On May 13 2014 05:28 hunterxx wrote: I'm a master player having some problem with ZvP. In early game ZvP, can you please mark for me the possible indication of Protoss build when he goes for Gate expand? I often sacrifice 2 overlords at 6 minute mark to see his possible build (stargate, DT, Blink research ... etc). Some of my observations:
-4 gate /+ Mothership moves out at ~5:30: gateway pressure at ~6 -Lots of sentries & no expo at ~9:30 : Sentry Immortal All in - expo later than 4:00: possible DT / stargate harass
I see some pros drone crazy at around 6:00 without scouting whats their opponents doing, so what are their secrets?
I'm actually writing a guide on this particular topic right now (because I know it's the plague of Zergs everywhere). In short, you can get almost everything you need to know from gas timings, little ling pokes, and the presence of a third base, and that's how pros seem to magically "know" what's going on.
Scenario #1:
Your opponent did a gateway expand with a small zealot/stalker/MSC poke and then dropped down a gateway and a forge at their natural. At 6:00, you see the natural gases go down; simultaneously, your second overlord is being sacrificed in the main without seeing anything noteworthy (a couple of pylons and a total of 4 gates including the one in the natural). You poke with your lings at the front around 7:00 and see 3 sentries and the initial stalker and zealot. What can your opponent be doing?
1) It's VERY unlikely he can be doing any kinds of early pressure, so we can continue to drone safely without fear of suddenly being caught by some 7-gate all-in or mantrain.
2) Since we don't have an idea of what kind of tech he's going, we have 4 main options (in order of most likely to least likely): Hidden robo and immortals, dark shrine and DTs, pooling 4 phoenixes off of a stargate opening, or some kind of weird delayed blink attack. In cases like this where we have literally no idea what's coming, it's a good idea to blindly throw down spores at each base around 7:00-7:30. If we get a better scout before then or our opponent reveals their tech before the spores finish, we can always cancel.
3) Keep an eye on the third base. Most dedicated 2-base all-ins are going to move out around 9:00-10:00. If it's any later than this, then it's a delayed 2-base all-in which typically signals a 2-2-2. Against phoenix openings, this last step is very important to ensure that you don't get caught in the trap of making 80 drones only to get rolled over by a delayed 2-base all-in (which will move out about 1-2 minutes later than normal).
Scenario #2:
Your opponent opens gate expand into 2 gates at the natural. At 6:30, he does a 3-gate attack, which you hold off. Luckily, because you're a good Zerg, you scouted the Protoss main with your overlord at 6:00, and but didn't actually get a chance to see anything. At the natural, no gases are taken by 7:00. You spot the thirds and see no expansion, so what could he possibly be doing?
1) You should be expecting pressure rather soon, so make sure your roach warren is up and your side of the map has been swept for proxy pylons.
2) Since you've seen almost no gas units aside from the stalker and sentry that denied you overlord scout, you know there's some outstanding gas somewhere. It's unlikely to be stargate or blink, so it's probably either hidden DTs, immortals, or a big gateway-based attack. Again, we can throw down safety spores around 7:00-7:30 to be safe and we can always cancel them if we spot the correct tech.
3) Again, make sure you're keeping an eye on the third base. If you see these things and react in a totally crazy way but forget about the third, your opponent may have just taken a 6:30 third or something.
I hope this gives some insight maybe? It's difficult, but once you know what you're looking for and create a good checklist, there's no reason why you should ever worry the Protoss is going to do. As far as your own responses, the only thing you need to do is figure out when to cut drones and make units, which is fairly easy to do when you know exactly what's coming and when it will get there .
On May 13 2014 05:29 gongshow41 wrote: Hello Zergies,
When facing a gateway all in when do i start pumping roach, ling? once it is scouted or do I need to hit a certain drone economy before pumping the army?
See above .
You want to figure out when the timings are coming and then just cut at the right number of drones and gases to defend. Most Protoss attacks fall into the following categories:
Warpgate pressure (6:00-7:00) -- Usually just zealot attacks. Off of 2 bases, these attacks aren't really THAT threatening, as they can only really be on 4 gateways max.
