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United States4883 Posts
On June 15 2014 03:10 Hulkoff wrote:Is it possible to hold early proxy reapers with a no gas hatch first? If so, how? I've tried and tried but I always die. 
It's certainly always difficult to hold against proxy reapers, but once you get the queens out, you should be mostly okay. When the first reaper gets out, you have to pull like 4-5 drones and pull back the injured ones to buy time for lings. Once the lings are out, you just buy time for queens. Once you have 4 queens total (2 at each hatchery) and about 6 lings, you should be able to push them away long enough to get gases up ~5:00. If they insist on constant reaper production (4+), just build a spine crawler in your mineral lines. You lose a drone and your third is a little late, but it's a decent price to pay considering the Terran is delaying his own economy and tech by doing it.
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I would like to talk about early game scouting in ZvZ...
When my opponent goes for a economic opening (hatch first or pool>hatch>gas) I have a hard time determining whether he is going to go for greedy play, speedling pressure, or a heavy ling/bane attack. I can't tell you how often my opponent opens hatch first, I scout him with lings between 4-5 minutes, see that his base/drone count looks exactly the same as mine, then get surprised 1-2 minutes later by dozens of lings/banes that my few emergency banes can't handle.
I see a lot of pro players make a pair of lings as soon as their pool finishes and send them straight to the opponent's main. When I do this, though, I find it is too early for me to be able to learn anything except for their gas timing, which is about the same as mine 95% of the time. Unless they open gasless or pull drones out of gas after ling speed (which is rare) their base looks pretty much identical to mine. At this time (usually 4:00-4:30ish) the enemy will not have started a bane nest, a spine, cutting drones, or production lings yet, so it seems to me like there is not much to see.
Some people have advised me to keep an overlord near he enemy natural to watch the enemy drone count. I have had 2 problems with this, though. Firstly, some maps don't have enough air space there for me to prevent my overlord from being sniped by a queen. Secondly, many players will transfer some drones from their main to their natural in order to give the impression that they have more than they actually do, making me feel safe when I am really not...
The thing that has worked best for me so far (but is not ideal) is to delay my ling scout until after I start my second queen (so I make my first ling pair at 24 supply instead of 17). This results in my scouting lings arriving at his base a little after 5:00, so that often times I will be able to see a bane nest/spine/drones cut/lings being massed, etc. and have a better idea of what is going on. The downside is that often times he will be able to deny my lings with queens or a spine, and I won't be able to see much, if anything at all.
I would like some opinions and scouting methods from you zergies out there as to how you approach scouting in ZvZ before 7:00 or so, and what you think I may be doing right or wrong. It could be that I just need better minimap awareness, or I could be doing something fundamentally wrong. Either way, I look forward to your responses. 
Thanks!
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I think you're doing it quite right. maybe both the 17 and 24 scout + ovi at the natural for drone count. if you see a spine and a banelinenest you can think that it should be quite delayed with more drones or even tech-heavy/defensive. If you struggle with stuff after 30-40 supply timings maybe you can make a small timing with 12 lings 2-3 banes to pressure a bit and scout for a timing if you make the baneling nest and speed anyways. you dont get far behind I think by making something like that.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 15 2014 05:26 Frankie Teardrop wrote:I would like to talk about early game scouting in ZvZ... When my opponent goes for a economic opening (hatch first or pool>hatch>gas) I have a hard time determining whether he is going to go for greedy play, speedling pressure, or a heavy ling/bane attack. I can't tell you how often my opponent opens hatch first, I scout him with lings between 4-5 minutes, see that his base/drone count looks exactly the same as mine, then get surprised 1-2 minutes later by dozens of lings/banes that my few emergency banes can't handle. I see a lot of pro players make a pair of lings as soon as their pool finishes and send them straight to the opponent's main. When I do this, though, I find it is too early for me to be able to learn anything except for their gas timing, which is about the same as mine 95% of the time. Unless they open gasless or pull drones out of gas after ling speed (which is rare) their base looks pretty much identical to mine. At this time (usually 4:00-4:30ish) the enemy will not have started a bane nest, a spine, cutting drones, or production lings yet, so it seems to me like there is not much to see. Some people have advised me to keep an overlord near he enemy natural to watch the enemy drone count. I have had 2 problems with this, though. Firstly, some maps don't have enough air space there for me to prevent my overlord from being sniped by a queen. Secondly, many players will transfer some drones from their main to their natural in order to give the impression that they have more than they actually do, making me feel safe when I am really not... The thing that has worked best for me so far (but is not ideal) is to delay my ling scout until after I start my second queen (so I make my first ling pair at 24 supply instead of 17). This results in my scouting lings arriving at his base a little after 5:00, so that often times I will be able to see a bane nest/spine/drones cut/lings being massed, etc. and have a better idea of what is going on. The downside is that often times he will be able to deny my lings with queens or a spine, and I won't be able to see much, if anything at all. I would like some opinions and scouting methods from you zergies out there as to how you approach scouting in ZvZ before 7:00 or so, and what you think I may be doing right or wrong. It could be that I just need better minimap awareness, or I could be doing something fundamentally wrong. Either way, I look forward to your responses. Thanks!
