|
Hey guys!
I'm sure this has been discussed many times but can't see it mentioned in Blades guide nor in the first post on this thread so just thought I'd ask what you guys do.
In my case I normally go for 15 hatch, 15 pool vs T and P nowadays(Thanks to advice here ^_^) That means my two queens pop at the same time, what should I do in initially with the first energy?
Before I used to spread creep with my first queens without feeling that it really hindered my drone production (probably because I took a third too early, that I didn't benefit from straight away anyway). But now that my builds are getting a little more crisp and my macro ramps up faster (partially from going for the 40 drones mark @ 7mins that is mentioned in the post about Zerg mechanics) I start to sense that it limits me.
What do you guys do with your first couple of queens, I'm starting to gravitate towards 1 inject at main 1 creep tumour at exp, is that a good idea?
|
United States4883 Posts
On May 05 2014 18:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm sure this has been discussed many times but can't see it mentioned in Blades guide nor in the first post on this thread so just thought I'd ask what you guys do.
In my case I normally go for 15 hatch, 15 pool vs T and P nowadays(Thanks to advice here ^_^) That means my two queens pop at the same time, what should I do in initially with the first energy?
Before I used to spread creep with my first queens without feeling that it really hindered my drone production (probably because I took a third too early, that I didn't benefit from straight away anyway). But now that my builds are getting a little more crisp and my macro ramps up faster (partially from going for the 40 drones mark @ 7mins that is mentioned in the post about Zerg mechanics) I start to sense that it limits me.
What do you guys do with your first couple of queens, I'm starting to gravitate towards 1 inject at main 1 creep tumour at exp, is that a good idea?
It's highly variable, depending on the matchup, how early you plan on taking your third, etc. In ZvP, I usually go fast triple hatch (before queens), so my general rule is creep tumors first vs. gateway expand, injects first vs. FFE, though sometimes I do a mixture. I don't think it affects you as much in ZvP because you have so much free space to work with until ~7:00. In ZvT, I open up with an early speed (15h16g15p), and I found out that dropping a tumor at my natural instead of injecting works out a little bit better; opening gasless, however, I think it's better to double inject. ZvZ, I think injecting always takes precedence over creep tumors.
Those are my thoughts!
|
About a month back I asked about holding 14/14 pressure in ZvZ. Advice given here helped me to not immediately die to them, and bumped my ZvZ win rate from the 30s to the 40s, but I'm having a hard time telling if I'm ahead or behind after the pressure is over.
I'm newly minted Platinum (bumped up with the ladder adjustment from last week).
This wasn't up against 14/14, but similar situation where opponent applies early pressure and I can't tell if I'm ahead/behind/even after the pressure is over.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4998710 (ID is OrthoStice)
Pressure is over around 7:15. He got absolutely nothing for 8 banes and I've only made 4 lings w two turned into banes all game so I feel like I should be way, way ahead. He comes by with another set of lings so I feel even more ahead.
I play assuming I'm ahead and when I walk over with roaches around 12:50 we're basically even roaches even upgrades. (I then don't get it through my head that I screwed up somewhere and continue to assume I'm ahead and only partially drone my third and things go downhill).
Looking at the replay at 7:15 I am ahead 9 drones but he's making an additional 7 and I'm making none.
So what did I do wrong here? Do I really just have to drone more while I know the pressure is coming? I mean I think so, I do have floating larva, but it'd be nice to be told yeah that's totally it. Did I screw up before the pressure, after, or both? Thanks for the help!