Early all-ins/pressure (8:30-9:30) -- This is the territory of the mantrain, the 2-base blink attack, phoenix 4-gates, etc. These all-ins generally require you to cut drones immediately, throw down an emergency roach warren, and defend on 2 gases/~50 drones with just pure roach/ling.
2-base all-ins (9:30-10:30) -- These include the myriad of bullshit all-ins Protosses can throw at you, including soultrain, void ray all-ins, gateway all-ins, etc., etc. Most players cut at ~60-65 drones and pump nothing but roach/ling off of 3-4 gases to defend these (although hydra/ling typically has a slightly higher gas count).
Delayed 2-base all-ins (10:30+) -- These are 2-2-2 and 2-base all-ins after a phoenix opening. You need full 3-base saturation and typically also a spire for emergency corruptors.
A more specific answer to your question is probably that you need to go up to ~60 drones and then just pump roach/ling off of 3 gases. If you do that, you should probably hold off any pure gateway all-in with ease. Figuring out drone counts is pretty easy: it's almost always full 3-base mineral saturation (48 drones) plus whatever drones you need for gas (for instance, 3 gases is 9 drones) -> (48 + 9 = ~60 drones!).
Map: Habitation Station MU: ZvT Opening: 15 Hatch 16 pool
What's the best response to a Terran who floats to the gold and follows up with gasless marine pressure?
I've tried hatching at the gold, but that didn't seem to work out so good. I've tried building a spine straight away (instead of 2 sets of lings) but that didn't work out so good.
It seems really stupid for Terran to float his CC at the start like that, but I keep losing to it so.... I guess I'm the one who's stupid/bad!
On May 13 2014 09:58 Joedaddy wrote: Map: Habitation Station MU: ZvT Opening: 15 Hatch 16 pool
What's the best response to a Terran who floats to the gold and follows up with gasless marine pressure?
I've tried hatching at the gold, but that didn't seem to work out so good. I've tried building a spine straight away (instead of 2 sets of lings) but that didn't work out so good.
It seems really stupid for Terran to float his CC at the start like that, but I keep losing to it so.... I guess I'm the one who's stupid/bad!
You can just baneling bust it for fairly decent results. In general, if your opponent is doing a "1-base" play, you definitely need that early spine crawler and earlier lings. In short, grab a gas, drones and queens up to 26 supply, and then nothing but lings and banes from there on in .
Sometimes they'll go into hellions off of the gold, in which case, it's more beneficial to get roaches than having a high number of banelings.
On May 13 2014 11:07 Saechiis wrote: Is it possible to hold 2 base all-ins with lings or am I shooting myself in the foot trying?
+1/+1 lings will generally stop any pressure before 10:00, but against dedicated 2-base all-ins, you really need the firepower of roaches or hydras as well unless you're planning on sacking the third base and going into a hard muta or SH switch. I would suggest just doing what soO does a lot and opening +1/+1 lings to deny early pressure and then transitioning into roach/hydra for the mid game (with the option of surprise mutas if you want).
Oh yeah. I'm assuming we're talking about ZvP. In ZvT, it's...KIND of possible, depending on the all-in. In ZvZ, it's pretty much your only choice most of the time.
On May 13 2014 11:07 Saechiis wrote: Is it possible to hold 2 base all-ins with lings or am I shooting myself in the foot trying?
no it's not. If the Protoss goes +1attack you will nearly always lose, since he will always have +1 vs 0-0 when his attack hits (and is welltimed). Also anything with a lot of FF is incredibly strong against them.
1-1 upgrade builds are still good, but unless you are up against a gateway expand, and he is absolutly not getting an early forge with it, always get a safety roach warren and do not try to stop the allin with pure zergling, but build as many roaches as possible against it.