So here are the main timings for speedlings: 6:00, 6:40, 7:20. As you'll notice, it's every 40 seconds and it happens to coincide with injects. The first scout (first ~4 lings) are mainly to scout for gas vs. gasless opening, which mostly just allows you to abuse gasless openings more than anything. After that, if you're opening with gas -- you want zergling speed of your own and a well-timed baneling nest -- and then it just comes down to watching the minimap/natural mineral line at those times. I think it's fair to say that if you see a spine crawler going up (which indicates a passive stance), you can squeeze out another round of drones before worrying about any heavy pressure. If you're REALLY having trouble identifying this, you can try one of two options: build your own swell of lings at 6:00 every game and do some pressure/force some lings out of your opponent OR just go early spine crawler and make 2-3 blind banelings. I personally prefer the first option as it's a pretty safe option and it will always mess with your opponent (if you're below mid masters) -- not a great option versus gasless, but a decent one against gas openings.
The more difficult part is the time in between lair tech and early ling/bling aggression where gas usage is very difficult to scout. This time period is when scary things like delayed ling/bling attacks (~15 banes), roach attacks, speedbane attacks, and roach/bane attacks hit. Against these, you just have to rely on spotting gases with your overlords, poking around with lings, and relying on snap decision making in order to defend.
EDIT: Quick note about pulling stuff off gas in ZvZ. IN GENERAL, it's just better to continue mining gas always, maybe pulling off 1 drone and SOMETIMES pulling off 2. You don't need to worry about this too much with your scouting, as it's a marginal advantage thing, and the only real threat of not scouting that your opponent pulled out of gas is a really fast third base (which you should be able to spot and contest with ling/bling). In other words, it's likely that your opponent has about the same amount of gas that you do if you both opened with gases.
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On June 15 2014 05:26 Frankie Teardrop wrote:I would like to talk about early game scouting in ZvZ... When my opponent goes for a economic opening (hatch first or pool>hatch>gas) I have a hard time determining whether he is going to go for greedy play, speedling pressure, or a heavy ling/bane attack. I can't tell you how often my opponent opens hatch first, I scout him with lings between 4-5 minutes, see that his base/drone count looks exactly the same as mine, then get surprised 1-2 minutes later by dozens of lings/banes that my few emergency banes can't handle. I see a lot of pro players make a pair of lings as soon as their pool finishes and send them straight to the opponent's main. When I do this, though, I find it is too early for me to be able to learn anything except for their gas timing, which is about the same as mine 95% of the time. Unless they open gasless or pull drones out of gas after ling speed (which is rare) their base looks pretty much identical to mine. At this time (usually 4:00-4:30ish) the enemy will not have started a bane nest, a spine, cutting drones, or production lings yet, so it seems to me like there is not much to see. Some people have advised me to keep an overlord near he enemy natural to watch the enemy drone count. I have had 2 problems with this, though. Firstly, some maps don't have enough air space there for me to prevent my overlord from being sniped by a queen. Secondly, many players will transfer some drones from their main to their natural in order to give the impression that they have more than they actually do, making me feel safe when I am really not... The thing that has worked best for me so far (but is not ideal) is to delay my ling scout until after I start my second queen (so I make my first ling pair at 24 supply instead of 17). This results in my scouting lings arriving at his base a little after 5:00, so that often times I will be able to see a bane nest/spine/drones cut/lings being massed, etc. and have a better idea of what is going on. The downside is that often times he will be able to deny my lings with queens or a spine, and I won't be able to see much, if anything at all. I would like some opinions and scouting methods from you zergies out there as to how you approach scouting in ZvZ before 7:00 or so, and what you think I may be doing right or wrong. It could be that I just need better minimap awareness, or I could be doing something fundamentally wrong. Either way, I look forward to your responses. Thanks!
