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The other night on GSL tastosis seemed quite confused during a ZvZ. I can't remember the match up but I think it had soO.
One zerg (soO I think) went gas first. Upon scouting the other zerg going gasless he did not take speed but just left the 100 gas sitting in his bank, skipped speed and went for a lair a bit later on. Now tastosis was unsure whether it was a mistake or not.
My question is one of clarification; in my opinion it was simply soO reacting to a gasless build, deciding to not get speed as it isn't necessary and go heavy drone production instead. Is this the case or have I analysed this incorrectly and was something else going on?
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On June 03 2014 21:31 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 11:36 learning88 wrote:
Thank you SC2John for the help. So I should just take all drones off gas, keep making Queens at nat, then once ling speed finishes, I can take 2nd gas, put drones back on gas, and start double evo? Can I still take a 6:00 3rd? You can keep a drone on gas until ~100 gas has been accumulated and then put the other two back on gas (+ take second geyser + evos). Or you can probably just do what you're suggesting and that should still work out economically, although you need to delay your evos until ~100 gas or you'll have them way too early. You still get to start your third at 6:15-6:30. You kind of definitely NEED to start it in that time window because once the hellions are out it becomes substantially harder to take a third base if it isn't already building. Also, what the guy above me said. Against hellion/reaper, it's really good to spread your overlords to cover all the main pathways and get vision of the reaper/hellion movement. Then around 9:30-10:00, you generally move them to safer locations as marine pushes start to happen. This is just a good technique that allows you to get your queens in position and deflect the hellions a lot more effectively. Actually, I'm gonna write out the BO so it's explicitly clear: + Show Spoiler +9 overlord
15 hatch
16 pool
17 gas
17 overlord
@100% pool -> queen x2, zerglings x2
@100 gas -> pull 2 drones off gas, one drone left in geyser
@100% queens -> queen x1 (3rd queen)
@6:00 optional ling swell (first larva pops off and speed finishes)
@100% queen -> queen x1 (4th queen)
@6:15-6:30 -> 3rd hatchery
@100% queen -> queen x1 (5th queen)
@~100 gas -> drones back on gas, 2nd gas, and double evo
6th queen + ling swell + spine crawler
+1/+1 -> next 100 gas to lair -> next 50 gas to baneling nest -> burrow/overlord speed etc., etc. It's really pretty simple: just do what you're doing but continue to produce queens constantly out of the natural expo until you have 6 total.
Thank you so much for the thorough explanation. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to explain the BO so well!!
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On June 04 2014 08:16 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 07:38 MajorBiscuit wrote:
OK people I am back with more questions. I have just been promoted to gold (yay me) and it seems that bunker rushing is very popular in this league. Now I have failed to stop this twice already and I have only played 3 matches since promotion. I usually go 15 pool 16 hatch but with this build I can't get zerglings fast enough to prevent the bunker from going down. The problem is that I don't scout it early enough, I usually get to scout my opponent's base at 15 supply by which time he already has marines out and starts building a bunker. Any help is appreciated. On most smaller maps like Habitation Station, close positions Waystation, and even Overgrowth, your first overlord tells you all the information you need. The first overlord is aimed directly at your opponent's main ramp to look for reaper opening vs. CC first vs. 1rax FE. If there's no barracks at the wall, you check the natural. If there's no CC in the natural and no barracks at the wall, then the barracks are proxies (or your opponent is really bad). As soon as you scout these two things, pull ~10 drones from your main to your natural and defend with them while you buy time for lings and a queen/spine at the natural. This is the standard way to hold a proxy rax. If you're not comfortable with relying on this twitch scout, you can always 1) scout on 10 with a drone on 2-player maps or 2) leave your second overlord over your natural hatchery before moving it into position to spot for those bunkers. EDIT: Defending with drones: - 4 drones on the half-finished bunker
- 1 drone on the SCV building the bunker
- The rest chasing marines down...~3 drones per marine
- Mineral-walk injured drones back to the natural mineral line
Thank you very much for your help. I just defeated a terran who bunker rushed me.