I really don't know what to do against immortal all ins. All zerg streamers I watch struggle against it (hendralisk got rekt several time in a row the other day, same for the few koreans I watch). The last game I played against it, I went standard pool double hatch on Overgrowth, droned until 2 bases full saturation and 10 or so drones at my 3rd, then started roaches and hydras. His push was at my 3rd around 10mn30 with 3 immos AND 9 SENTRIES. I had 22 roaches and 54 drones. He just rolled over me even though his forcefields were awful and I was able to snipe sentries. The few hydras came too late, I was supply blocked for a while before he hit me but it shouldn't really have mattered cause it didn't delay the units that were in the engagement (I had spent all my money when the fight happened). I couldn't really scout his stuff despite having seen almost all his main with an ovie, I only saw 4 gases early. Was going hydras a mistake? Are you supposed to only power roach lings? But then doesn't he just kill you with forcefields? Fuck this shit to be honest, this is so frustrating to play against and has been strong as fuck for 3 years.
On May 14 2014 01:04 Nimix wrote: I really don't know what to do against immortal all ins. All zerg streamers I watch struggle against it (hendralisk got rekt several time in a row the other day, same for the few koreans I watch). The last game I played against it, I went standard pool double hatch on Overgrowth, droned until 2 bases full saturation and 10 or so drones at my 3rd, then started roaches and hydras. His push was at my 3rd around 10mn30 with 3 immos AND 9 SENTRIES. I had 22 roaches and 54 drones. He just rolled over me even though his forcefields were awful and I was able to snipe sentries. The few hydras came too late, I was supply blocked for a while before he hit me but it shouldn't really have mattered cause it didn't delay the units that were in the engagement (I had spent all my money when the fight happened). I couldn't really scout his stuff despite having seen almost all his main with an ovie, I only saw 4 gases early. Was going hydras a mistake? Are you supposed to only power roach lings? But then doesn't he just kill you with forcefields? Fuck this shit to be honest, this is so frustrating to play against and has been strong as fuck for 3 years.
On May 14 2014 04:39 Saechiis wrote: Any links too SoO's 1/1 ling build? I don't know where to look.
Nimix, post a replay so we can look at it! Tbh, it's probably that your macro is either slipping or your under committing to your decisions. Everything in Zerg has to be either "BAM blast out 16 drones" or "OH SHIT MAKE NOTHING BUT ROACHES RIGHT NOW" .
On May 14 2014 01:04 Nimix wrote: I really don't know what to do against immortal all ins. All zerg streamers I watch struggle against it (hendralisk got rekt several time in a row the other day, same for the few koreans I watch). The last game I played against it, I went standard pool double hatch on Overgrowth, droned until 2 bases full saturation and 10 or so drones at my 3rd, then started roaches and hydras. His push was at my 3rd around 10mn30 with 3 immos AND 9 SENTRIES. I had 22 roaches and 54 drones. He just rolled over me even though his forcefields were awful and I was able to snipe sentries. The few hydras came too late, I was supply blocked for a while before he hit me but it shouldn't really have mattered cause it didn't delay the units that were in the engagement (I had spent all my money when the fight happened). I couldn't really scout his stuff despite having seen almost all his main with an ovie, I only saw 4 gases early. Was going hydras a mistake? Are you supposed to only power roach lings? But then doesn't he just kill you with forcefields? Fuck this shit to be honest, this is so frustrating to play against and has been strong as fuck for 3 years.
yeah. It's simply like that. If he does it well and you haven't been the greediest possible up to 55 drones, there is little you can do. Your best bet against it is to try to get away with a hatch first, and don't make more than 4 lings early. Anything else, and the Nexus first, no zealot superhardcore, Parting variation that moves out at like 9:00 is going to be just a BO win. Though you shouldn't make roaches and hydras. Imo just roach/ling is the best, though I have seen people win with hydras, but I think it is even tougher since FFs rek them even more and getting them out against the fastest (=strongest) Immo/Sentry Allins is very tricky + there is the chance that he is doing the zealot/immortal and then you are just fucked if you tried to skip roaches.