|
On May 06 2014 13:34 LyleGately wrote:About a month back I asked about holding 14/14 pressure in ZvZ. Advice given here helped me to not immediately die to them, and bumped my ZvZ win rate from the 30s to the 40s, but I'm having a hard time telling if I'm ahead or behind after the pressure is over. I'm newly minted Platinum (bumped up with the ladder adjustment from last week). This wasn't up against 14/14, but similar situation where opponent applies early pressure and I can't tell if I'm ahead/behind/even after the pressure is over. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4998710 (ID is OrthoStice) Pressure is over around 7:15. He got absolutely nothing for 8 banes and I've only made 4 lings w two turned into banes all game so I feel like I should be way, way ahead. He comes by with another set of lings so I feel even more ahead. I play assuming I'm ahead and when I walk over with roaches around 12:50 we're basically even roaches even upgrades. (I then don't get it through my head that I screwed up somewhere and continue to assume I'm ahead and only partially drone my third and things go downhill). Looking at the replay at 7:15 I am ahead 9 drones but he's making an additional 7 and I'm making none. So what did I do wrong here? Do I really just have to drone more while I know the pressure is coming? I mean I think so, I do have floating larva, but it'd be nice to be told yeah that's totally it. Did I screw up before the pressure, after, or both? Thanks for the help!
I am not able to watch the replay because my computer is no wanting to behave but from looking at the GG tracker and the notes maybe I can share some general ideas that may help.
The big limiting reasource in ling bling attacks or pressures in ZvZ is larva not just minerals and gas. This applies to both the agressor and the defendor, and to both to army and drone production. So from looking at the econ stats on GG tracker I notice that yest you went up by 500 ish reasources around 7mins, but you are behind in larva. Your natural was later (maybe 1-3 larva slower hard to tell without watching replay) as well as 1 enject behind, so just rounding thats roughly 6-10 larva you are now behind which @ 7 mins is a big deal and from what I can tell this is part of what allowed him to slowly cathc up to that 500 reasources without you noticing.
Also all your Economic benchmarks are behind his. 30Second slower natural (least important), 1 min later 3rd, 1 min later 1base saturation.
You also took way longer to reach 2 bas saturation(4:22 + 9:48 ~ 14:10 vs his 3:50 + 5:00 ~ 9:00) - Most important
Overall yes you had an advantage in reasources lost but he also had an advantage, larva....He did a better job transfering his advantage into astrong Economy than you did and he was able to get ahead and take the win.
Heres some smarter people saying smarter things
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/300184-how-to-win-the-eta-concept
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Day(9)_Podcasts#Hallmarks_of_Expert_Play_Series_.28HOP.29
-There is a section on playing with the advantage 2.2.1 and 3.4 (HOP #1)
hope this heps
|
Is there an exact build order guide for the 12 minute Roach max? can this still be done in HOTS?
|
On May 07 2014 00:22 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Is there an exact build order guide for the 12 minute Roach max? can this still be done in HOTS?
In lower leagues, sure. It's a good way to improve your ZvP macro and has nice benchmarks. However, even at the end of WoL Protoss had learned to deal with it, so with MSC around, it's pretty shitty above...plat or so. The opening is the standard vs FFE but it's better to do other things than just make pure roach/ling when you have your 3 base mining.
|
Is there a reason why people make armor upgrades for ground when playing against mech? It seems to me that unless you are fighting a lot of banshees or hellions, the difference is close to zero.
|
On May 07 2014 03:31 Tuczniak wrote:
Is there a reason why people make armor upgrades for ground when playing against mech? It seems to me that unless you are fighting a lot of banshees or hellions, the difference is close to zero. the biggest difference i can think of is that +2 sieged tanks will take an extra shot to kill +2 armor hydras. but i'm not an expert on upgrade math. maybe someone else can give a more detailed answer
|
United States4883 Posts
On May 07 2014 00:22 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Is there an exact build order guide for the 12 minute Roach max? can this still be done in HOTS?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/324733-stephano-style-zvp-the-12-minute-max-out
It's essentially triple hatch -> 60 drones with 3-4 gases -> pump nothing but roach or roach/ling. This particular build order is for playing against FFE, but playing against gate expand still converges at the same point eventually (3 bases, 60 drones, 3-4 gases), just with a few more considerations between 6:00-10:00.
