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On May 20 2014 05:26 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 04:11 sicco_ wrote:
I really have problems with a 2 reaper + 2 hellion opening followed by a fast 3rd cc.
Usually I open with hatch – pool – gas.
What is the best way to deal with this? Defend with queens and take a fast third? Go for roaches? Fast muta?
I tried to roach/bane bust with bane und roach speed, but it is way too late.
I feel like I’m behind the whole time in every way. League: dia
If the idea is to all in with roach/bane you need to go without speed. Otherwise you just defend with queens/lings while droning and expanding. Remember your queens can take a severe beating before they die. When the hellion/reaper starts getting overly aggressive fake commit with your lings to push him back. + Show Spoiler +Effort recently played against flash and beat him in the CJ vs KT play off. Effort's defense against Flash's hellion/reaper was amazing, literally almost perfect control. If you watch this carefully you will see how he deals with this aggression. Pay particular attention to how he drones up while defending. Then see how he transitions into a win in the mid game.
i'm always behind in eco, so i feel the need to do something, but i'm not comfortable without speed upgrades. so i guess i will try to take a third.
ty for the advice
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At what time should you get Hive in ZvT?
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United States4883 Posts
On May 20 2014 12:16 Dynamitekid wrote:
At what time should you get Hive in ZvT?
If you're playing somewhat like this then the answer is right around 14:00-15:00 or so: Revival's Muta/Ling Mid Game ZvT
But this is not a hard and fast rule and is determined moreso by how comfortably you're situated on 4 bases and whether or not you can spare the gas to tech up to hive. General rule is this: if you break the Terran's 2/2 push and feel comfortable, take the hive. If you're still on uneven footing, continue with muta/ling/bling until you get comfortable. A lot of times the game may not even get to this point and you'll just be sitting on muta/ling/bling and constant rallies all game long (see: DRG vs. Innovation).
On May 20 2014 06:19 sicco_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 05:26 ThePastor wrote:On May 20 2014 04:11 sicco_ wrote:
I really have problems with a 2 reaper + 2 hellion opening followed by a fast 3rd cc.
Usually I open with hatch – pool – gas.
What is the best way to deal with this? Defend with queens and take a fast third? Go for roaches? Fast muta?
I tried to roach/bane bust with bane und roach speed, but it is way too late.
I feel like I’m behind the whole time in every way. League: dia
If the idea is to all in with roach/bane you need to go without speed. Otherwise you just defend with queens/lings while droning and expanding. Remember your queens can take a severe beating before they die. When the hellion/reaper starts getting overly aggressive fake commit with your lings to push him back. + Show Spoiler +Effort recently played against flash and beat him in the CJ vs KT play off. Effort's defense against Flash's hellion/reaper was amazing, literally almost perfect control. If you watch this carefully you will see how he deals with this aggression. Pay particular attention to how he drones up while defending. Then see how he transitions into a win in the mid game. i'm always behind in eco, so i feel the need to do something, but i'm not comfortable without speed upgrades. so i guess i will try to take a third. ty for the advice
Just do this build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445783-sc2-notes-hyuns-roach-hydra-zvt.
It's the shit. You use roaches to secure your third base, it's super easy, and, if your macro is doing okay, you'll smash your opponent with 150 supply at 10:30  .
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On May 19 2014 09:01 LyleGately wrote:I feel silly asking this, but what is the best way to respond to a Terran that PFs/turrets every base but his main? http://ggtracker.com/matches/5050173I tried switching to roaches in this game and it failed pretty horribly. 8800 resources lost to get the one PF. Other things also went horribly wrong in this game, but it's not the first time I've lost to this. Should I have gone to swarm hosts and then deal with drops with muta/ling? Somewhat related, if I see Terran going heavy marauder/mine, should I stick with muta/ling/bling or is there a better comp?
I watched the replay. Not pretty.
He goes 3CC before anything, you fail to scout it until well after you commit to a ling-bane attack on 2-base saturation (the classic "economic" bane bust, I think?). The PFs aren't your problem--in fact, you are really lucky they were PFs, because if they were OCs, you would be dead at that point due to him having outstripped you in supply, econ-cheese style. You simply didn't scout, so you gave him an easy and fast three base econ. I think that is the real story of this replay, or at least the core story. This was not an even game where PFs tipped the balance, this was a super-greedy build that you didn't get to punish.