On May 14 2014 01:04 Nimix wrote: I really don't know what to do against immortal all ins. All zerg streamers I watch struggle against it (hendralisk got rekt several time in a row the other day, same for the few koreans I watch). The last game I played against it, I went standard pool double hatch on Overgrowth, droned until 2 bases full saturation and 10 or so drones at my 3rd, then started roaches and hydras. His push was at my 3rd around 10mn30 with 3 immos AND 9 SENTRIES. I had 22 roaches and 54 drones. He just rolled over me even though his forcefields were awful and I was able to snipe sentries. The few hydras came too late, I was supply blocked for a while before he hit me but it shouldn't really have mattered cause it didn't delay the units that were in the engagement (I had spent all my money when the fight happened). I couldn't really scout his stuff despite having seen almost all his main with an ovie, I only saw 4 gases early. Was going hydras a mistake? Are you supposed to only power roach lings? But then doesn't he just kill you with forcefields? Fuck this shit to be honest, this is so frustrating to play against and has been strong as fuck for 3 years.
yeah. It's simply like that. If he does it well and you haven't been the greediest possible up to 55 drones, there is little you can do. Your best bet against it is to try to get away with a hatch first, and don't make more than 4 lings early. Anything else, and the Nexus first, no zealot superhardcore, Parting variation that moves out at like 9:00 is going to be just a BO win. Though you shouldn't make roaches and hydras. Imo just roach/ling is the best, though I have seen people win with hydras, but I think it is even tougher since FFs rek them even more and getting them out against the fastest (=strongest) Immo/Sentry Allins is very tricky + there is the chance that he is doing the zealot/immortal and then you are just fucked if you tried to skip roaches.
Whoa whoa, let's not make the soultrain out to be this mythical push that's impossible to stop. The PartinG soultrain moves out at 9:30. Soultrain relies heavily on maps with lots of chokes to zone out the Zerg army such as Habitation Station and...well, that's the only really good soultrain map right now. And there's a pretty obvious difference between zealot/immortal and immortal/sentry, not to mention the incredibly different times that they hit. Hydra/ling IS possible to beat soultrain, but you have to buy a lot of time with your first group of lings upwards of about ~60 seconds.
Also, you really need more like 60 drones in order to effectively hold out against immortal/sentry (3-4 gases + full 3 base mineral saturation). Cutting at like 55 drones might seem better because you can get out an extra 3-4 roaches for the initial push, but you'll end up not being able to produce enough as time goes on.
On May 14 2014 01:04 Nimix wrote: I really don't know what to do against immortal all ins. All zerg streamers I watch struggle against it (hendralisk got rekt several time in a row the other day, same for the few koreans I watch). The last game I played against it, I went standard pool double hatch on Overgrowth, droned until 2 bases full saturation and 10 or so drones at my 3rd, then started roaches and hydras. His push was at my 3rd around 10mn30 with 3 immos AND 9 SENTRIES. I had 22 roaches and 54 drones. He just rolled over me even though his forcefields were awful and I was able to snipe sentries. The few hydras came too late, I was supply blocked for a while before he hit me but it shouldn't really have mattered cause it didn't delay the units that were in the engagement (I had spent all my money when the fight happened). I couldn't really scout his stuff despite having seen almost all his main with an ovie, I only saw 4 gases early. Was going hydras a mistake? Are you supposed to only power roach lings? But then doesn't he just kill you with forcefields? Fuck this shit to be honest, this is so frustrating to play against and has been strong as fuck for 3 years.
yeah. It's simply like that. If he does it well and you haven't been the greediest possible up to 55 drones, there is little you can do. Your best bet against it is to try to get away with a hatch first, and don't make more than 4 lings early. Anything else, and the Nexus first, no zealot superhardcore, Parting variation that moves out at like 9:00 is going to be just a BO win. Though you shouldn't make roaches and hydras. Imo just roach/ling is the best, though I have seen people win with hydras, but I think it is even tougher since FFs rek them even more and getting them out against the fastest (=strongest) Immo/Sentry Allins is very tricky + there is the chance that he is doing the zealot/immortal and then you are just fucked if you tried to skip roaches.
Whoa whoa, let's not make the soultrain out to be this mythical push that's impossible to stop. The PartinG soultrain moves out at 9:30. Soultrain relies heavily on maps with lots of chokes to zone out the Zerg army such as Habitation Station and...well, that's the only really good soultrain map right now. And there's a pretty obvious difference between zealot/immortal and immortal/sentry, not to mention the incredibly different times that they hit. Hydra/ling IS possible to beat soultrain, but you have to buy a lot of time with your first group of lings upwards of about ~60 seconds.
