wrote: How do you scout 7gates and blink allins when's talkers deny scouting and its a large map It's actually pretty simple. Keep an eye on the Protoss's natural geysers and if he hasn't taken them by 7:00, you know something's up. If you have map presence, you'll generally see a move out around 8:00-9:00, which gives you the cue to start making lots of units. Zergling speed finishes around 9:00 for most builds, so you should be able to get a good idea of what's going on and defend it just as it gets there. For pushes like these that are just designed to hit as fast as possible, large maps are actually an advantage as it gives you plenty of space to buy time with lings and start building your roach count. I highly recommend making a swell of lings just before ling speed finishes in ZvP (no matter what time that is); this is just a general thing that allows you to control the map better, scout for certain things, and kind of "blindly prepare" for pressure. Once you get better and understand the game better, you can cut back on the lings or skip them entirely -- it becomes calculated greed. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
help is much appreciated  | ||
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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
On May 30 2014 00:11 Decendos wrote: hey guys, can you tell me the latest standard builds (maybe 2 per MU) for the 3 MUs right now? i havent been playing in a long time and found myself losing every ZvP where i didnt go SHs at some point, lose every ZvT where i didnt go mutas at some point (although in ZvT roach bane und roach hydra kind of works for me depending on map) and lose every ZvZ where i havent gone roaches. is it really that narrow as of strats go for a master-level player? help is much appreciated ZvP: i highly recommend TLO´s standard 3 hatch gas opening he uses irrespective of gate or forge expand + Show Spoiler + 15 pool 16 hatch 16 ol 16 queen (inject main then tumor at natural) 18 drone rally to 3rd 19 drone rally to gas 21 gas 20 queen 22 hatch 24 ol 32 ol 32 speed + pull one drone out of gas ~5:25 40 queen 100% 3rd (he delayes it, i build it instantly) 42 ol 42 2x2 lings safety roach warren ~6:30, adapt from scouting (3 gate push f.e.) ZvZ: snutes 3 queens later gas + Show Spoiler + 15 pool 16 hatch 15 ol 15 queen (inject main then tumor natural 17 drone 18 1x2 lings to scout and decide if you can go speed first or baneling nest first 21 gas (use 20th drone to rally to gas) 21 queen 23 ol 24 queen 100% hatch 32 ol ~40 supply you can build 10+ lings to fight for 3rd bases 100 gas lair + evo +2 more gas + roach warren ~25% lair ZvT: 3 roach pressure + Show Spoiler + 15 pool 16 hatch 16 gas (pull 2 out when reaching 75 gas) 16 roach warren 15 1x2 lings to runby vs reaper and snipe cc buildung svv 16 queen (1 inject then 1 tumor then keep injecting) 18 ol 18 3 roaches 24 queen (tumor first then injects) 26 ol what it follow up with is: 36 ol + send drone to 3rd and build 3rd when it arrives 100 gas speed + up to 3 drones back in gas keep droning until you scout an attack comming and build 1 or 2 more queens some times i go lair before upgrades if i see a fast starport. a lot of raxxes means i go upgrades first Snutes standard with later gas + Show Spoiler + 15 hatch 16 pool 18 overlord 18 2x2 lings (if overlord scouts cc first in time dont build them. use extractor trick instead to build one more drone) 20 2 queens 24 overlord 25 gas ~4:00 - 4:10 100% queens 2 more queens 33 ol 40 ol + speed 100% overlord send drone and try to take 3rd 44 ol 57 ol 57 2 evo 55 ol 55... ling production +2 more queens, some drones, +1 +1, try runby with some lings, try 4th hatch at ~8:00 100% queens (5+6) lair, up to 6 gases + marco hatch ~8:40 - 9:00 of course, as a zerg, you always have to be ready to addapt | ||
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Haku
Germany550 Posts
On May 30 2014 00:33 Terence Chill wrote: ZvT: 3 roach pressure + Show Spoiler + 15 pool 16 hatch 16 gas (pull 2 out when reaching 75 gas) 16 roach warren 15 1x2 lings to runby vs reaper and snipe cc buildung svv 16 queen (1 inject then 1 tumor then keep injecting) 18 ol 18 3 roaches 24 queen (tumor first then injects) 26 ol what it follow up with is: 36 ol + send drone to 3rd and build 3rd when it arrives 100 gas speed + up to 3 drones back in gas keep droning until you scout an attack comming and build 1 or 2 more queens some times i go lair before upgrades if i see a fast starport. a lot of raxxes means i go upgrades first of course, as a zerg, you always have to be ready to addapt Thats not even close to beeing a standard build. | ||