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So i don´t have a question just for Zerg. If i watch streams and for exapmle in ZvZ a 10P Bane.
The player who gets attacked splits all his drones so the Banes do not connect and than he just selects ALL idle workers at once and gets them back to work.
How do you do that?
The idle worker key is just for one worker.
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On June 05 2014 00:50 EXRNaRa wrote:
So i don´t have a question just for Zerg. If i watch streams and for exapmle in ZvZ a 10P Bane.
The player who gets attacked splits all his drones so the Banes do not connect and than he just selects ALL idle workers at once and gets them back to work.
How do you do that?
The idle worker key is just for one worker.
with pressing ctrl
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On June 04 2014 05:47 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 02:21 chairmobile wrote:
Brief question here.
I'm currently favoring gasless roach play in ZvZ, and had a question about compositions in roach-roach wars.
I've been going pure roach, which tends to lose to roach-hydra, so my question is: why do korean pros go basically pure roach in zvz when roach hydra is better and not significantly slower?
I've started going roach bane which is pretty awesome, as banes are super supply efficient compared to roaches and they wreck my opponent's hydras. Obviously this isn't a sustainable solution when infestors come out.
Should I just be going roach hydra? Roach/hydra is a bit more of a defensive, "sit back and macro" composition while pure roach is a lot more aggressive and forces you to constantly be active with counterattacks, burrow roach attacks, and army pressure. Pure roach more naturally transitions into roach/infestor because infestors are actually more useful more quickly than hydras. Fungal also allows you to get better engagement angles and retreat from the higher firepower roach/hydra army if necessary. As far as I know, roach/bane should only be used for 2-base all-ins or to deal with turtle SH play. Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 03:56 Zervas wrote:Just dropping this in here. I made a Mindmap about basic Zerg Strategies/Compositions/hints. It is still at the beginning and will grow im different areas, but there should already be some useful things in there for people  . Comments, criticism, new ideas and suggestions are highly appreciated! This might answer a couple of questions fot youguys: Teamliquid Thread with Mindmap( I hope that it is allowed to post it here :S ) It's fine dropping this in here. Thanks for the contributions! If you ever want to spend some time answering questions or helping out in this thread, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it .
Thanks John! Great thread you have going btw.
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On June 04 2014 11:19 ThePastor wrote:
The other night on GSL tastosis seemed quite confused during a ZvZ. I can't remember the match up but I think it had soO.
One zerg (soO I think) went gas first. Upon scouting the other zerg going gasless he did not take speed but just left the 100 gas sitting in his bank, skipped speed and went for a lair a bit later on. Now tastosis was unsure whether it was a mistake or not.
My question is one of clarification; in my opinion it was simply soO reacting to a gasless build, deciding to not get speed as it isn't necessary and go heavy drone production instead. Is this the case or have I analysed this incorrectly and was something else going on?
It was poor attention by the casters. He actually started speed and then cancelled it upon seeing macro play out of his opponent, opting instead to use the gas for faster upgrades/lair later on and use the minerals for drones for the time being.
Your analysis (I believe) is exactly correct.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 05 2014 01:09 chairmobile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 11:19 ThePastor wrote:
The other night on GSL tastosis seemed quite confused during a ZvZ. I can't remember the match up but I think it had soO.
One zerg (soO I think) went gas first. Upon scouting the other zerg going gasless he did not take speed but just left the 100 gas sitting in his bank, skipped speed and went for a lair a bit later on. Now tastosis was unsure whether it was a mistake or not.
My question is one of clarification; in my opinion it was simply soO reacting to a gasless build, deciding to not get speed as it isn't necessary and go heavy drone production instead. Is this the case or have I analysed this incorrectly and was something else going on? It was poor attention by the casters. He actually started speed and then cancelled it upon seeing macro play out of his opponent, opting instead to use the gas for faster upgrades/lair later on and use the minerals for drones for the time being. Your analysis (I believe) is exactly correct.