Specific stuff:
You fail with the ling-bane, you see double PFs (nat and third), so you... reload on 64 lings? You... sit on three bases vs his three? I would take a fourth and fifth, spam drones (you just wiped his bio ball, he can't counter just yet) to 3-base saturation, and make the mutas as you did. Mutas immediately hit the third, NOT PLAY TAG WITH VIKINGS (you have a ton of queens for this) to get in damage before turrets go up. As fourth and fifth finish, transfer 8ish drones from each base to the fourth and fifth, and add 8 more drones for 16 drones per base. Load up on lings, build a bunch of banes, poke around to deny his fourth or fight off his next attack. Dump resources to deny fourth or fight (i.e., banes, mutas) as much as is sensible; start hive in the background. Add gases to fourth and fifth, start ultras+chitinous and 3/3. Play chicken with his fourth until ultras and upgrades pop, then wipe his third (closest base to you; can't lift a PF).
Also, you probably realized this after the very last fight, but don't engage with lings without banes or ultras. Especially since you just threw a ton of resources into both. Sack your third for it, run the drones before he gets close. You cannot fight with just lings, you will lose the army then the base. Better to just hand him the base, mitigate the damage by saving drones and starting another expo elsewhere.
To answer your question: SH is the answer to PFs (especially with mech), it forces him to get enough tanks to defend locust waves. Another answer to PFs is ultras, as they can weather the shots while taking enough enough space that the AOE damage is mitigated as well. Ultras generally go with ling-bane-muta (i.e., anti-bio), however.
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I search a very new and Fresh replay of a ZvZ 10 Pool baneling used in pro level
ty
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On May 20 2014 22:32 DERASTAT wrote:
I search a very new and Fresh replay of a ZvZ 10 Pool baneling used in pro level
ty
As in a replay of it happening and the person winning with it or defending against it?
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On May 21 2014 04:49 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 22:32 DERASTAT wrote:
I search a very new and Fresh replay of a ZvZ 10 Pool baneling used in pro level
ty As in a replay of it happening and the person winning with it or defending against it?
A Replay where somebody wins with it, and even more awosome would be a win against a 15 Pool.
PS: where can i find those replays?
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http://ggtracker.com/matches/5056051
Hello, I've been playing alot of ZvT's that happen this way lately, I would really like and appreciate any and all available help thank you guys
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On May 21 2014 05:04 DERASTAT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 04:49 ThePastor wrote:On May 20 2014 22:32 DERASTAT wrote:
I search a very new and Fresh replay of a ZvZ 10 Pool baneling used in pro level
ty As in a replay of it happening and the person winning with it or defending against it? A Replay where somebody wins with it, and even more awosome would be a win against a 15 Pool. PS: where can i find those replays?
To be honest, the last time in the Korean (I only have time to follow Korea) scene I can remember a 10 pool baneling working is Samsung Shine doing it in proleague. If you look up his game against soulkey you will see him win. I think it was in the first round, in saying that, soulkey messed up massively with control. Apart from that the 10 pool baneling player almost always loses. Just ask artosis he always comments that it is the worst build possible.
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DRG vs soulkey: + Show Spoiler +
I don't really think this build is that good though. It autoloses to non15 hatch and even vs hatchery first you can still lose if the opponent microes well.
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Saving all overlords on one control group???
I have heard that TLO does this. (I never bothered to confirm this). That being said, I can only think of advantages here.
Should you see your opponent is actively seeking and destroying your ovies you can quickly select all of them to get back home, or start puking creep with all of them at once... Anyways, just interested to find out whether anyone is doing this.
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On May 22 2014 00:47 ZedraC wrote:
Saving all overlords on one control group???
I have heard that TLO does this. (I never bothered to confirm this). That being said, I can only think of advantages here.