Also, you really need more like 60 drones in order to effectively hold out against immortal/sentry (3-4 gases + full 3 base mineral saturation). Cutting at like 55 drones might seem better because you can get out an extra 3-4 roaches for the initial push, but you'll end up not being able to produce enough as time goes on.
This is how you stop the Soultrain:
exactly 55drones. The exact same number Ret mentions too in one of last years Meta.
"Moving out" is a stretchable term. Parting moves most of his units to the front of his base at 8:50 and walks out the door with his 3 Immortals at 9:05. Which is pretty much the exact same timing he uses in
On May 14 2014 01:04 Nimix wrote: I really don't know what to do against immortal all ins. All zerg streamers I watch struggle against it (hendralisk got rekt several time in a row the other day, same for the few koreans I watch). The last game I played against it, I went standard pool double hatch on Overgrowth, droned until 2 bases full saturation and 10 or so drones at my 3rd, then started roaches and hydras. His push was at my 3rd around 10mn30 with 3 immos AND 9 SENTRIES. I had 22 roaches and 54 drones. He just rolled over me even though his forcefields were awful and I was able to snipe sentries. The few hydras came too late, I was supply blocked for a while before he hit me but it shouldn't really have mattered cause it didn't delay the units that were in the engagement (I had spent all my money when the fight happened). I couldn't really scout his stuff despite having seen almost all his main with an ovie, I only saw 4 gases early. Was going hydras a mistake? Are you supposed to only power roach lings? But then doesn't he just kill you with forcefields? Fuck this shit to be honest, this is so frustrating to play against and has been strong as fuck for 3 years.
yeah. It's simply like that. If he does it well and you haven't been the greediest possible up to 55 drones, there is little you can do. Your best bet against it is to try to get away with a hatch first, and don't make more than 4 lings early. Anything else, and the Nexus first, no zealot superhardcore, Parting variation that moves out at like 9:00 is going to be just a BO win. Though you shouldn't make roaches and hydras. Imo just roach/ling is the best, though I have seen people win with hydras, but I think it is even tougher since FFs rek them even more and getting them out against the fastest (=strongest) Immo/Sentry Allins is very tricky + there is the chance that he is doing the zealot/immortal and then you are just fucked if you tried to skip roaches.
Whoa whoa, let's not make the soultrain out to be this mythical push that's impossible to stop. The PartinG soultrain moves out at 9:30. Soultrain relies heavily on maps with lots of chokes to zone out the Zerg army such as Habitation Station and...well, that's the only really good soultrain map right now. And there's a pretty obvious difference between zealot/immortal and immortal/sentry, not to mention the incredibly different times that they hit. Hydra/ling IS possible to beat soultrain, but you have to buy a lot of time with your first group of lings upwards of about ~60 seconds.
Also, you really need more like 60 drones in order to effectively hold out against immortal/sentry (3-4 gases + full 3 base mineral saturation). Cutting at like 55 drones might seem better because you can get out an extra 3-4 roaches for the initial push, but you'll end up not being able to produce enough as time goes on.
Not exactly sure what the difference in HotS is (probably maps), but you can definitely defend with 60 drones (in fact, hydra/ling defends with 66 drones, full 3 base saturation). It's just a lot harder for Protoss to walk across the map super confidently like this anymore because of how strong certain responses can be.
Long story short: this all-in isn't NEARLY as terrifying as it used to be. There are several new options in HotS and most maps, aside from Yeonsu, don't really favor soultrains anyway; the net result is that it's pretty easy to defend as long as you know what's up and your macro is staying strong.
On May 14 2014 20:48 Karpfen wrote: God, both Life and PartinG are damn sick to watch.
Also, seconded on this statement. These VoDs remind me of the how sick some things in WoL were .
Parting moving out at 8:40 (from a gateway expand) in HotS, hitting roro right before (some of) the (fastest) hydralisks spawning from 3different bases can join up.
Creator moving out at 9:05 in HotS.