make a bane nest as soon as u hit 50 gas after speed. ( if you scout no expansion you might want to start bane nest first)
make 1-2 banes as soon as it finishes. these 2 banes along with spine and ur main queen moved down to natural will be enough time to buffer for ur lings to come out. place the bane nest and spine in a good sim city position also.
if you still dont have enough time for lings to pop, then preemptively move ur natural drones to ur main and wall off ramp with queens and threaten with the 2 banes u made.
these 2 banes will come in handy later when defending ur third as it allows more buffer time for lings to pop when u see 3rd pressure, which frees up ur lings to go attack his third when u have 2 banes plus more lings on the way to ur third. so try not to lose the 2 banes if u dont have to.
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I've been having some trouble lately with losing my 3rd base to Protoss who go for 3/4/5 gate zealot/msc pressure off of 1 gate FE, and hit my 3rd before 7:00. With the current map pool, I find it difficult to hunt down proxy pylons now, especially on maps like overgrowth, merry go round, and King Sejong. There are so many little nooks and alcoves along ledges and edges of the map where Protoss can hide pylons, and even when I deny one, often times the Protoss will still have another on my side of the map. The maps -- even the 2-player ones, are also fairly big, so it takes longer for my lings to cover all that ground.
I go for a 15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 ov, 15 queen, 17 gas build vs gateway expands, and my ling speed usually finishes around 6:00, I believe. Is this too late? Should I be taking gas sooner, or would I be better of just skipping gas and ling speed altogether for a fast 3 base opener, and defending zealot pressure with slow lings, queens, and maybe a spine or 2? I know hatch first builds are preferable against 1 gate FE, but since I don't drone scout, I'm not comfortable going blind hatch first in ZvP.
Also, to scout for proxies, I build 2 sets of lings around 4:30 and when they pop, I press the P key and click on the spots on the minimap where pylons are most likely to be hidden. Is this a bad method? When watching my replays, I will often see that my lings run right by proxy pylons that are JUST out of their line of sight because they are tucked into some little nook at the very edge of the map. Is there any way I can more thoroughly use these lings to hunt for pylons without using much APM?
Thanks!
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On June 19 2014 01:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
I've been having some trouble lately with losing my 3rd base to Protoss who go for 3/4/5 gate zealot/msc pressure off of 1 gate FE, and hit my 3rd before 7:00. With the current map pool, I find it difficult to hunt down proxy pylons now, especially on maps like overgrowth, merry go round, and King Sejong. There are so many little nooks and alcoves along ledges and edges of the map where Protoss can hide pylons, and even when I deny one, often times the Protoss will still have another on my side of the map. The maps -- even the 2-player ones, are also fairly big, so it takes longer for my lings to cover all that ground.
I go for a 15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 ov, 15 queen, 17 gas build vs gateway expands, and my ling speed usually finishes around 6:00, I believe. Is this too late? Should I be taking gas sooner, or would I be better of just skipping gas and ling speed altogether for a fast 3 base opener, and defending zealot pressure with slow lings, queens, and maybe a spine or 2? I know hatch first builds are preferable against 1 gate FE, but since I don't drone scout, I'm not comfortable going blind hatch first in ZvP.
Also, to scout for proxies, I build 2 sets of lings around 4:30 and when they pop, I press the P key and click on the spots on the minimap where pylons are most likely to be hidden. Is this a bad method? When watching my replays, I will often see that my lings run right by proxy pylons that are JUST out of their line of sight because they are tucked into some little nook at the very edge of the map. Is there any way I can more thoroughly use these lings to hunt for pylons without using much APM?
