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Hi,
Whenever I am in a ZvT. Me being the zerg player.
I usually go for 2 quick evo chambers to get my melee and carapace upgrades.
After geting my lair.
I often find myself either having Mutalisk or speed banelings.
If I go for speed banelings, I won't have enough gas for mutalisk and vice versa.
Can someone tell me what should I do so that I can get both mutalisk and speed baneling or is there a build for it??
Another question being ZvP.
When do I know that they're going for an immortal all-in?? Assuming the protoss player hides his robotics facility.
And When do I know that they're going for a 7gateway all in??
thanks! and pardon for my weak english 
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On June 12 2014 15:50 zackyhell wrote:Hi, Whenever I am in a ZvT. Me being the zerg player. I usually go for 2 quick evo chambers to get my melee and carapace upgrades. After geting my lair. I often find myself either having Mutalisk or speed banelings. If I go for speed banelings, I won't have enough gas for mutalisk and vice versa. Can someone tell me what should I do so that I can get both mutalisk and speed baneling or is there a build for it?? Another question being ZvP. When do I know that they're going for an immortal all-in?? Assuming the protoss player hides his robotics facility. And When do I know that they're going for a 7gateway all in?? thanks! and pardon for my weak english
For the ZvP question (being a former P player (yeah, boo, shame on me)),
An immortal all-in will rarely have more than 4 gates before 7.30 (more or less). Actually they should be planting gates 2,3and 4 around that time.
Basically the build goes: 1 gate, robo, 3gate (and chrono out 3x immo) then 3 more gates while moving out for a total of 7.
Whereas a 7 gate all-in will have the first 4 gates out earlier (typically around 6min) and then add the following 3 around 8min.
So you have a 1.30 min difference in the number of gate between the two.
Basically: scout at 6-6'30 (like you should). Even if you cannot see the robo, seeing more than 1 gate (like 4 for instance) means it wont me an immortal all-in.
For ZvT, this might be a stupid question but can we assume you re on 3 bases?
edit: there is an old 1 gas 7gate all-in from wol, where 6 gates will be made to be complete at 7.30. All 6 gates will be made all at once (as money allows) as opposed to 1, 3 then another 3. However, since this build only uses 1 gas, it s fairly easy to scout.
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I was just thinking on how to improve my rally micro since it happens quite often that an opposing army is positioned in a way where it intercepts rallying units from one or more hatches. Is there actually good reasons to rally your hatches unit wise? Ideally you'll be hotkey'ing your army as you build it so what's the added benefit of having everything walk to a central point when that's a detriment in certain situations?
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On June 12 2014 18:11 Saechiis wrote:
I was just thinking on how to improve my rally micro since it happens quite often that an opposing army is positioned in a way where it intercepts rallying units from one or more hatches. Is there actually good reasons to rally your hatches unit wise? Ideally you'll be hotkey'ing your army as you build it so what's the added benefit of having everything walk to a central point when that's a detriment in certain situations?
A gold perspective on the problem:
Sometimes I dont hotkey my units as eggs. Either because I am in a long micro sequence and want to use up the larvae but dont have time to mess around with hotkeys so I choose not to hotkey the, or I just forget because I am gold, or because my units are "behind the enemy line", often mutas, and I don't want reinforcements to trickle into the enemies main army.
In all of those cases, I want the built unhotkeyed units in a single spot so that I quickly can go back and hotkey them when I get the chance.
Sometimes when pressured I add the reinforcements to a separate hotkey, which can make for a nice surround with some luck. But that only works when all the hatcheries are on the same side of the enemy.
In the scenario you describe, with an army cutting of the path between hatcheries, you would ideally rally hatcheries separately as you say, but not sure how to do that in an easy way. In that situation I just do a final desperate a-move when a batch of reinforcements pop, then tap out when it fails. But that is probably part of the reason why I am in gold.