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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On May 30 2014 00:33 Terence Chill wrote: ZvP: i highly recommend TLO´s standard 3 hatch gas opening he uses irrespective of gate or forge expand + Show Spoiler + 15 pool 16 hatch 16 ol 16 queen (inject main then tumor at natural) 18 drone rally to 3rd 19 drone rally to gas 21 gas 20 queen 22 hatch 24 ol 32 ol 32 speed + pull one drone out of gas ~5:25 40 queen 100% 3rd (he delayes it, i build it instantly) 42 ol 42 2x2 lings safety roach warren ~6:30, adapt from scouting (3 gate push f.e.) ZvZ: snutes 3 queens later gas + Show Spoiler + 15 pool 16 hatch 15 ol 15 queen (inject main then tumor natural 17 drone 18 1x2 lings to scout and decide if you can go speed first or baneling nest first 21 gas (use 20th drone to rally to gas) 21 queen 23 ol 24 queen 100% hatch 32 ol ~40 supply you can build 10+ lings to fight for 3rd bases 100 gas lair + evo +2 more gas + roach warren ~25% lair ZvT: 3 roach pressure + Show Spoiler + 15 pool 16 hatch 16 gas (pull 2 out when reaching 75 gas) 16 roach warren 15 1x2 lings to runby vs reaper and snipe cc buildung svv 16 queen (1 inject then 1 tumor then keep injecting) 18 ol 18 3 roaches 24 queen (tumor first then injects) 26 ol what it follow up with is: 36 ol + send drone to 3rd and build 3rd when it arrives 100 gas speed + up to 3 drones back in gas keep droning until you scout an attack comming and build 1 or 2 more queens some times i go lair before upgrades if i see a fast starport. a lot of raxxes means i go upgrades first Snutes standard with later gas + Show Spoiler + 15 hatch 16 pool 18 overlord 18 2x2 lings (if overlord scouts cc first in time dont build them. use extractor trick instead to build one more drone) 20 2 queens 24 overlord 25 gas ~4:00 - 4:10 100% queens 2 more queens 33 ol 40 ol + speed 100% overlord send drone and try to take 3rd 44 ol 57 ol 57 2 evo 55 ol 55... ling production +2 more queens, some drones, +1 +1, try runby with some lings, try 4th hatch at ~8:00 100% queens (5+6) lair, up to 6 gases + marco hatch ~8:40 - 9:00 of course, as a zerg, you always have to be ready to addapt thanks a lot!! | ||
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Frankie Teardrop
United States74 Posts
I've generally been taking a 4th around 10-11 minutes just because... | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On May 30 2014 07:34 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When should I be taking a 4th base against Protoss. Does deciding when to take it depend only on the Protoss 3rd timing, or does it also depend on his unit composition? I've generally been taking a 4th around 10-11 minutes just because... if you're heading toward a big muta switch, especially on a big map like alterzim or frost, it's not out of the question to just go for up to 10-12 gas pretty quickly. on the other hand, if you're on swarm hosts on habitation or something like that, you can stay on 3-4 bases for a shockingly long time. 10-11 minutes is probably the latest you'd want to have a fourth unless it's one of those crazy allin games where the trades are even and you both just keep making units obviously if he has no third you should be preparing to defend a 2base allin. if the 2base doesn't come and he takes a late third, what you do kinda depends on how much lair army you built. if you have a lot of roach/hydra and he has a deathball and a third going up then you need to trade that supply out for higher tech pretty quickly, so you want to either break the third or do some multi-pronged attacks involving running lings or roaches into the natural and main while pressuring the third in mid leagues a lot of protoss have success by making a huge 2base army and a late third because zergs fail to trade their army efficiently and end up engaging with a bad composition and losing with a large bank | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 30 2014 07:34 Frankie Teardrop wrote: When should I be taking a 4th base against Protoss. Does deciding when to take it depend only on the Protoss 3rd timing, or does it also depend on his unit composition? I've generally been taking a 4th around 10-11 minutes just because... The timing of your fourth base depends heavily on the third timing of the Protoss and also what your mid game revolves around. The normal Protoss third timing is before 10:00. If it's later than that, you should be either expecting a 2-base all-in or some kind of third behind heavy pressure build. My general rule is: if you see the third go down, go ahead and just make an instant 4th. If you plan on doing some kind of a lair bust (roach//ling, hydra/ling, roach/hydra, or something with corruptors), skip the 4th until during or after the timing. With muta/ling, you generally get your first group of mutas and zerglings, then double expand and go up to five bases really quickly, mining mostly gas at them. There are a couple of deceiving builds like the 3-base blink build that will outright just kill your fourth base and possibly even just kill you for taking it as well as a couple of 1-2 colossus timings that can cancel the fourth. These are kind of like exceptions, though, and you'll be able to learn how to avoid them by just taking your fourth early every time and making adjustments when you lose to them. Hope this helps! | ||
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Frankie Teardrop
United States74 Posts