Should you see your opponent is actively seeking and destroying your ovies you can quickly select all of them to get back home, or start puking creep with all of them at once... Anyways, just interested to find out whether anyone is doing this.
there's almost never a disadvantage to control grouping units unless, obviously, you do it in a way that fucks up your ability to micro and rally. the skill ceiling for control groups is almost infinite. the issue is usually "am i going to remember to use this, am i good enough to benefit from it, am i going to mess up while trying to use it," etc. for example when i was new to sc2 i started control grouping my spawning pool on 6 because i wanted to have quick access to all my tech buildings without looking at my base. turns out i never remembered to use it and never started putting any other tech on it, and it wouldn't have been very useful anyway. but for some reason i still control group the pool to 6 out of habit, lol
one potential drawback i can think of is that if you group ALL overlords while they're hatching you may run into issues later on when morphing overseers which you want to have with your army or at home, so then if you use your mass OL group you might be sending all your detection across the map. honestly i think a better idea would just be control grouping ONLY overlords you are intending to spread across the map. but yeah sure if you can remember to use it and use it well i don't see why not, you could easily throw it on 7 or some other less-accessible number
that said, personally i just don't think it's something that will be terribly useful. i just don't spread 10 overlords at once until i know it's not a phoenix or muta opening from my opponent. if i do ever have to pull them back i don't find it very difficult to do it one by one. but if it's something you feel comfortable with, you can experiment with it
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On May 22 2014 00:47 ZedraC wrote:
Saving all overlords on one control group???
I have heard that TLO does this. (I never bothered to confirm this). That being said, I can only think of advantages here.
Should you see your opponent is actively seeking and destroying your ovies you can quickly select all of them to get back home, or start puking creep with all of them at once... Anyways, just interested to find out whether anyone is doing this.
I have a dedicated control group for this and bound the add-to-that-control-group function to Shift, without any other key. So whenever I build an overlord, I quickly press Shift, and the overlord is on that control group – no need to select eggs or anything. When I want to do something with all my overlords later, I select that control group and Control-click the overlords.
Of course, with the Shift binding, you will end up with a lot of random stuff on that control group, so it should be a bit out of reach to prevent accidental move commands. But as long as you don't already use ten control groups for other things (almost nobody does that), there are only upsides to this method. All you have to do is get into the habit of pressing Shift after every overlord.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 22 2014 00:47 ZedraC wrote:
Saving all overlords on one control group???
I have heard that TLO does this. (I never bothered to confirm this). That being said, I can only think of advantages here.
Should you see your opponent is actively seeking and destroying your ovies you can quickly select all of them to get back home, or start puking creep with all of them at once... Anyways, just interested to find out whether anyone is doing this.
Imo, it's only really important for like the first 4-5 overlords. Beyond that, the rest of your overlords are either a) staying fairly close to your base and spotting airspace or b) haven't hatched before you already identified a threat (viking/phoenix/spire play).
That said, I don't really do it because I don't think it's worth the extra APM. If I see some kind of threat to my overlords, I'll just gather up the ones that are closest and try to hide the ones out on the map (and/or just forget about them because they're gonna die either way).
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On May 21 2014 07:04 weebs wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/5056051Hello, I've been playing alot of TvT's that happen this way lately, I would really like and appreciate any and all available help thank you guys
Watched.
Your third is abysmally late (you took it after 12 min or so). Try to get your third by 8min, even under the reaper pressure that you encountered. Possibly you have trouble against 3 reapers because you don't get ling speed on time, and your early build seems off. You overbuilt lings, especially since you're not getting speed; better to grab another queen.
Anyway, you don't scout at all and just play middle of the road zerg, which does ok against this guy. You go fast ups into ultra, which is nice. But you need enough creep to defend, which you don't really ever get, and you need infestors if you want to engage off creep, which you never get.
Your map awareness is catastrophically bad. You lose half your army because he baits it into tanks while you're busy with a drop, despite the fact that two ultras pop right in front of the drop and fighting it off meant all of one a-click. You lose your fourth because you a-move your whole army away to deal with a drop, so he runs in with his main army and snipes it. You have no overlord in the airspace through which he keeps dropping, so you're basically sitting around hoping he doesn't repeat the same trick--it ends up costing you the aforementioned half army, your fourth (which you need to rebuild ASAP when on 2200 minerals), then later a pool trying to finish adrenal glands. Just ... build a spore and leave an ultra there. Or a pack of lings on patrol. Something other than blindly hoping it doesn't happen over and over.