Thanks!
i don't like using patrol because it makes the lings move only in straight lines from one point to another and it discourages you from babysitting the lings. what i do is shift+amove a route to 3-4 likely proxy locations, then when the route is done i look for parts of the minimap that are still greyed out as unscouted and try to cover those locations as well. patrolling is basically a gamble that says "well i hope your probe/pylon is in x place at y time". i mean it's still better than doing nothing, but it's not the way i like to do it. at 4-6 minutes you're not going to be doing anything complicated with your multitasking so it's better imo to really focus on those lings, look at their vision often, repath them often, etc. since finding the pylon is SO important
it's really just a matter of having an efficient route, which only comes with map experience, and smart targeting (i.e. instead of just clicking on the middle of an empty base, click all the way into the back of the mineral line, because obviously that's where toss will want to put it). also, this may be obvious, but split the lings up to cover more ground instead of having the pair together. 2-4 lings aren't going to stop a good protoss from doing his attack, so it's more important to get visual confirmation of the pylon and then focus on your defense, because the attack WILL come
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United States4883 Posts
On June 19 2014 03:18 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 01:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
I've been having some trouble lately with losing my 3rd base to Protoss who go for 3/4/5 gate zealot/msc pressure off of 1 gate FE, and hit my 3rd before 7:00. With the current map pool, I find it difficult to hunt down proxy pylons now, especially on maps like overgrowth, merry go round, and King Sejong. There are so many little nooks and alcoves along ledges and edges of the map where Protoss can hide pylons, and even when I deny one, often times the Protoss will still have another on my side of the map. The maps -- even the 2-player ones, are also fairly big, so it takes longer for my lings to cover all that ground.
I go for a 15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 ov, 15 queen, 17 gas build vs gateway expands, and my ling speed usually finishes around 6:00, I believe. Is this too late? Should I be taking gas sooner, or would I be better of just skipping gas and ling speed altogether for a fast 3 base opener, and defending zealot pressure with slow lings, queens, and maybe a spine or 2? I know hatch first builds are preferable against 1 gate FE, but since I don't drone scout, I'm not comfortable going blind hatch first in ZvP.
Also, to scout for proxies, I build 2 sets of lings around 4:30 and when they pop, I press the P key and click on the spots on the minimap where pylons are most likely to be hidden. Is this a bad method? When watching my replays, I will often see that my lings run right by proxy pylons that are JUST out of their line of sight because they are tucked into some little nook at the very edge of the map. Is there any way I can more thoroughly use these lings to hunt for pylons without using much APM?
Thanks! i don't like using patrol because it makes the lings move only in straight lines from one point to another and it discourages you from babysitting the lings. what i do is shift+amove a route to 3-4 likely proxy locations, then when the route is done i look for parts of the minimap that are still greyed out as unscouted and try to cover those locations as well. patrolling is basically a gamble that says "well i hope your probe/pylon is in x place at y time". i mean it's still better than doing nothing, but it's not the way i like to do it. at 4-6 minutes you're not going to be doing anything complicated with your multitasking so it's better imo to really focus on those lings, look at their vision often, repath them often, etc. since finding the pylon is SO important it's really just a matter of having an efficient route, which only comes with map experience, and smart targeting (i.e. instead of just clicking on the middle of an empty base, click all the way into the back of the mineral line, because obviously that's where toss will want to put it). also, this may be obvious, but split the lings up to cover more ground instead of having the pair together. 2-4 lings aren't going to stop a good protoss from doing his attack, so it's more important to get visual confirmation of the pylon and then focus on your defense, because the attack WILL come
I'm actually working on a guide for Zerg scouting in ZvP right now, but the biggest thing about scouting in the early game is getting as much map coverage as possible and getting the pylon off your side of the map. I usually send my 3rd and 4th overlords to babysit very common proxy locations while scouring my side of the map for any probes with 4 lings. Once you can rule out a probe and/or proxy pylon on your side of the map, just have lings spotting around your opponent's base for probes leaving as well as potentially patrolling a few lings in key areas.