On May 30 2014 10:08 SC2John wrote: The timing of your fourth base depends heavily on the third timing of the Protoss and also what your mid game revolves around. The normal Protoss third timing is before 10:00. If it's later than that, you should be either expecting a 2-base all-in or some kind of third behind heavy pressure build. My general rule is: if you see the third go down, go ahead and just make an instant 4th. If you plan on doing some kind of a lair bust (roach//ling, hydra/ling, roach/hydra, or something with corruptors), skip the 4th until during or after the timing. With muta/ling, you generally get your first group of mutas and zerglings, then double expand and go up to five bases really quickly, mining mostly gas at them. There are a couple of deceiving builds like the 3-base blink build that will outright just kill your fourth base and possibly even just kill you for taking it as well as a couple of 1-2 colossus timings that can cancel the fourth. These are kind of like exceptions, though, and you'll be able to learn how to avoid them by just taking your fourth early every time and making adjustments when you lose to them. Hope this helps! Excellent post, as usual. My preference in ZvP is to do as much damage with roach/hydra/ling as possible, and to hit the Protoss 3rd before they get too many higher tech units out. (Usually colossus). I do different types of busts depending on what I scout. Sometimes I go for a roach/ling bust as soon as roaches speed and +1 finishes (usually around 10:30 with 20-30 roaches and 30-50 lings. Sometimes I even go for double roach warren so I can have burrow move with this push). Other times, if I scout stargate, I will hit get hydra den as soon as lair finishes and get hydra speed before range, then move out once hydra speed/+1 finishes. (Usually around 11:30-12:00 with 15-20 hydras, 8-12 roaches, and maybe 20-30 lings or so). Are these timing attacks viable? If so, should I be taking a 4th after I move out? Are there any scenarios when I will want double upgrades with these midgame timing attacks instead of just +1 ranged? If my timing attack doesn't do too much damage, I usually transition into either roach/hydra/viper, mutas, or swarm hosts. That being said, I'd like to avoid having to use mutas and sh, so I would love any suggestions that would help my early/midgame timing attacks do more damage more often. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
I tend to grab at least a few roaches as part of my usual play, but I still had trouble against a one-base hellbat all-in (double reactor factory into armory, scvs pulled to repair hellbats) and against hellbat double-medivac timings (things like 10 marines, 4 hellbats, leftover reaper or two, and 2 medivacs). Overall, it feels to me like slow roaches alone are too inefficient against hellbats unless kiting on creep; it's like fighting zealots with splash. So my central question is: how are you dealing with hellbats? (banelings? roach splitting? queen support? extra lings to distract the hellbats? spines?) The hellbat transition itself is generally tough enough that I always end up with fewer dronesdue to needing more units to fight them (compared to fighting off the hellion equivalent) . And the threat of the transition is also keeping me at lower econ than I want to be. So it isn't that I'm losing to a single push, but rather that I constantly risk falling behind normal 3CC builds, much more so than normal. Advice and discussion would be greatly appreciated. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 31 2014 07:22 Frankie Teardrop wrote: Excellent post, as usual. My preference in ZvP is to do as much damage with roach/hydra/ling as possible, and to hit the Protoss 3rd before they get too many higher tech units out. (Usually colossus). I do different types of busts depending on what I scout. Sometimes I go for a roach/ling bust as soon as roaches speed and +1 finishes (usually around 10:30 with 20-30 roaches and 30-50 lings. Sometimes I even go for double roach warren so I can have burrow move with this push). Other times, if I scout stargate, I will hit get hydra den as soon as lair finishes and get hydra speed before range, then move out once hydra speed/+1 finishes. (Usually around 11:30-12:00 with 15-20 hydras, 8-12 roaches, and maybe 20-30 lings or so). Are these timing attacks viable? If so, should I be taking a 4th after I move out? Are there any scenarios when I will want double upgrades with these midgame timing attacks instead of just +1 ranged? If my timing attack doesn't do too much damage, I usually transition into either roach/hydra/viper, mutas, or swarm hosts. That being said, I'd like to avoid having to use mutas and sh, so I would love any suggestions that would help my early/midgame timing attacks do more damage more often. Quite honestly, this post read as "I do pretty much whatever in ZvP and have no real idea whether or not these are good or bad strategies." Which is fine, that's how most people on ladder play, I think. Here are some ideas that might help focus those ideas: In short, you can make most lair tech busts (not matter the units) work under the right circumstances. You need to be able to treat busts as a sort of 3-base all-in; everything in your game plan and strategy needs to go into making that timing as strong as possible