I haven't seen the game, but my analysis is that it was somewhat of a mind game. Usually in that scenario you use your advantage of earlier speed to take an earlier third and prevent your opponent from taking one at the disadvantage of having a weaker economy early in the mid game; it seems like what soO did was simply take a third and drone heavily, relying on the idea that his opponent wouldn't take a third as quickly for fear of it being run over by speedlings.
For ladder and general uses, I would discourage heavily against doing this. If your opponent notices you don't have speed and just takes an early third anyway, you've thrown away the one advantage you had in the game and you're back to even or behind.
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On June 05 2014 01:09 chairmobile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 11:19 ThePastor wrote:
The other night on GSL tastosis seemed quite confused during a ZvZ. I can't remember the match up but I think it had soO.
One zerg (soO I think) went gas first. Upon scouting the other zerg going gasless he did not take speed but just left the 100 gas sitting in his bank, skipped speed and went for a lair a bit later on. Now tastosis was unsure whether it was a mistake or not.
My question is one of clarification; in my opinion it was simply soO reacting to a gasless build, deciding to not get speed as it isn't necessary and go heavy drone production instead. Is this the case or have I analysed this incorrectly and was something else going on? It was poor attention by the casters. He actually started speed and then cancelled it upon seeing macro play out of his opponent, opting instead to use the gas for faster upgrades/lair later on and use the minerals for drones for the time being. Your analysis (I believe) is exactly correct.
That's indeed what happened. It was TRUE by the way, not soO. 
On June 05 2014 00:50 EXRNaRa wrote:
So i don´t have a question just for Zerg. If i watch streams and for exapmle in ZvZ a 10P Bane.
The player who gets attacked splits all his drones so the Banes do not connect and than he just selects ALL idle workers at once and gets them back to work.
How do you do that?
The idle worker key is just for one worker.
There is no 'select all idle workers' button. The only thing that is happening is (as mentioned already) the ctrl+click worker, so that you select all workers on screen.
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On June 05 2014 17:37 Anacreor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 01:09 chairmobile wrote:On June 04 2014 11:19 ThePastor wrote:
The other night on GSL tastosis seemed quite confused during a ZvZ. I can't remember the match up but I think it had soO.
One zerg (soO I think) went gas first. Upon scouting the other zerg going gasless he did not take speed but just left the 100 gas sitting in his bank, skipped speed and went for a lair a bit later on. Now tastosis was unsure whether it was a mistake or not.
My question is one of clarification; in my opinion it was simply soO reacting to a gasless build, deciding to not get speed as it isn't necessary and go heavy drone production instead. Is this the case or have I analysed this incorrectly and was something else going on? It was poor attention by the casters. He actually started speed and then cancelled it upon seeing macro play out of his opponent, opting instead to use the gas for faster upgrades/lair later on and use the minerals for drones for the time being. Your analysis (I believe) is exactly correct. That's indeed what happened. It was TRUE by the way, not soO. Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 00:50 EXRNaRa wrote:
So i don´t have a question just for Zerg. If i watch streams and for exapmle in ZvZ a 10P Bane.
The player who gets attacked splits all his drones so the Banes do not connect and than he just selects ALL idle workers at once and gets them back to work.
How do you do that?
The idle worker key is just for one worker. There is no 'select all idle workers' button. The only thing that is happening is (as mentioned already) the ctrl+click worker, so that you select all workers on screen.
There is in fact a way to select all idle workers. I rebound mine back in WoL so I can't remember what the default button is. Is it ~?
Either way pressing the idle worker hotkey cycles through, if you push CTRL + idle worker hotkey you select them all!
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Are the builds in the standard match parts of this thread still viable?
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On June 06 2014 07:28 AdamsA12 wrote:
Are the builds in the standard match parts of this thread still viable?
I just looked them over. For the most part, yes they are (though unless I'm really mistaken, the ZvT build should list a spire toward the end). Also, there isn't a listed ZvP build for vs gateway expand, which is more common than FFE now.