On May 07 2014 03:31 Tuczniak wrote:
Is there a reason why people make armor upgrades for ground when playing against mech? It seems to me that unless you are fighting a lot of banshees or hellions, the difference is close to zero.
I'm not sure if your question is "Why do players prioritize ground armor upgrades over attack?" or "Why do people get ground armor upgrades at all?" To answer the first question, I rarely, if ever, see anything besides double upgrades in ZvT. For the second one, the answer is: Because upgrades are good, that's why.
Most of the time we either see:
- Dedicated roach/hydra/viper pressure from 10:00 onwards
- Mutalisks into burrowed roach play, or
- Mutalisks into SH
In the first example, upgrades a key necessity in order to make that style work at all against anything. For any kind of mutalisk play, you typically have tons of minerals to expand with, which translates to having extra gas, which means you can easily afford mutalisks, double air ups, and double ground ups, as well as have enough gas for your SH transition. There's not really much of a reason to skip ground upgrades if you already have the evo chamber and plenty of gas to spare.
|
On May 07 2014 04:09 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 03:31 Tuczniak wrote:
Is there a reason why people make armor upgrades for ground when playing against mech? It seems to me that unless you are fighting a lot of banshees or hellions, the difference is close to zero. I'm not sure if your question is "Why do players prioritize ground armor upgrades over attack?" or "Why do people get ground armor upgrades at all?" I meant getting just "+ranged" or "+ranged and +melee" seems better. I prefer later one, because I mix lings against mech. And I don't think you have that much gass, I think it's better to have 675m/675g for something else than +3 ground carapace.
|
United States4883 Posts
On May 07 2014 05:26 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 04:09 SC2John wrote:On May 07 2014 03:31 Tuczniak wrote:
Is there a reason why people make armor upgrades for ground when playing against mech? It seems to me that unless you are fighting a lot of banshees or hellions, the difference is close to zero. I'm not sure if your question is "Why do players prioritize ground armor upgrades over attack?" or "Why do people get ground armor upgrades at all?" I meant getting just "+ranged" or "+ranged and +melee" seems better. I prefer later one, because I mix lings against mech. And I don't think you have that much gass, I think it's better to have 675m/675g for something else than +3 ground carapace.
I guess it all depends on your game plan and how you plan on playing. Personally, I don't see any reason NOT to get it unless you absolutely need 3 extra mutalisks for a timing or something. Otherwise, muta/SH play just banks more and more money all game long, and you're never really at a deficit of gas, and that's how I play it. If you play it more aggressively with a lot of multi-tasking or something like that, I can kind of see why going +ranged and +melee would make sense.
Although, I'm pretty sure +1 carapace is super important for lings against tanks, if I remember correctly.
|
On May 07 2014 05:41 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 05:26 Tuczniak wrote:On May 07 2014 04:09 SC2John wrote:On May 07 2014 03:31 Tuczniak wrote:
Is there a reason why people make armor upgrades for ground when playing against mech? It seems to me that unless you are fighting a lot of banshees or hellions, the difference is close to zero. I'm not sure if your question is "Why do players prioritize ground armor upgrades over attack?" or "Why do people get ground armor upgrades at all?" I meant getting just "+ranged" or "+ranged and +melee" seems better. I prefer later one, because I mix lings against mech. And I don't think you have that much gass, I think it's better to have 675m/675g for something else than +3 ground carapace. Although, I'm pretty sure +1 carapace is super important for lings against tanks, if I remember correctly. The difference in this case is that +1 carapace lings don't get one shoted by +0 sieged tanks. But +1 tanks one shot +3 carapace lings. This was only important in WoL with marine/tank timings.
|
What are you supposed to do against a Colossus-Voidray protoss player? Colossus wreck hydralisks, (which are basically the only way to counter mass VR, right?), and VRs seem to butcher literally everything else.
|
Hey all. Quick question: what`s the splash damage range on widow mines and seeker missiles? Any tips for dodging seekers?