and, likewise, they need to be an appropriate response to what your opponent is doing. With everything in Zerg, you really need to commit to it or not. Either you power super hard and make nothing but units and drill the third or you just pressure lightly and drone heavily behind it. Zerg is heavily based on very quick and decisive actions. By the sound of it, you generally go "Okay, it's time to make a lot of units and punish his third!...oh wait, he's pretty prepared, I guess I'll back off and drone some," which is actually a terrible mindset. Something that we kind of naturally lean into (in the foreigner world) when we're learning is the idea of "playing safe" and then, as we get better, we throw in "pressures". Koreans learn the opposite way; they cheese and do severe 2-base timings all day everyday until they KNOW every facet of the early/mid game, every scouting pattern, every potential timing, etc. Imo, it's really important to just practice doing ONE bust at a time and optimizing it as best you can, practicing it against every Protoss you come up against, and assessing where its true powers lie and how to make it better. So, ALL that said, I would pick a timing and just see how well you can hit it. For instance, if your opponent is going for a 9:00 nexus, you want your attack to hit just before the nexus finishes, around 10:30. If you try to do a roach/hydra timing at 10:30, it's pretty much impossible, so then you're target timing is changed to something like just before the second colossus pops out and thermal lance isn't finished, which might be around 11:30-12:00. If you're not winning at these times, try solving it with innovations instead of discarding it as "not effective". For instance, maybe you can drone harder in the early game, maybe you can skip the swell of lings you built for "safety", etc. The idea is to make these timings as singularly powerful as possible. Once you understand these timings well, then you can address the idea of a fourth base. Of course, there's always the "oh shit, that didn't win, I guess I'll take a fourth and go into a macro game" response, but your game plan should probably revolve around doing a bust or not and how much pressure you want to do relative to the timing of your fourth (of course, there are also interesting viper busts that revolve around getting a fast fourth too, but we'll consider those strategies outliers). For a fully committed bust, you do not take the fourth unless you can't break your opponent. If you're doing a light pressure while expanding, you generally take it after the first swell of units (i.e. get ~10 hydras, take a 4th, then pressure). If you're aiming toward the late game or you want to hit a really fast viper timing, you can take the fourth literally as soon as you see the Protoss third go down (although, this obviously has some vulnerabilities. As for followups, the only real followups Zerg has in the mid game are roach/hydra, mutas, or SHs, (or really fast hive), so pick ONE and stick with it. Your game plan, and thus your transition into the mid game and late game, should be laid out before you even enter the game. The only reason to deviate from a game plan is because of opportunity, but like the early game, you really need to know exactly all of the situations played out by each composition against each composition before you can reliably say something like, "Yeah, a muta switch right now is the right thing to do. I COULD continue going roach/hydra, but mutas will put me so far ahead that my later switch will be stronger." By the sounds of it, you seem to favor roach/hydra/viper, so just stick with that for now. Double upgrades are great for timing-oriented attacks. Most of the double upgraded timings are: +1/+1 roach/hydra, +1/+1 roach/hydra/corruptor, +2/+2 roach/hydra/viper, and things like hydra/ling/corruptor timings. If you're wanting to smash the third base, I highly suggest playing super greedy into double ups into roach/hydra timing; you're passive for a little bit longer, but it makes your pressure much stronger. Quick anecdote: + Show Spoiler + About ~6 months back, I remember watching an interview with MC and the commentators were asking him his thoughts on the game and he was saying, "Oh, Nexus first, he knows 2-base all-in." And that was like shocking moment for me. In short, if you're playing to the mid game, play greedy. If you're playing to the late game, play it safe. This is why you'll very often see Soultrains off of the backs of FFE on maps like Merry Go Round or Waystation where it's very difficult for the Protoss to take a 3rd base. So many people are caught up in this kind of arbitrary idea of "greed", where they do dumb things like go triple hatch before pool on Alterzim "because it's big" and then play an incredibly passive game trying to stave off harassment attempts or likewise, people who open 14 pool every game and try to do roach busts and wonder why it's not working. We've got it in our head that we either need to be "safe" or that, for rather arbitrary reasons, we can be "greedy", but the truth is that it all relates DIRECTLY to your game plan. Get a good game plan. Stick with it. