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On May 11 2014 03:51 Sajaki wrote: Against mech its different. Mech has atrocious anti-air so its often a way for a bionic player to break a mech player. As bio against mech you will want to be the first to get an air army. If he gets an air advantage + BCs + tank blob you are pretty screwed in any straight-up engagement so ensure that that doesn't happen.
Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. Mech in TvT usually relies on Vikings as anti-air (not Thors, if you thought that). No matter what you're playing (Bio, Bio-Mech, Mech), you have to win the air battle. That means you need to have more Vikings and/or more Ravens with better PDD and Seeker Missile control. BCs are actually pretty crap in TvT, because they're outranged and out-DPSed by Vikings. It's ok to get a few, when you finished switching to full air, just to have some tankiness and that's it. You don't need them for the anti-ground because Ravens can fill that role with Seeker Missiles and Auto-Turrets (probably even better).
On May 11 2014 03:51 Sajaki wrote: Against mech its different. Mech has atrocious anti-air so its often a way for a bionic player to break a mech player. As bio against mech you will want to be the first to get an air army. If he gets an air advantage + BCs + tank blob you are pretty screwed in any straight-up engagement so ensure that that doesn't happen.
Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. Mech in TvT usually relies on Vikings as anti-air (not Thors, if you thought that). No matter what you're playing (Bio, Bio-Mech, Mech), you have to win the air battle. That means you need to have more Vikings and/or more Ravens with better PDD and Seeker Missile control. BCs are actually pretty crap in TvT, because they're outranged and out-DPSed by Vikings. It's ok to get a few, when you finished switching to full air, just to have some tankiness and that's it. You don't need them for the anti-ground because Ravens can fill that role with Seeker Missiles and Auto-Turrets (probably even better).
I disagree that BCs are crap. I will grant you that Vikings have excellent results against single or small numbers of Battlecruisers, but a composition of BC/Viking/Raven with 5-7 BCs/15+ Vikings/6-7 Ravens is extremely tough to deal with, because the BCs with 3-3 and Yamato Cannon thin out your opponent's Vikings while not dying that fast. I prefer to think of using BCs as the core of the air army, surrounding them with a lot of flanking Vikings, and a rear guard of slightly more Ravens than BCs. PDD, Seeker Missile, and Yamato Cannon allow you to smash people who go exclusively Viking/Raven if your control is good and you aren't completely outnumbered in terms of Raven count.
On May 11 2014 03:51 Sajaki wrote: Against mech its different. Mech has atrocious anti-air so its often a way for a bionic player to break a mech player. As bio against mech you will want to be the first to get an air army. If he gets an air advantage + BCs + tank blob you are pretty screwed in any straight-up engagement so ensure that that doesn't happen.
Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. Mech in TvT usually relies on Vikings as anti-air (not Thors, if you thought that). No matter what you're playing (Bio, Bio-Mech, Mech), you have to win the air battle. That means you need to have more Vikings and/or more Ravens with better PDD and Seeker Missile control.
I actually edited this bit while you must have written this. I play mech all the time and focus on air superiority with vikings. What I meant was that the Meching player is not always the first to get BCs, especially vs non-mech. Sorry for the confusion.
Also, as marine/tank vs marine/tank, having air control isn't all that necessary, because you just don't have the gas to spare for too many vikings, since you need it for upgrades and tanks. Air control is more necessary as the game transitions and the tank count is high enough to warrant an air transition, however.
What is the best way to counter infestor based play reminiscent of WoL? I was just playing a zerg, and was caught off guard, and he just fungaled my entire army to stop my push. Granted my macro was quite terrible. If it had been better, should I just have been able to push directly into him before infestors and hurt him for teching directly there, with just lings? After he gets this composition, should I just split accordingly, or change my composition to tanks/ghosts?