I will list some caveats in spoiler below, mostly aimed at diamond or higher level (not sure what league you are in).
Hopefully a certain favorite blue poster of ours will weigh in with his opinions, too.
+ Show Spoiler +ZvZ: the build should be treated as a basic framework. beware of speedling all-ins and ling/bane all-ins. Scouting is essential, not just checking the natural minerals but also having overlords out on the map to spot lings running toward you.
ZvT: 6 roaches might be seen by some as an overcommitment to roaches (bad because you want the gas for mutas). Many players, including snute whose build is supposedly listed, often tailor the number of roaches to how many hellions and reapers show up. I would recommend that in general you want the roach warren just in case, but that you don't need to stick to a set number of roaches. Find what works for you.
Also, you want a spire, and usually start +1 air attack soon after it finishes. Not sure why that's not listed on the build.
ZvP: there isn't a build listed for gateway expand, against which you would ideally go hatch first, get a single earlier gas for ling speed, and take the third when he starts his natural nexus (for example, I will often go 15h, 16p, 17g or 21g, stop mining gas at 100 for ling speed; take third as soon as safe, then focus on either defense or econ as appropriate). Be active with lings to spot for and deny pylons, and make sure you have an overlord scout near his base to do a followup check which tech path he chooses.
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On June 06 2014 07:28 AdamsA12 wrote:
Are the builds in the standard match parts of this thread still viable?
page 171 i posted 3 safe standard builds + 1 extra metagame build.
TLO adapted his ZvP build to the "snute version". check below
On June 06 2014 09:05 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 07:28 AdamsA12 wrote:
Are the builds in the standard match parts of this thread still viable? I just looked them over. For the most part, yes they are (though unless I'm really mistaken, the ZvT build should list a spire toward the end). Also, there isn't a listed ZvP build for vs gateway expand, which is more common than FFE now. I will list some caveats in spoiler below, mostly aimed at diamond or higher level (not sure what league you are in). Hopefully a certain favorite blue poster of ours will weigh in with his opinions, too. + Show Spoiler +ZvZ: the build should be treated as a basic framework. beware of speedling all-ins and ling/bane all-ins. Scouting is essential, not just checking the natural minerals but also having overlords out on the map to spot lings running toward you.
ZvT: 6 roaches might be seen by some as an overcommitment to roaches (bad because you want the gas for mutas). Many players, including snute whose build is supposedly listed, often tailor the number of roaches to how many hellions and reapers show up. I would recommend that in general you want the roach warren just in case, but that you don't need to stick to a set number of roaches. Find what works for you.
Also, you want a spire, and usually start +1 air attack soon after it finishes. Not sure why that's not listed on the build.
ZvP: there isn't a build listed for gateway expand, against which you would ideally go hatch first, get a single earlier gas for ling speed, and take the third when he starts his natural nexus (for example, I will often go 15h, 16p, 17g or 21g, stop mining gas at 100 for ling speed; take third as soon as safe, then focus on either defense or econ as appropriate). Be active with lings to spot for and deny pylons, and make sure you have an overlord scout near his base to do a followup check which tech path he chooses.
for ZvP the best way to open (doesnt matter of forge or gate expand) is how the LIquid Zergs play it (my notes):
15 pool
16 hatch 2
15 ol
15 queen (inject main then tumor hatch 2 then tumor hatch 3)
17 drone
18 1 set of lings
19 drone (rally to 3rd)
20 drone (rally to geyser)
21 drone
22 gas (rallyed drone) 3:50
22 hatch 3 (rallyed drone) 4:00
21 drone
22 ol
30 ol
31 speed
from this point you have the option to choose. they pull all drones out of gas and put them back in at 6:00 to get lair ~7:00.
lately i have been trying to stay in gas, build double evo at 6:50 (evos will finish when you have 250 gas) and get +1+1 melee before lair.
~36 3rd will finish. so you plant down that tumor with your first queen and start a queen in your main and in your natural. that way you have your injects synchronized and 2 tumors rolling.