I'm not saying that this build is overpowered (though I don't think any allin should be as powerful as this one), but your reaction has to be sharper than "go 66drones and hydra/ling stops it". That's not how it works if you face a strong opponent. By no means did I say you cannot stop it with hydralisks, I'm saying speedroaches are better at stopping it imo. Also with hydras it is very hard to stop the 2immortal/2colossus allin which looks just like the immortal allin at the timing you have to decide between hydras and roaches, unless the Protoss puts down the support bay right under a Slowerlord. And 55drones seems to be a number progamers have been trying to hit against it, so I'm not questioning it too much since it seems to work. That it is possible to defend on 60drones or maybe circumstancial even more, sure, nothing in this game is that tight. That will happen naturally anyways sometimes.
True that it is much easie to defend on a lot of the current maps, but Habitation Station, Overgrowth and 2/3 spawns on Frost are still quite decent for it and apart from stupidly large maps like Alterzim, it is always one of the strongest 2base plays a Protoss can do. And when you have made a small BO/scouting or macro mistake early on (like too early zergling speed), it's often close to unstoppable against a good opponent.
Hey thanks for all the answers. I'm not going to provide a replay because it would be a waste of your time, as I can point my macro mistakes out myself; it was more a question about how to beat it optimally in theory, as I was very unsure about that, because of the number of sentries basically meaning you can't engage in a choke ever. I got what I was searching for in your posts, thanks a lot!
Hi I'm just switching to Zerg (from Terran) and I had a few quick questions..
Vs Toss do you always get speedlings or are they only to hold early gateway/immortal pressure/timings?
When doing 3 hatch before pool do you plant the 3rd hatch at a certain supply or just as the minerals come?
Vs a bio Terran doing standard reaper/hellion pressure expand do I get the baneling nest before of after lair? And should I take gas after pool and hatch to get speed asap?
And last one, how many queens do I want vs Toss when I'm on 3 bases?
On May 15 2014 14:10 Survivor61316 wrote: Hi I'm just switching to Zerg (from Terran) and I had a few quick questions..
Vs Toss do you always get speedlings or are they only to hold early gateway/immortal pressure/timings?
Zergling speed is a curcial upgrade for Zerg in all matchups, I wouldn't go without it. It is the reason why Zerg can deny early expansions better than any other race and its mere presence forces the opponent to play a little less greedy. Nevertheless, there are scenarios in which you can skip it. Which is any time you get a fast roach warren for defense and do not plan to go down the melee route anyways. Against Protoss in particular, I think it is OK to skip zergling speed pretty much regardless of what he does, if you place your roach warren accordingly.
On May 15 2014 14:10 Survivor61316 wrote: When doing 3 hatch before pool do you plant the 3rd hatch at a certain supply or just as the minerals come?
I'm hardly ever doing that build, but I think it is something like 15hatch and then 16hatch or 17hatch.
On May 15 2014 14:10 Survivor61316 wrote: Vs a bio Terran doing standard reaper/hellion pressure expand do I get the baneling nest before of after lair? And should I take gas after pool and hatch to get speed asap?
There are three ways to go speed against Terran: - 15h/16g/15p and get speed asap when the pool finishes (drones out of gas afterwards). You are then defending with ~3queens and can punish the Terran if he doesn't withdraw his reapers, so that you are free to build the third and defend it with speedlings. - get the gas after the pool before or after you built your second overlord (~17-18supply). Which is a more economical variant of the above and should still be good enough to secure your third with speed, but the Terran is hardly at risk of losing reapers or having to withdraw due to an early speedling counter. - early gasless and get a gas between 25-30supply or double gas even later. This is a really delayed speed, very economical and you mainly rely on 4queens+ for early defense. Getting a third can be harder but your economy is in a really good spot afterwards.
Baneling nest - unless you scout something 2basish with lots of barracks - is in my opinion best started a little after the lair is started, so that you can get baneling speed right when it finishes.
On May 15 2014 14:10 Survivor61316 wrote: And last one, how many queens do I want vs Toss when I'm on 3 bases?
Against FFE, queens are low priority, so only get 3 and maybe a 4th later on unless you scout a stargate (in which case 4-6, sometimes even more is fine) Against gateway expands, queenplay can be more useful, but it is still rather rare. 3-4 is enough.
EPT
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