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 31 2014 10:37 6xFPCs wrote: Let's talk about ZvT and the new hellbat transformation deal. I tend to grab at least a few roaches as part of my usual play, but I still had trouble against a one-base hellbat all-in (double reactor factory into armory, scvs pulled to repair hellbats) and against hellbat double-medivac timings (things like 10 marines, 4 hellbats, leftover reaper or two, and 2 medivacs). Overall, it feels to me like slow roaches alone are too inefficient against hellbats unless kiting on creep; it's like fighting zealots with splash. So my central question is: how are you dealing with hellbats? (banelings? roach splitting? queen support? extra lings to distract the hellbats? spines?) The hellbat transition itself is generally tough enough that I always end up with fewer dronesdue to needing more units to fight them (compared to fighting off the hellion equivalent) . And the threat of the transition is also keeping me at lower econ than I want to be. So it isn't that I'm losing to a single push, but rather that I constantly risk falling behind normal 3CC builds, much more so than normal. Advice and discussion would be greatly appreciated. I honestly haven't played ANY ZvT since the patch (because for some reason ladder loves to give me only ZvZ and ZvP), BUT what I predict is that the meta will shift back toward the gasless 4-queen opening and that people will skip zergling speed until a little bit later. This allows you to get a 4th base up quickly without delaying your lair for roaches and will also allow for massive amounts of creep spread to combat your lack of other map control. I think the reason why opening early speed became so popular (and the standard) is because it allowed Zerg to push reapers away quite effectively and opened a lot of aggressive potential for busts, etc., as well as just giving the Zerg a lot of room to breath and guaranteed safety against any kinds of 1.5 base shenanigans (things like CS timings and stuff). We may also see a resurgence in roach/hydra play as well as roach/ling play, but I'm not sure that either is particularly reliable. | ||
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Jowj
United States248 Posts
On May 31 2014 11:09 SC2John wrote: I honestly haven't played ANY ZvT since the patch (because for some reason ladder loves to give me only ZvZ and ZvP), BUT what I predict is that the meta will shift back toward the gasless 4-queen opening and that people will skip zergling speed until a little bit later. This allows you to get a 4th base up quickly without delaying your lair for roaches and will also allow for massive amounts of creep spread to combat your lack of other map control. I think the reason why opening early speed became so popular (and the standard) is because it allowed Zerg to push reapers away quite effectively and opened a lot of aggressive potential for busts, etc., as well as just giving the Zerg a lot of room to breath and guaranteed safety against any kinds of 1.5 base shenanigans (things like CS timings and stuff). We may also see a resurgence in roach/hydra play as well as roach/ling play, but I'm not sure that either is particularly reliable. Actually I think that the Early Game Meta won't change very much. 4Q is definitely an option, but I think its the least good response to the hellion change. I'm continuing with ling speed > 6Q builds a la JD/DRG unless i'm scouting something very out of the ordinary. For me its been working like this: <8 hellions - Ling/queen holds 8-10 helions + reapers - Ling/Queen/Spine holds until standard baneling time, and then ling/bane holds whatever. 2Fac, regardless of BF - Need roaches, otherwise hilariously larva inefficient. Basically it feels like it did pre patch, it just makes Terran able to punish Zergs with bad control more, which honestly was needed in the early game. Now, mid game and beyond there's some big differences as hellbats are unlocked earlier, and midgame timings where the hellions didn't die are much stronger. Some of those variants might require roaches, i'm not sure as I haven't played against all of them. The ones I have played, like just a standard 2vac push but with hellbats instead of hellions have been held for me with intelligent spore placement + bringing 3-4 queens to the frontline of creep. | ||
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MajorBiscuit
83 Posts