Here is an old picture of my Heavy Rain scouting pattern: + Show Spoiler +
Along with good overlord coverage, doing a maneuver like that will help you completely scout out your side of the map and keep you safe . Like I said before, the key is getting the pylon off YOUR side of the map. It doesn't matter if he has a proxy pylon at his third; he can't really scare you with anything if he can't easily get a pylon up on your side.
EDIT: I'll work on a little map for some of the newer maps, but I've gotta get to work right now.
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On June 19 2014 03:18 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 01:40 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
I've been having some trouble lately with losing my 3rd base to Protoss who go for 3/4/5 gate zealot/msc pressure off of 1 gate FE, and hit my 3rd before 7:00. With the current map pool, I find it difficult to hunt down proxy pylons now, especially on maps like overgrowth, merry go round, and King Sejong. There are so many little nooks and alcoves along ledges and edges of the map where Protoss can hide pylons, and even when I deny one, often times the Protoss will still have another on my side of the map. The maps -- even the 2-player ones, are also fairly big, so it takes longer for my lings to cover all that ground.
I go for a 15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 ov, 15 queen, 17 gas build vs gateway expands, and my ling speed usually finishes around 6:00, I believe. Is this too late? Should I be taking gas sooner, or would I be better of just skipping gas and ling speed altogether for a fast 3 base opener, and defending zealot pressure with slow lings, queens, and maybe a spine or 2? I know hatch first builds are preferable against 1 gate FE, but since I don't drone scout, I'm not comfortable going blind hatch first in ZvP.
Also, to scout for proxies, I build 2 sets of lings around 4:30 and when they pop, I press the P key and click on the spots on the minimap where pylons are most likely to be hidden. Is this a bad method? When watching my replays, I will often see that my lings run right by proxy pylons that are JUST out of their line of sight because they are tucked into some little nook at the very edge of the map. Is there any way I can more thoroughly use these lings to hunt for pylons without using much APM?
Thanks! i don't like using patrol because it makes the lings move only in straight lines from one point to another and it discourages you from babysitting the lings. what i do is shift+amove a route to 3-4 likely proxy locations, then when the route is done i look for parts of the minimap that are still greyed out as unscouted and try to cover those locations as well. patrolling is basically a gamble that says "well i hope your probe/pylon is in x place at y time". i mean it's still better than doing nothing, but it's not the way i like to do it. at 4-6 minutes you're not going to be doing anything complicated with your multitasking so it's better imo to really focus on those lings, look at their vision often, repath them often, etc. since finding the pylon is SO important
Great advice! I've never really spent any time until now thinking about the actual mechanics of proxy pylon scouting. That is definitely some food for thought. Thanks!
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Sorry for being plat but when is a good time to start looking for proxy pylons? Is it recommended to initially make 2 pairs of lings and immidiately have 2 of them to guard the toss' entrance and have the other 2 start nook and cranny scouting?
Also, what are the timings of these zealot commitments and why are there so many of them? Do they stop mining gas even after making pheonixes?
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Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
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On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
Man, I get how you feel. This game can be very discouraging at times.
I just started laddering again, and I've switched to zerg from protoss, but already my motivation is getting washed up because I just keep losing without really improving. Anyway. I need help. My zerg game is garbage. I'm in gold league now and I really shouldn't be. I've lost every legit game so far this season. What are the true fundimentals I should learn to play zerg? What kind of builds should I be doing as a low level player? I feel as though I have okay micro, but not much else. Playing is a world away from just watching, which I've been doing too much of for far too long. If this kind of post is too common, just direct me to where I should be looking and I'll go there. Thanks for you're guy's help.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:
Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
On June 19 2014 14:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please. Man, I get how you feel. This game can be very discouraging at times. I just started laddering again, and I've switched to zerg from protoss, but already my motivation is getting washed up because I just keep losing without really improving. Anyway. I need help. My zerg game is garbage. I'm in gold league now and I really shouldn't be. I've lost every legit game so far this season. What are the true fundimentals I should learn to play zerg? What kind of builds should I be doing as a low level player? I feel as though I have okay micro, but not much else. Playing is a world away from just watching, which I've been doing too much of for far too long. If this kind of post is too common, just direct me to where I should be looking and I'll go there. Thanks for you're guy's help.