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I'm thinking individual rally points to defensive spots near each hatchery. Most common scenario is where toss goes for a 2 base all-in and cuts inbetween my 3rd base and my main and natural where my rally point would be positioned. You can reset individual rally points when you see it coming but often you've already been making units and they'll be streaming to their death. It's just impossible to intercept all lings before they suicide from 2 sides and keep up macro and injects at the same time. So why not have your main and natural rallied to your natural and your 3rd separately? Saves you time when you're in trouble and automatically sets up flanks by having units in different positions, might be convenient with drops too. And in the case where you're unable to hotkey your eggs there's still that all army hotkey to save the day.
On paper it seems to make sense at least, I'll be trying this out the coming days and see where it goes (so hard not to auto hive mind rally lol).
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On June 12 2014 17:13 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 15:50 zackyhell wrote:Hi, Whenever I am in a ZvT. Me being the zerg player. I usually go for 2 quick evo chambers to get my melee and carapace upgrades. After geting my lair. I often find myself either having Mutalisk or speed banelings. If I go for speed banelings, I won't have enough gas for mutalisk and vice versa. Can someone tell me what should I do so that I can get both mutalisk and speed baneling or is there a build for it?? Another question being ZvP. When do I know that they're going for an immortal all-in?? Assuming the protoss player hides his robotics facility. And When do I know that they're going for a 7gateway all in?? thanks! and pardon for my weak english For the ZvP question (being a former P player (yeah, boo, shame on me)), An immortal all-in will rarely have more than 4 gates before 7.30 (more or less). Actually they should be planting gates 2,3and 4 around that time. Basically the build goes: 1 gate, robo, 3gate (and chrono out 3x immo) then 3 more gates while moving out for a total of 7. Whereas a 7 gate all-in will have the first 4 gates out earlier (typically around 6min) and then add the following 3 around 8min. So you have a 1.30 min difference in the number of gate between the two. Basically: scout at 6-6'30 (like you should). Even if you cannot see the robo, seeing more than 1 gate (like 4 for instance) means it wont me an immortal all-in. For ZvT, this might be a stupid question but can we assume you re on 3 bases? edit: there is an old 1 gas 7gate all-in from wol, where 6 gates will be made to be complete at 7.30. All 6 gates will be made all at once (as money allows) as opposed to 1, 3 then another 3. However, since this build only uses 1 gas, it s fairly easy to scout.
Yes, you can assume I'm on 3 bases!
Thanks for the ZvP tips!
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When do you take your gases then, zackyhell? In ZvT.
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On June 12 2014 15:50 zackyhell wrote:
Hi,
Whenever I am in a ZvT. Me being the zerg player.
I usually go for 2 quick evo chambers to get my melee and carapace upgrades.
After geting my lair.
I often find myself either having Mutalisk or speed banelings.
If I go for speed banelings, I won't have enough gas for mutalisk and vice versa.
Can someone tell me what should I do so that I can get both mutalisk and speed baneling or is there a build for it??
Sounds like you aren't taking your gases early enough.
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What happened to mutas in ZvZ. I almost never see mutas anymore, and I've just started playing zerg again. I try to do what the pros do, but it seems like I'd win most of my games if I go muta (I am just gold z atm). So why are they gone?
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On June 12 2014 22:09 Mozdk wrote:
What happened to mutas in ZvZ. I almost never see mutas anymore, and I've just started playing zerg again. I try to do what the pros do, but it seems like I'd win most of my games if I go muta (I am just gold z atm). So why are they gone?
the spore buff makes it difficult to engage with a small amount of mutas, whereas a small roach push can end you or at least deal crippling damage
edit: I meant roach push and not rush push (correction made)
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On June 12 2014 22:28 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 22:09 Mozdk wrote:
What happened to mutas in ZvZ. I almost never see mutas anymore, and I've just started playing zerg again. I try to do what the pros do, but it seems like I'd win most of my games if I go muta (I am just gold z atm). So why are they gone? the spore buff makes it difficult to engage with a small amount of mutas, whereas a small roach push can end you or at least deal crippling damage edit: I meant roach push and not rush push (correction made)
I know about the spore buff, but just for a regular fight. If you have max roach and I have 10 mutas and max roach. Wont I win any fight we take that isn't above a spore....
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On June 12 2014 22:05 wrier wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 15:50 zackyhell wrote:
Hi,
Whenever I am in a ZvT. Me being the zerg player.
I usually go for 2 quick evo chambers to get my melee and carapace upgrades.