40 ol
by this time you should have scouted the wall off (after gate expand) ~5:20 to see if more gates get warped in. if this is the case then build lings to defend the 3-4 gate pressure and make sure you scout the follow up. especially if its 3 gate zealot. you also can get a roach warren between 6:00 and 6:30. if you dont get a good scout build one blind spore in each mineral line. determine when it is safe to start droning again and rebuild lost queens. do the midgame scout and decide what lair tech you should go for.
against forge, of course a lot of this is not needed. drone hard instead of making those lings and get informations like amount of gas and a researching forge. if you scout 4 gas but no spinning forge spores are a good idea again.
if you do not trust me, maybe a blue poster can quote me for truth.
/e: i will try to drop a replay for every build after a few hours of sleep
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Hey guys, I am looking for vods from gsl/pl (or elsewhere) when a protoss opens nexus gate into a timing or fast 3rd. I think going pool first is a big disadvantage vs nexus first, and would like to see examples of zergs reacting to that opener. Could someone suggest me any games?
thanks
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United States4883 Posts
On June 06 2014 11:00 Terence Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 07:28 AdamsA12 wrote:
Are the builds in the standard match parts of this thread still viable? page 171 i posted 3 safe standard builds + 1 extra metagame build. TLO adapted his ZvP build to the "snute version". check below Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 09:05 6xFPCs wrote:On June 06 2014 07:28 AdamsA12 wrote:
Are the builds in the standard match parts of this thread still viable? I just looked them over. For the most part, yes they are (though unless I'm really mistaken, the ZvT build should list a spire toward the end). Also, there isn't a listed ZvP build for vs gateway expand, which is more common than FFE now. I will list some caveats in spoiler below, mostly aimed at diamond or higher level (not sure what league you are in). Hopefully a certain favorite blue poster of ours will weigh in with his opinions, too. + Show Spoiler +ZvZ: the build should be treated as a basic framework. beware of speedling all-ins and ling/bane all-ins. Scouting is essential, not just checking the natural minerals but also having overlords out on the map to spot lings running toward you.
ZvT: 6 roaches might be seen by some as an overcommitment to roaches (bad because you want the gas for mutas). Many players, including snute whose build is supposedly listed, often tailor the number of roaches to how many hellions and reapers show up. I would recommend that in general you want the roach warren just in case, but that you don't need to stick to a set number of roaches. Find what works for you.
Also, you want a spire, and usually start +1 air attack soon after it finishes. Not sure why that's not listed on the build.
ZvP: there isn't a build listed for gateway expand, against which you would ideally go hatch first, get a single earlier gas for ling speed, and take the third when he starts his natural nexus (for example, I will often go 15h, 16p, 17g or 21g, stop mining gas at 100 for ling speed; take third as soon as safe, then focus on either defense or econ as appropriate). Be active with lings to spot for and deny pylons, and make sure you have an overlord scout near his base to do a followup check which tech path he chooses.
for ZvP the best way to open (doesnt matter of forge or gate expand) is how the LIquid Zergs play it (my notes): 15 pool 16 hatch 2 15 ol 15 queen (inject main then tumor hatch 2 then tumor hatch 3) 17 drone 18 1 set of lings 19 drone (rally to 3rd) 20 drone (rally to geyser) 21 drone 22 gas (rallyed drone) 3:50 22 hatch 3 (rallyed drone) 4:00 21 drone 22 ol 30 ol 31 speed from this point you have the option to choose. they pull all drones out of gas and put them back in at 6:00 to get lair ~7:00. lately i have been trying to stay in gas, build double evo at 6:50 (evos will finish when you have 250 gas) and get +1+1 melee before lair. ~36 3rd will finish. so you plant down that tumor with your first queen and start a queen in your main and in your natural. that way you have your injects synchronized and 2 tumors rolling. 40 ol by this time you should have scouted the wall off (after gate expand) ~5:20 to see if more gates get warped in. if this is the case then build lings to defend the 3-4 gate pressure and make sure you scout the follow up. especially if its 3 gate zealot. you also can get a roach warren between 6:00 and 6:30. if you dont get a good scout build one blind spore in each mineral line. determine when it is safe to start droning again and rebuild lost queens. do the midgame scout and decide what lair tech you should go for. against forge, of course a lot of this is not needed. drone hard instead of making those lings and get informations like amount of gas and a researching forge. if you scout 4 gas but no spinning forge spores are a good idea again. if you do not trust me, maybe a blue poster can quote me for truth. /e: i will try to drop a replay for every build after a few hours of sleep
This is, more or less, a decent triple hatch opening and scouting info. The big thing to remember about gateway expands is that all the timings are moved up a minute; in other words, where you do your normal overlord sac timing at 7:00 for a FFE, you would do it a minute earlier at 6:00. Same thing for your roach warren timing, etc.