My suggestion is to start playing more all-ins and cheeses if you're feeling very frustrated with your play. In the SC2 community, these seems to be this attitude that cheeses and all-ins are taboo and "no skill" or whatever, but, in fact, they really help you with your play while simplifying your game plan and allowing you a little more mental space to think. I often advise people to throw in a cheese or all-in every 2-3 games to a) work on different skills and figure out exact timings and small tells and scouting in the early game and b) just relax and take some pressure off of yourself for a while.
ZvT: Life's Sickkk Roach/Ling All-in
HyuN's Roach/Hydra ZvT
Any of the classic baneling busts (15h/16p/16g -> 2nd gas @5:00 -> roach warren/bane nest or thereabouts)
ZvP: Triple hatch before pool -> baneling bust
14/14 is still decent
roach/queen/nydus all-in (2-base and 3-base versions)
ZvZ: 15h/16g/15p -> speedling all-in (nothing but lings after pool finishes -> hide them until speed finishes)
10p/bane -> 3 banes
6pool/spine crawler rush!!! :D
If you need any more details or thoughts on these, let me know. If Waise or another more seasoned Zerg player wants to throw in any more builds, feel free to.
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On June 19 2014 14:50 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:
Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please. Man, I get how you feel. This game can be very discouraging at times. I just started laddering again, and I've switched to zerg from protoss, but already my motivation is getting washed up because I just keep losing without really improving. Anyway. I need help. My zerg game is garbage. I'm in gold league now and I really shouldn't be. I've lost every legit game so far this season. What are the true fundimentals I should learn to play zerg? What kind of builds should I be doing as a low level player? I feel as though I have okay micro, but not much else. Playing is a world away from just watching, which I've been doing too much of for far too long. If this kind of post is too common, just direct me to where I should be looking and I'll go there. Thanks for you're guy's help. My suggestion is to start playing more all-ins and cheeses if you're feeling very frustrated with your play. In the SC2 community, these seems to be this attitude that cheeses and all-ins are taboo and "no skill" or whatever, but, in fact, they really help you with your play while simplifying your game plan and allowing you a little more mental space to think. I often advise people to throw in a cheese or all-in every 2-3 games to a) work on different skills and figure out exact timings and small tells and scouting in the early game and b) just relax and take some pressure off of yourself for a while. ZvT: Life's Sickkk Roach/Ling All-inHyuN's Roach/Hydra ZvTAny of the classic baneling busts (15h/16p/16g -> 2nd gas @5:00 -> roach warren/bane nest or thereabouts) ZvP: Triple hatch before pool -> baneling bust 14/14 is still decent roach/queen/nydus all-in (2-base and 3-base versions) ZvZ: 15h/16g/15p -> speedling all-in (nothing but lings after pool finishes -> hide them until speed finishes) 10p/bane -> 3 banes 6pool/spine crawler rush!!! :D If you need any more details or thoughts on these, let me know. If Waise or another more seasoned Zerg player wants to throw in any more builds, feel free to.
Thanks for the reply. It never really considered doing all ins because I thought those wouldn't help me improve, but ling/bling/muta into ultra strats just aren't working, so I'll give them a shot. Some nydus/roach play does sound like a lot of fun. I'll try to avoid 6pools though, I know those won't help me get better at all. I just need to learn these build orders and then we'll see how it goes. Thanks.
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On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:
Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
I also like the 1 style per match up, as of now I'm top diamond playing low masters every few games and I only play
ZvT: Hyun's 1/1 roach into a 2/2 roach hydra follow up if needed. And even vs low masters if I actually hit 150 supply of 1/1 roach at 10:30 with speed I've never needed the 2/2 follow up.
ZvZ: I open gasless... on every map. I know this isn't great but I've yet to lose a game to pressure that there wasn't something I could have fixed. I've lost games because they take a quick 3rd that I really can't pressure and the roach push doesn't do enough.