After geting my lair.
I often find myself either having Mutalisk or speed banelings.
If I go for speed banelings, I won't have enough gas for mutalisk and vice versa.
Can someone tell me what should I do so that I can get both mutalisk and speed baneling or is there a build for it??
Sounds like you aren't taking your gases early enough.
I take my first gas as soon as possible after putting down my pool.
Then, when I reach around 35+ supply, I throw down 2 evo chambers and a baneling nest.
Get carapace and melee upgrade, then I get 2 more gases and my 3rd base.
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On June 12 2014 22:38 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 22:28 WGT-Baal wrote:On June 12 2014 22:09 Mozdk wrote:
What happened to mutas in ZvZ. I almost never see mutas anymore, and I've just started playing zerg again. I try to do what the pros do, but it seems like I'd win most of my games if I go muta (I am just gold z atm). So why are they gone? the spore buff makes it difficult to engage with a small amount of mutas, whereas a small roach push can end you or at least deal crippling damage edit: I meant roach push and not rush push (correction made) I know about the spore buff, but just for a regular fight. If you have max roach and I have 10 mutas and max roach. Wont I win any fight we take that isn't above a spore....
I dont know, it s likely the roaches will be 2-2 while your mutas won't be. Roaches snowball a lot. If you have 10 mutas, assuming same number of drones and queens, then I ll have 10 roaches more. It should destroy your roach army. Mutas have less DPS than roaches (esp with armor essentially negating bouncing damage). Liquipedia says 5.9DPS for mutas vs 8 for roaches (no upgrade). I think it should be tested in one of those custom maps though.
The other reason is the gas cost involved with going muta/roach. Either you go muta/ling or roach (and may be hydra later).
The difficulty is holding the first roach attack (spire takes a while). If you go roach yourself first, then there is a window during your tech switch to muta where you re gonna be vulnerable.
I m theorycrafting at this point, but I have won several games recently going roach vs Muta/ling
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With 2/2 100 supply roaches vs 2/2 100 supply roach/muta (where mutas have 0/0), the first one will win. Even when mutas have 1/0. Not by much in the second case, but still.
If you go mutas, you just kind of die if your opponent goes for any kind of roach push. They just don't kill stuff fast enough.
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On June 12 2014 23:07 Alchemik wrote:
With 2/2 100 supply roaches vs 2/2 100 supply roach/muta (where mutas have 0/0), the first one will win. Even when mutas have 1/0. Not by much in the second case, but still.
If you go mutas, you just kind of die if your opponent goes for any kind of roach push. They just don't kill stuff fast enough.
But the mutas will all be firing at all times. And not all the roaches will.
But I assume you guys are right.
When should I be scouting for spire then? If I go defensive mass roach.
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How to beat muta when going roach off a speedling opener? I can usually secure my third but the mutas pick me apart and i lose all map control. What order should I get the hydras and infestors?
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On June 12 2014 23:15 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 23:07 Alchemik wrote:
With 2/2 100 supply roaches vs 2/2 100 supply roach/muta (where mutas have 0/0), the first one will win. Even when mutas have 1/0. Not by much in the second case, but still.
If you go mutas, you just kind of die if your opponent goes for any kind of roach push. They just don't kill stuff fast enough. But the mutas will all be firing at all times. And not all the roaches will. But I assume you guys are right. When should I be scouting for spire then? If I go defensive mass roach.
Yes if you shoot at the roaches all the way across the map from your opponent's base to yours with the mutas then you might win the engagement. But even if you do it ll be by a slim margin and his repop will allow him to hold your counter. the thing is he will always be able to attack you while you won't be able to attack into spore/queens.
That's assuming you didnt die during your muta transition.
Scouting for spire is when you scout his lair. With overseer he can't prevent your scouting until he has mutas out anyways.
If you attack the second you re maxed out you ll win if he went for max roach mutas.
edit: at any case, you should poke when you re ahead in upgrades or have speed done. He can't possibly go into spire while following you in upgrades and roach numbers (that s too gas heavy, unless you screw up big time)
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United States4883 Posts
On June 12 2014 23:15 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 23:07 Alchemik wrote:
With 2/2 100 supply roaches vs 2/2 100 supply roach/muta (where mutas have 0/0), the first one will win. Even when mutas have 1/0. Not by much in the second case, but still.