|
On May 09 2014 01:52 OtherWorld wrote:
What are you supposed to do against a Colossus-Voidray protoss player? Colossus wreck hydralisks, (which are basically the only way to counter mass VR, right?), and VRs seem to butcher literally everything else.
the primary counter to mass VR is fungal growth, not hydras, and the usual counter to colo-VR is ether hydra-viper or corruptor-viper. if he's not adding templar to his colo-VR ball, he should never be able to win after you get vipers, as he will never be able to stop your pulls. so you keep pulling his units one by one until he has nothing left.
if you insist on roach-hydra (or if that's all you have and you absolutely have to make a stand), make sure you do as large as possible of a flank, and while on creep. like a three-sided flank. or else you are balled up for colo lasers, and too few of your hydras are in range to do any damamge. without flanking, it's basically a scaled-up, higher-tech version of trickling in lings against stimmed marines. whereas if you flank well, you don't instantly die, and the faster speed on creep ensures that you get in range fast enough to actually get in some dps. you'll then need to follow up with an old-school remax to wipe him out, or at least not die.
i'd be happy to look at a replay if you have one.
|
On May 09 2014 14:16 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:52 OtherWorld wrote:
What are you supposed to do against a Colossus-Voidray protoss player? Colossus wreck hydralisks, (which are basically the only way to counter mass VR, right?), and VRs seem to butcher literally everything else. the primary counter to mass VR is fungal growth, not hydras, and the usual counter to colo-VR is ether hydra-viper or corruptor-viper. if he's not adding templar to his colo-VR ball, he should never be able to win after you get vipers, as he will never be able to stop your pulls. so you keep pulling his units one by one until he has nothing left. if you insist on roach-hydra (or if that's all you have and you absolutely have to make a stand), make sure you do as large as possible of a flank, and while on creep. like a three-sided flank. or else you are balled up for colo lasers, and too few of your hydras are in range to do any damamge. without flanking, it's basically a scaled-up, higher-tech version of trickling in lings against stimmed marines. whereas if you flank well, you don't instantly die, and the faster speed on creep ensures that you get in range fast enough to actually get in some dps. you'll then need to follow up with an old-school remax to wipe him out, or at least not die. i'd be happy to look at a replay if you have one.
Thank you, I'll try that !
|
In late game ZvP, what is a strong remax comp after trading Swarmhost and Corruptor for his deathball push? Playing the "Stephano" Turtle swarmhost corruptor viper until forcing him to trade. Particularly if they are using the mobility of warpins to get around?
|
United States4883 Posts
On May 12 2014 10:32 Greenhit wrote:
In late game ZvP, what is a strong remax comp after trading Swarmhost and Corruptor for his deathball push? Playing the "Stephano" Turtle swarmhost corruptor viper until forcing him to trade. Particularly if they are using the mobility of warpins to get around?
It always depends on the economy and what you expect your opponent to remax on. You really shouldn't ever trade the Swarm Hosts if you can, but if you lose them in the process, it's really important to get either more SH back onto the field or some roaches in order to hold mass zealot warpins at bay.
The mutalisk remax is typically a strong one, but you can also do an ultra/corruptor remax if you think he's going to commit (or has already committed) heavily to phoenixes.
|
I'm a master player having some problem with ZvP. In early game ZvP, can you please mark for me the possible indication of Protoss build when he goes for Gate expand? I often sacrifice 2 overlords at 6 minute mark to see his possible build (stargate, DT, Blink research ... etc). Some of my observations:
-4 gate /+ Mothership moves out at ~5:30: gateway pressure at ~6
-Lots of sentries & no expo at ~9:30 : Sentry Immortal All in
- expo later than 4:00: possible DT / stargate harass
I see some pros drone crazy at around 6:00 without scouting whats their opponents doing, so what are their secrets?
|
Hello Zergies,
When facing a gateway all in when do i start pumping roach, ling?
once it is scouted or do I need to hit a certain drone economy before pumping the army?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