How do I defend a DT rush as a zerg? I just got hit by 4 DTs at about 07:30 and I had no idea it was coming. I was expecting aggression as the protoss had not expanded but I only had lings and a spine crawler as I was expecting some sort of 4gate push. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 01 2014 17:50 MajorBiscuit wrote: Hello people, How do I defend a DT rush as a zerg? I just got hit by 4 DTs at about 07:30 and I had no idea it was coming. I was expecting aggression as the protoss had not expanded but I only had lings and a spine crawler as I was expecting some sort of 4gate push. scouting it would be the best way. As with any Protoss 1base gasheavy play, you should scout for those things if he has no expansion: - 2gases mined with 3workers each? If no, it's probably just some ~6-7min 4gateway allin - number and timing of sentries: Early sentries delay tech. Many sentries and there can't be tech; - tech buildings: twilight council, dark shrine, robo, stargate If there is the possibility of a DT play - so double gas and no other tech scouted - the safest way is to put down one spore crawler at each of your two bases around 6mins and keep most of your army around the natural area. Prepare for a follow up Archon/Zealot push by making a roach warren around 6:30. also be aware of Warp Prism + DT play. Scouting a robo does not have to mean it is no DTs, if he is not building immortals and going straight to a prism it could be DT with drops as well (that's why you want to have a spore in your main base as well, since it is near impossible to know whether a protoss also has a robo somewhere on the map, dedicated to make just one warp prism; it's superrare because it is very weak, but you really don't want to die to DTs after figuring it is DTs  ). | ||
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MajorBiscuit
83 Posts
On June 01 2014 18:01 Big J wrote: scouting it would be the best way. As with any Protoss 1base gasheavy play, you should scout for those things if he has no expansion: - 2gases mined with 3workers each? If no, it's probably just some ~6-7min 4gateway allin - number and timing of sentries: Early sentries delay tech. Many sentries and there can't be tech; - tech buildings: twilight council, dark shrine, robo, stargate If there is the possibility of a DT play - so double gas and no other tech scouted - the safest way is to put down one spore crawler at each of your two bases around 6mins and keep most of your army around the natural area. Prepare for a follow up Archon/Zealot push by making a roach warren around 6:30. also be aware of Warp Prism + DT play. Scouting a robo does not have to mean it is no DTs, if he is not building immortals and going straight to a prism it could be DT with drops as well (that's why you want to have a spore in your main base as well, since it is near impossible to know whether a protoss also has a robo somewhere on the map, dedicated to make just one warp prism; it's superrare because it is very weak, but you really don't want to die to DTs after figuring it is DTs ).Thank you for your answer it is very helpful. Although I do have one more question. How do I scout if has walled off the ramp to his main? I had scouted with a drone before the wall was completed and I saw 1 assimilator being and a gateway. After that I couldn't get in. I didn't want to send an overlord in even though I had one at the edge of his base because if there was a stalker out I would lose it. Do I just send it in and risk losing it? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 01 2014 18:11 MajorBiscuit wrote: Thank you for your answer it is very helpful. Although I do have one more question. How do I scout if has walled off the ramp to his main? I had scouted with a drone before the wall was completed and I saw 1 assimilator being and a gateway. After that I couldn't get in. I didn't want to send an overlord in even though I had one at the edge of his base because if there was a stalker out I would lose it. Do I just send it in and risk losing it? yes, usually you have to sacrifice an overlord around 5:00 to 5:30 to get that kind of information. But it's nearly always worth it. Another helpful trick is to mineral walk a drone through his zealot, if he walls with a gateway+cybernetics core+zealot. So basically, you go to the ramp with the drone, and right click it on a mineral of the Protoss main base and the drone will just pass through the zealot and take some damage. Of course it has the same disadvantage as flying in with an overlord, he can kill the scout with a ranged unit easily. But this trick is very helpful very early on, if the Protoss skips a sentry or stalker to get out some tech. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 01 2014 18:11 MajorBiscuit wrote: Thank you for your answer it is very helpful. Although I do have one more question. How do I scout if has walled off the ramp to his main? I had scouted with a drone before the wall was completed and I saw 1 assimilator being and a gateway. After that I couldn't get in. I didn't want to send an overlord in even though I had one at the edge of his base because if there was a stalker out I would lose it. Do I just send it in and risk losing it? Another good way to look at it is simply seeing no expansion by 5:00 and seeing nothing moving across the map and no units attacking you by 6:00. From this, you can draw the conclusion that you're getting hit by something tech based like an oracle or DTs, in which case building spores blindly at each of your bases will take of . You should be able to handle pretty much everything else with ~35 drones/2 gases -> nonstop roach/ling production.The only time I REALLY have trouble with this is on Alterzim, where you simply CANNOT scout effectively before 7:00 in cross spawns  . | ||
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