On May 11 2014 04:47 Caissa wrote: What is the best way to counter infestor based play reminiscent of WoL? I was just playing a zerg, and was caught off guard, and he just fungaled my entire army to stop my push. Granted my macro was quite terrible. If it had been better, should I just have been able to push directly into him before infestors and hurt him for teching directly there, with just lings? After he gets this composition, should I just split accordingly, or change my composition to tanks/ghosts?
Just drop everywhere and set up defenses for a push with ultralisks. If you can defend at home just hit 3 places at once consistently and he should fall apart.
On May 10 2014 18:04 aZealot wrote: I find TvT quite hard to figure out. (It can be so hard to end a game for one thing.)
I've been going Banshee first into CC and then Marine/Tank. Some of the Terrans are play against eventually transition into BCs which, so far, has caught me by surprise every time. Is there a good timing at which I should be anticipating this switch? When should I begin building BCs - if I should be building them at all? I usually switch out of Banshees into Medivacs. If so, do I just make Vikings as well and forget about making BCs?
Also, I like your tag Sajaki.
First off, thank you :D
Secondly, BCs are vastly more useful against mechanic (and against really tank-heavy biomech) then they are against marine tank. If you are marine-tank vs marine-tank you don't really need to transition at all, you can just stay on that tech if you can apply enough pressure to prevent your opponent from safely creating the infrastructure/upgrades needed for the extremely expensive switch. In my 1600+ terran games i don't think i've ever built BCs vs marine-tank unless they did a complete late-game transition out of bio entirely for skymech.
Against mech its different. Battlecruisers wreck tank lines (all factory untis, actually) so its often a way for a bionic player to break a mech player. As bio against mech you will want to be the first to get BCs. If he gets an air advantage + BCs + tank blob you are pretty screwed in any straight-up engagement so ensure that that doesn't happen.
If you are playing reactive to an opponent who techhed BCS you CAN respond with BCs yourself, but I personally prefer just viking-raven. Until BCs get a critical mass and can just pop your entire army with yamato, i found viking/raven is just a better Air vs Air comp.
As for when to transition, pretty much when you are maxed + have 8 barracks + 2-3 factories (bio/biomech) or 8 factories (mechanic). I usually throw down 3 additional starports (2 reactor 2 techlab) but can vary depending on the game.
EDIT: removed a confusing, misworded bit.
Thanks to you and others for the helpful replies.
I think my composition might be bad then (as I start to add in Marauders, for some reason, and don't have enough Tanks and Marines) and I need to be more active. My macro also leaves a lot to be desired as I move into late game TvT.
On May 10 2014 18:04 aZealot wrote: I find TvT quite hard to figure out. (It can be so hard to end a game for one thing.)
I've been going Banshee first into CC and then Marine/Tank. Some of the Terrans are play against eventually transition into BCs which, so far, has caught me by surprise every time. Is there a good timing at which I should be anticipating this switch? When should I begin building BCs - if I should be building them at all? I usually switch out of Banshees into Medivacs. If so, do I just make Vikings as well and forget about making BCs?
Also, I like your tag Sajaki.
First off, thank you :D
Secondly, BCs are vastly more useful against mechanic (and against really tank-heavy biomech) then they are against marine tank. If you are marine-tank vs marine-tank you don't really need to transition at all, you can just stay on that tech if you can apply enough pressure to prevent your opponent from safely creating the infrastructure/upgrades needed for the extremely expensive switch. In my 1600+ terran games i don't think i've ever built BCs vs marine-tank unless they did a complete late-game transition out of bio entirely for skymech.
Against mech its different. Battlecruisers wreck tank lines (all factory untis, actually) so its often a way for a bionic player to break a mech player. As bio against mech you will want to be the first to get BCs. If he gets an air advantage + BCs + tank blob you are pretty screwed in any straight-up engagement so ensure that that doesn't happen.
If you are playing reactive to an opponent who techhed BCS you CAN respond with BCs yourself, but I personally prefer just viking-raven. Until BCs get a critical mass and can just pop your entire army with yamato, i found viking/raven is just a better Air vs Air comp.