You shove him back off 3-3 ultra ling, but you fail to keep remaking banes and never get infestors, so it's pretty even trading. Problem is that you never rebuilt your fourth, so you're way behind on income. You get a solid chance to end it when you punch through his natural, but you don't go into his production--which is what you always, always want to do in ZvT--so he comes back, keeps trading, and pushes you out. He's chugging away at 2k minerals/minute, and you don't get infestors, nor do you transfuse your ultras, so eventually he outlasts you. If he has two mining bases (the planetaries in this game), then you go for his production to shut it all down. Once he can't rebuild his marauders, your ultras can smash him at will.
Things to improve on: map awareness--probably the one big thing you really really need.
Keep injecting even in late game. You kept building only ultras because you had no larvae for lings, but you need lings and banes to keep going. Ultras don't really benefit from micro, so it's relatively safe to look away for injects.
Take bases. The fast upgrades and fast hive tech means your late third is ok, but you could still take it much earlier. You later back yourself into an economic corner because you didn't rebuild your fourth. You also could've taken extra bases to counter his hatch-sniping, since you had extra minerals and were maxed for awhile.
Add infestors to stop your ultras from being kited to death. This is probably the single most effective improvement you could make, in terms of amount of effort/training vs benefit.
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Is there any way to beat a maxed Protoss army without Swarmhost?
His army consisted of 5 Collosi, 8 Templar (full energy), 6 Archons, 6 Immortals and a lot of Stalkers + a couple of Sentries.
I hate the Swarmhost bullshit, I was on 6 mining bases spread throughout the map on Frost, Cross Spawns, and went for a 52 Mutalisk remax after losing my Roach Hydra army for almost no damage.
He amoved over me with some storms and that was that. That Protoss won a game after going failed cannonrush into failed immortal all in into make 12 cannons per base on 4 bases and I frustratingly feel like I could only have won with Swarmhosts...
Am I forced to go into Swarm Hosts if my opponent is willing to do nothing at all and play a lame turtle style..? I really, really hate the unit but I don't see any other way... The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk, I had the other main bases saturated, so he would never kill me in time, I suppose... I don't see Broodlords as a viable remax option.
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On May 22 2014 19:45 SC2Toastie wrote:
Is there any way to beat a maxed Protoss army without Swarmhost?
His army consisted of 5 Collosi, 8 Templar (full energy), 6 Archons, 6 Immortals and a lot of Stalkers + a couple of Sentries.
I hate the Swarmhost bullshit, I was on 6 mining bases spread throughout the map on Frost, Cross Spawns, and went for a 52 Mutalisk remax after losing my Roach Hydra army for almost no damage.
He amoved over me with some storms and that was that. That Protoss won a game after going failed cannonrush into failed immortal all in into make 12 cannons per base on 4 bases and I frustratingly feel like I could only have won with Swarmhosts...
Am I forced to go into Swarm Hosts if my opponent is willing to do nothing at all and play a lame turtle style..? I really, really hate the unit but I don't see any other way... The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk, I had the other main bases saturated, so he would never kill me in time, I suppose... I don't see Broodlords as a viable remax option.
Did you engage the Protoss army with your mutas ? I thought the 50+ mutas remax aimed to basetrade ? I'm probably a worse player than you but I'm interested in the anwser to your question as well.
EDIT : oh, silly me, I guess that The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk answer my question.
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On May 22 2014 20:03 SpawnMoarOverlords wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 19:45 SC2Toastie wrote:
Is there any way to beat a maxed Protoss army without Swarmhost?
His army consisted of 5 Collosi, 8 Templar (full energy), 6 Archons, 6 Immortals and a lot of Stalkers + a couple of Sentries.
I hate the Swarmhost bullshit, I was on 6 mining bases spread throughout the map on Frost, Cross Spawns, and went for a 52 Mutalisk remax after losing my Roach Hydra army for almost no damage.
He amoved over me with some storms and that was that. That Protoss won a game after going failed cannonrush into failed immortal all in into make 12 cannons per base on 4 bases and I frustratingly feel like I could only have won with Swarmhosts...