Of course, there are several different ways to get up to three hatches as well. soO's triple hatch opening consists of getting both queens and speed before taking the third. I usually take 3 hatches before queens (and they still get out on time to deal with gateway pokes). Some people get one queen. Some people go triple hatch before pool. It's all about what you're comfortable with. In the end, all the different variations should actually end up feeling about the same when all is said and done (just faster timings and more drones, etc.).
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I've been doing some hatch blocking versus Terran lately when I identify them going reaper. Is there a reason zergs are not doing this? With the Terran meta heavily hinging on reapers into hellions, it's really hard for Terran to kill a hatchery even when it only gets started when the first reaper pops.
http://drop.sc/382152
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On June 06 2014 16:44 Saechiis wrote:I've been doing some hatch blocking versus Terran lately when I identify them going reaper. Is there a reason zergs are not doing this? With the Terran meta heavily hinging on reapers into hellions, it's really hard for Terran to kill a hatchery even when it only gets started when the first reaper pops. http://drop.sc/382152
yeah, but you should receive some massive damage in turn since you don't have queens, assuming your opponent doesn't try to kill your natural hatchery with a reaper before jumping in the main and leaving instead of killing the zerglings.
Also, if you do it like you did with that massive delayed speed/no roaches, I think reaper/hellion should hurt you really badly assuming you play a guy that actually builds hellions of this.
But surely a fun thing to mix in and not too bad of a move.
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Hi I am playing high master terrans and i am completely at a loss as to what order my gas is supposed to be spent now. Helllbats are giving me trouble with banshees. Do I get a roach warren? When? Do I get speed before roaches? How do i adjust the gas spending when i scout no banshees? Please help. Completely getting wrecked by high master terrans
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Hey, Ive been playing sc2 since it came out and slowly worked my way to highish master where Ive been stuck for most of the past 3years. I havent played much and didnt try hard enough.
Starting this year I told myself I will play as much as possible and become at least GM by the end of the year. In past half year I played around 3k games (wich is around 1/5th of my total games over the 4years) and im still "stuck" I feel I improved but very little or not to a degree where I can see myself beat better players or at least confidently beat "lesser" players at local scene. Any tips on how to overcome this "skill plateau"? Or how to improve more efficiently?
Lately Ive reserved myself to one macro build and one cheese per matchup (copying the popular builds among progamers) to really minmax those and focus on steadily getting better at those. Im also trying to look at way more VODs to catch the "smart plays" or decision making.
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Ok guys, I really need your help.
I usually do not have a lot of problem in ZvP. Sometimes I lose to cheese, but it s mostly my own mistakes.
But there is a build I ve been facing twice today and got completely dismantled(Diamond EU). The first one, I failed to scout properly so I won't show the replay but the second one was painful.
The guy basically went 3 stargate into airtoss and totally rocked me...
Here s the replay : ZvP Overgrowth
What composition should I get?
Any help with the mistakes I made is also greatly appreciated (I am trying to improve).
EDIT: a link to a VOD of a Zerg holding this would be paramount!
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EPT