As for when to transition, pretty much when you are maxed + have 8 barracks + 2-3 factories (bio/biomech) or 8 factories (mechanic). I usually throw down 3 additional starports (2 reactor 2 techlab) but can vary depending on the game.
EDIT: removed a confusing, misworded bit.
Thanks to you and others for the helpful replies.
I think my composition might be bad then (as I start to add in Marauders, for some reason, and don't have enough Tanks and Marines) and I need to be more active. My macro also leaves a lot to be desired as I move into late game TvT.
A lot to work on!
if you just want to have something that can break a mech players siege line, then i am quite sure that ravens accomplish that goal much better then bcs do.
1. 1 yamato cannon kills 1 tank for 125 energy. 2 seekermissiles kill 1 tank for 125 energy aswell as dealing splash damage. And a sieged up tank will always be a guarranteed hit! 2. 1 raven costs 2 supply whereas a Bc takes up 6 3. Bc´s are hardcountered by your opponents superiorly upgraded vikings while Ravens are unaffected by them thanks to pdd and the cover offered by your marines. 4. Ravens are much cheaper
1) TvZ Mech: I´m trying to play mech in TvZ nowadays, it feels like its easier(? dont know how to describe it correctly). Is there any Terran wich does have a quite succesfull style that I should take a look on to improve? Any Day9 shows or something similiar? dia/master lvl
2)Bio + a few Tanks in TvP. Any theoretical thoughts on that? I wonder if you would mix 3-5 tanks into the usuall TvP army compostion, how would affect/benefit the game?
Against protoss, when holding proxy gates inside my main, do I want to chase the probe at all or just focus on mining minerals and holding the aggression at my mineral line? I've tried holding by killing the gateway with scvs but it doesn't seem very efficient.
On May 11 2014 20:15 SonGoku wrote: I have 2 questions:
1) TvZ Mech: I´m trying to play mech in TvZ nowadays, it feels like its easier(? dont know how to describe it correctly). Is there any Terran wich does have a quite succesfull style that I should take a look on to improve? Any Day9 shows or something similiar? dia/master lvl
2)Bio + a few Tanks in TvP. Any theoretical thoughts on that? I wonder if you would mix 3-5 tanks into the usuall TvP army compostion, how would affect/benefit the game?
2) bio mech vs P is not viable. Tanks interfer too much with your mobility and kiting, suck vs Zealots, FF your bio, etc. unless you play real mech TvP, the only instance you might want to produce some tanks is against some sort of 1 base gateway pressure if you opened 111 and have no immediate access to stim. see Proleague 11.05. MKP vs Choya.
On May 11 2014 20:15 SonGoku wrote: I have 2 questions:
1) TvZ Mech: I´m trying to play mech in TvZ nowadays, it feels like its easier(? dont know how to describe it correctly). Is there any Terran wich does have a quite succesfull style that I should take a look on to improve? Any Day9 shows or something similiar? dia/master lvl
2)Bio + a few Tanks in TvP. Any theoretical thoughts on that? I wonder if you would mix 3-5 tanks into the usuall TvP army compostion, how would affect/benefit the game?
Mech probably feels easier due to a number of little things, for instance Zergs are more likely to have had more practice vs biomine styles than mech, it is more forgiving in terms of micro and map choice can impact on it's performance than bio styles, etc.
On May 11 2014 22:17 herMan wrote: Posting this again:
Against protoss, when holding proxy gates inside my main, do I want to chase the probe at all or just focus on mining minerals and holding the aggression at my mineral line? I've tried holding by killing the gateway with scvs but it doesn't seem very efficient.
Hey quick question: In TvP what's holding back Marauder Medivac Hellbat Viking Ghost from being more popular? Lately I've been pretty weak in the TvP matchup, and decided to do some experimentation, inspired by ForGGs tvp style. I have to say, its just so, so beefy. Sure its DPS is a lot lower than MMMVG (I stop making marines past 11~ minutes) but it can survive for so long, usually once the colossus fall cleanup is easy. Its durable enough to fight vs storm. Unlike marines which can evaporate en-masse to a nice storm, neither hellbats or marauders die to a single one. Once ghosts are added its just such a sick composition.