Am I forced to go into Swarm Hosts if my opponent is willing to do nothing at all and play a lame turtle style..? I really, really hate the unit but I don't see any other way... The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk, I had the other main bases saturated, so he would never kill me in time, I suppose... I don't see Broodlords as a viable remax option. Did you engage the Protoss army with your mutas ? I thought the 50+ mutas remax aimed to basetrade ? I'm probably a worse player than you but I'm interested in the anwser to your question as well. EDIT : oh, silly me, I guess that Show nested quote +The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk answer my question.
He was so high on cannons that I didn't consider the basetrade at that point in time
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On May 22 2014 20:18 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 20:03 SpawnMoarOverlords wrote:On May 22 2014 19:45 SC2Toastie wrote:
Is there any way to beat a maxed Protoss army without Swarmhost?
His army consisted of 5 Collosi, 8 Templar (full energy), 6 Archons, 6 Immortals and a lot of Stalkers + a couple of Sentries.
I hate the Swarmhost bullshit, I was on 6 mining bases spread throughout the map on Frost, Cross Spawns, and went for a 52 Mutalisk remax after losing my Roach Hydra army for almost no damage.
He amoved over me with some storms and that was that. That Protoss won a game after going failed cannonrush into failed immortal all in into make 12 cannons per base on 4 bases and I frustratingly feel like I could only have won with Swarmhosts...
Am I forced to go into Swarm Hosts if my opponent is willing to do nothing at all and play a lame turtle style..? I really, really hate the unit but I don't see any other way... The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk, I had the other main bases saturated, so he would never kill me in time, I suppose... I don't see Broodlords as a viable remax option. Did you engage the Protoss army with your mutas ? I thought the 50+ mutas remax aimed to basetrade ? I'm probably a worse player than you but I'm interested in the anwser to your question as well. EDIT : oh, silly me, I guess that The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk answer my question. He was so high on cannons that I didn't consider the basetrade at that point in time
(Perhaps) silly question : did you test 52 mutas vs 12 cannons in the unit tester ? With the bounce effect,II'd bet there's a point where there's no static D that stops a decently upgraded muta flock. (And well, if he turtles it means you have time to prepare the basetrade).
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On May 22 2014 20:23 SpawnMoarOverlords wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 20:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 22 2014 20:03 SpawnMoarOverlords wrote:On May 22 2014 19:45 SC2Toastie wrote:
Is there any way to beat a maxed Protoss army without Swarmhost?
His army consisted of 5 Collosi, 8 Templar (full energy), 6 Archons, 6 Immortals and a lot of Stalkers + a couple of Sentries.
I hate the Swarmhost bullshit, I was on 6 mining bases spread throughout the map on Frost, Cross Spawns, and went for a 52 Mutalisk remax after losing my Roach Hydra army for almost no damage.
He amoved over me with some storms and that was that. That Protoss won a game after going failed cannonrush into failed immortal all in into make 12 cannons per base on 4 bases and I frustratingly feel like I could only have won with Swarmhosts...
Am I forced to go into Swarm Hosts if my opponent is willing to do nothing at all and play a lame turtle style..? I really, really hate the unit but I don't see any other way... The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk, I had the other main bases saturated, so he would never kill me in time, I suppose... I don't see Broodlords as a viable remax option. Did you engage the Protoss army with your mutas ? I thought the 50+ mutas remax aimed to basetrade ? I'm probably a worse player than you but I'm interested in the anwser to your question as well. EDIT : oh, silly me, I guess that The only other thing I could think of (in hindsight) is going for a basetrade with those 52 mutalisk answer my question. He was so high on cannons that I didn't consider the basetrade at that point in time (Perhaps) silly question : did you test 52 mutas vs 12 cannons in the unit tester ? With the bounce effect,II'd bet there's a point where there's no static D that stops a decently upgraded muta flock. (And well, if he turtles it means you have time to prepare the basetrade).
Once again, I didn't consider it, just because he decided to amove over and I didn't have time to think it through. In hindsight, I might have been able to pull off the basetrade. Still doesn't help me with the engagement problem.
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EPT