ZvP: This 1 is trickier. I do fast 3 base. 15 pool/16 hatch every game. If they go gateway first I take a quick gas and get ling speed. Otherwise normal 44 supply 6 min double gas. And then scout as best I can and hope for the best.... this is my lowest winrate by far though :p
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On June 19 2014 14:50 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:
Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please. Man, I get how you feel. This game can be very discouraging at times. I just started laddering again, and I've switched to zerg from protoss, but already my motivation is getting washed up because I just keep losing without really improving. Anyway. I need help. My zerg game is garbage. I'm in gold league now and I really shouldn't be. I've lost every legit game so far this season. What are the true fundimentals I should learn to play zerg? What kind of builds should I be doing as a low level player? I feel as though I have okay micro, but not much else. Playing is a world away from just watching, which I've been doing too much of for far too long. If this kind of post is too common, just direct me to where I should be looking and I'll go there. Thanks for you're guy's help. My suggestion is to start playing more all-ins and cheeses if you're feeling very frustrated with your play. In the SC2 community, these seems to be this attitude that cheeses and all-ins are taboo and "no skill" or whatever, but, in fact, they really help you with your play while simplifying your game plan and allowing you a little more mental space to think. I often advise people to throw in a cheese or all-in every 2-3 games to a) work on different skills and figure out exact timings and small tells and scouting in the early game and b) just relax and take some pressure off of yourself for a while. ZvT: Life's Sickkk Roach/Ling All-inHyuN's Roach/Hydra ZvTAny of the classic baneling busts (15h/16p/16g -> 2nd gas @5:00 -> roach warren/bane nest or thereabouts) ZvP: Triple hatch before pool -> baneling bust 14/14 is still decent roach/queen/nydus all-in (2-base and 3-base versions) ZvZ: 15h/16g/15p -> speedling all-in (nothing but lings after pool finishes -> hide them until speed finishes) 10p/bane -> 3 banes 6pool/spine crawler rush!!! :D If you need any more details or thoughts on these, let me know. If Waise or another more seasoned Zerg player wants to throw in any more builds, feel free to.
This seems like a short term solution for me. If you win with all-ins too much, you reach a point where its not as effective and u will start losing every single game (even more frustrated).
This happened to me when i was desperate to get to masters because i was stuck for 3 seasons diamond
Or u can just all in on ladder and practice macro in unranked until u feel comfortable
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United States4883 Posts
On June 20 2014 01:59 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:50 SC2John wrote:On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:
Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please.
On June 19 2014 14:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On June 19 2014 14:16 Mjolnir wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please help me.
I am at my wit's end. I suck so badly at this game and it has me frustrated so much that I'm starting to get really, really angry when I lose. I have played since vanilla SC, and I used to be pretty decent. In fact, I was quite good at BW. When SC2 hit, I was a high diamond, took some time off so I never got into master when it was introduced (if I would have even been able to) and when HotS hit, I just lost every ounce of skill I ever had (if I even had it).
I'm frustrated to the point where I'm ready, and willing, to just quit SC2 and RTS games permanently. I feel absolutely fucking stupid. Just fucking stupid. Why can I not figure out or fix my issues?
I know I could post a replay, but those sort of suggestions are not what I want at the moment. I would like for you to tell me a concrete, tried-and-true, back-to-fundamentals type of build order for each match up. Something I can use every time I face a Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. I know this won't get me guaranteed wins, and I know things change as the opponent adjusts (I'm not after miracles here) but it will at least allow me to see what I'm doing wrong with a contemporary build that has been "peer-reviewed" so I'm not left wondering if my BO just sucked. I believe part of my issue is that my current "go-to" builds are antiquated.
If this fails, I will post replays as my last effort to get help. If that fails, I'm out.
I can't believe how this game makes me feel so absolutely shitty about myself. Like I'm too fucking stupid to learn and correct mistakes. Fuck me. I just don't get it. Add to that the inevitable BM from people after they roflstomp me like the scrub I am. Fun times.