If you go mutas, you just kind of die if your opponent goes for any kind of roach push. They just don't kill stuff fast enough. But the mutas will all be firing at all times. And not all the roaches will. But I assume you guys are right. When should I be scouting for spire then? If I go defensive mass roach.
If you're opening 2-base roach, dealing with mutas is fairly straightforward. When you get lair, overseer scout your opponent. If he's going spire, just pump out ~2 rounds of roaches, approximately ~20 in total, and attack his third. Behind this, you take a 3rd, get spores up, get a healthy drone count (~55), and tech to hydras. The roach counterattack WILL die to mutas, but it buys you all the time in the world to get safe at home and pull back your overlords, pretty much negating the advantage that your opponent had by going mutas.
On June 12 2014 23:20 mooseman1710 wrote:
How to beat muta when going roach off a speedling opener? I can usually secure my third but the mutas pick me apart and i lose all map control. What order should I get the hydras and infestors?
See above. Also, once you get comfortable on 3 bases...I think it's best to just max out on roach/hydra + 6 infestors. Build around 20-30 hydras, get your infestation pit up and start infestors while filling out your composition with the remaining roaches you need. The infestors are mainly used to prevent banelings from rolling into your hydras. I have a pretty good success rate with this. Also, sidenote: I highly suggest dedicating 3-4 queens to use in conjunction with your hydras to zone out the mutas. Fact is, a spore and 3-4 full energy queens is actually more dangerous than a pack of hydras.
On June 12 2014 15:50 zackyhell wrote:Hi, Whenever I am in a ZvT. Me being the zerg player. I usually go for 2 quick evo chambers to get my melee and carapace upgrades. After geting my lair. I often find myself either having Mutalisk or speed banelings. If I go for speed banelings, I won't have enough gas for mutalisk and vice versa. Can someone tell me what should I do so that I can get both mutalisk and speed baneling or is there a build for it?? Another question being ZvP. When do I know that they're going for an immortal all-in?? Assuming the protoss player hides his robotics facility. And When do I know that they're going for a 7gateway all in?? thanks! and pardon for my weak english
ZvT: It sounds like you're doing 2-base mutas, which is a pretty outdated build. I highly suggest stealing a build from [urlhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/428262-a-second-overview-of-hots-zerg]Blade's Second Overview of HotS Zerg[/url] and using that. On 3 bases, it's generally a better rule to favor ling/bling + upgrades over mutalisks, but on two bases, you want to favor spending gas on mutalisks early since it's a less economical build and it's your tech advantage that needs to be put to use.
ZvP: I'm working on a guide right now on how to scout in ZvP. The easiest way to tell a Soultrain and a 7-gate apart is to just watch the natural geysers. If no natural geysers by 7:00, it's a pressure build like 7-gate. If gases before 7:00, then it means he's doing some kind of tech-based build, either DTs, stargate, or robo; if you don't see any robo or robo units and no third base, defend with blind spores and roaches .
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i really prefer queen/infestor before hydra because the infestors will make your opponent a lot more afraid to attack into you. if you're playing muta then hydras are like marines, you just fly away. a good player will fly away from hydras and start harassing overlords, transferring workers, expansions, extractors, tech buildings, etc. which can buy them time to transition back into ground. and, like phoenix, mutas can pick off isolated hydras as they're spawning or rallying. infestors on the other hand force almost constant attention on your opponent's mutas. the worst thing about playing against mutas imo is the multitasking and attention it forces, and infestors immediately shift the attention/APM burden back toward your opponent, which frees you up to play a comfortable macro game
this isn't just my personal theory, i used to rush hydras too until i saw kespa koreans defending mutas really well with queen/infestor. ofc i don't think there's anything wrong with hydras either. queen/infestor i think is a stronger passive macro style. if you want to defend the mutas and then just go crush your opponent, then i'd go hydra
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Is it possible to hold early proxy reapers with a no gas hatch first? If so, how? I've tried and tried but I always die. 
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EPT