So, please. I would love some suggestions for solid build orders for ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. Please. Man, I get how you feel. This game can be very discouraging at times. I just started laddering again, and I've switched to zerg from protoss, but already my motivation is getting washed up because I just keep losing without really improving. Anyway. I need help. My zerg game is garbage. I'm in gold league now and I really shouldn't be. I've lost every legit game so far this season. What are the true fundimentals I should learn to play zerg? What kind of builds should I be doing as a low level player? I feel as though I have okay micro, but not much else. Playing is a world away from just watching, which I've been doing too much of for far too long. If this kind of post is too common, just direct me to where I should be looking and I'll go there. Thanks for you're guy's help. My suggestion is to start playing more all-ins and cheeses if you're feeling very frustrated with your play. In the SC2 community, these seems to be this attitude that cheeses and all-ins are taboo and "no skill" or whatever, but, in fact, they really help you with your play while simplifying your game plan and allowing you a little more mental space to think. I often advise people to throw in a cheese or all-in every 2-3 games to a) work on different skills and figure out exact timings and small tells and scouting in the early game and b) just relax and take some pressure off of yourself for a while. ZvT: Life's Sickkk Roach/Ling All-inHyuN's Roach/Hydra ZvTAny of the classic baneling busts (15h/16p/16g -> 2nd gas @5:00 -> roach warren/bane nest or thereabouts) ZvP: Triple hatch before pool -> baneling bust 14/14 is still decent roach/queen/nydus all-in (2-base and 3-base versions) ZvZ: 15h/16g/15p -> speedling all-in (nothing but lings after pool finishes -> hide them until speed finishes) 10p/bane -> 3 banes 6pool/spine crawler rush!!! :D If you need any more details or thoughts on these, let me know. If Waise or another more seasoned Zerg player wants to throw in any more builds, feel free to. This seems like a short term solution for me. If you win with all-ins too much, you reach a point where its not as effective and u will start losing every single game (even more frustrated). This happened to me when i was desperate to get to masters because i was stuck for 3 seasons diamond Or u can just all in on ladder and practice macro in unranked until u feel comfortable
I often advise people to throw in a cheese or all-in every 2-3 games to a) work on different skills and figure out exact timings and small tells and scouting in the early game and b) just relax and take some pressure off of yourself for a while.
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I have a few questions about ZvZ. So at this point in time, there's only 2 ways to play macro ZvZ, mass roaches or mutas. I like to open mutas instead of roaches because I just feel roach wars are sooo boring to me. So my questions pertain to how to open with mutas and how to finish the game.
1. What is the standard BO and how should my tech progress to mutas? NOTE: this is assuming there's absolutely NO pressure just to make the BO simpler to understand.
I usually open like I do in ZvT (15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas). At 100 gas, get ling speed. At next 50 gas, get bane nest. At 100 gas, start lair and get 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gas and get 3rd base (not sure if its necessary to take all gases at once because I'll be losing out on 9 drones from minerals once the extractors are done). I take an early 3rd because I read somewhere that when going mutas, you should make a fast 3rd (maybe this is too early and very unsafe). Once lair finishes, start spire and then I work from there. Should I be getting my third that early? How many drones should be on minerals in my third? I always saturate it but I think its preferred to have only like 10 drones instead (not sure)?
2. How should I play through the mid-game against mutas or roaches?
Against mutas: I tend to make up to like 20-25 mutas but invest in my melee and carapace upgrades more than getting a higher muta count so I can just attack with my lings in multiple places. And then I slowly progress to 3-3 and just keep on harrassing with lings. Because of the spore crawler buff, my bases can be pretty safe. If his muta count gets too out of control, I should be on 3 or 4 base with 6-8 gases so I can churn out infestors quick to fungal them.
Against roaches: I would have to make a bunch of lings to protect my 3rd from the common roach timing that's intended to kill my third. By the time the roaches are going towards my base, I would have 6-8 mutas attacking them already. From here I switch to roaches and then add on SH while trying to get range upgrade. I'm thinking of trying double upgrading just to be able to keep up better against roach hydra upgrades. So I use the mutas for map control and slow down the 3rd timing. I guess my gameplan from here is to max out on roach/SH as fast as possible and just keep attacking because I would have the earlier 3rd to be able to keep outproducing my opponent.
Please let me know what should be fixed in my ZvZ. I lost like 5 straight ZvZ the other day and its getting kind of frustrating
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I am a masters zerg and I honestly have ZERO idea on how to deal with a late game viking, siege tank, mass raven, couple thors, mech army. Infestors, swarm hosts, mass spores, etc, will never beat it because he can just ignore them and kill every single unit with seekers.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/87xoKDf.png)