Off the top of my head i can see phoenix colossus being a real pain but that is usually scoutable before hellbat production begins, in which case i can just stick to mmmvg.
Edit: Im using the reaper > ebay build. Usually aiming for 3 rax medivacs > 3rd > 5 rax 2 fact 1 port + blue flame > 8 rax 2(3?) fact 2 port. All rax have techlabs past 11~. Marines cut entirely at that point. Just experimenting for now.
I'd deal with Phoenix/Colossi by flooding Vikings. Protoss can't possibly have enough Phoenixes to kill all your Vikings before they kill the Colossi. After that you can add insult to injury by landing your Vikings, turning those Phoenixes into useless flying paper weights. Just make sure your Vikings are firing on the Colossi (select all Vikings, shift+click) as they will engage Phoenixes first on their own.
I think the main issue with Marauder/Hellbat is the lack of mobile damage against Zealots (as Hellbats cannot stim and they take up a lot of space in Medivacs) and Immortals/Archons are going to be tough to deal with until you get a decent number of Ghosts out. Although you trade DPS for HP, you become much more reliable on good engagements and EMP because Hellbats cannot move fast and Immortals/Archons eat Marauders for breakfast.
That said, the higher HP per unit means splash damage is less effective so you can deal with Storm/Colossi more easily, which I know from experience is very difficult to deal with for low and mid level Terrans.
On May 14 2014 06:18 Sajaki wrote: Hey quick question: In TvP what's holding back Marauder Medivac Hellbat Viking Ghost from being more popular? Lately I've been pretty weak in the TvP matchup, and decided to do some experimentation, inspired by ForGGs tvp style. I have to say, its just so, so beefy. Sure its DPS is a lot lower than MMMVG (I stop making marines past 11~ minutes) but it can survive for so long, usually once the colossus fall cleanup is easy. Its durable enough to fight vs storm. Unlike marines which can evaporate en-masse to a nice storm, neither hellbats or marauders die to a single one. Once ghosts are added its just such a sick composition.
Off the top of my head i can see phoenix colossus being a real pain but that is usually scoutable before hellbat production begins, in which case i can just stick to mmmvg.
Edit: Im using the reaper > ebay build. Usually aiming for 3 rax medivacs > 3rd > 5 rax 2 fact 1 port + blue flame > 8 rax 2(3?) fact 2 port. All rax have techlabs past 11~. Marines cut entirely at that point. Just experimenting for now.
There are two 'main' problems with Hellbats, one is that they have a relatively long investment -> return time (You typically need to invest in Blue Flame + at least one extra factory to make them worth it, can be upwards of ~3 minutes where those resources aren't very useful). This allocation of resources also delays your response to Protoss' tech by quite a bit, which means that you'll just straight up die to some timings if you dont respond very quickly (i.e. 3 Collosi Timing is very hard to deal with without a second starport, and that money will have gone into second factory and/or blue flame).
The other main reason is that, because Hellbat's cannot stim, it becomes far more difficult to retreat from engagements you dont want to take or to chase down a Protoss army after a successful engagement. This is the main reason I stopped using this style. Maybe some sort of Servos upgrade style might be able to mitigate this, but I never felt it was worth experimenting with.
As a random side note, when I was playing Protoss for awhile while this style was really popular I actually just started adding Sentries back into my composition, Sentry / Stalker / Collosi / Storm with Zealot + Warp Prism harass was extremely strong vs this style.
how are you guys applying pressure in the early game ? is 3 reaper --> hellion ----> stim + mine + medi pressure before 3rd viable? is hellion banshee still a thing for you? are there any good 1 base pressure builds álà gas first 111 ---> macro that offer a stable game?
My TvZ isn´t shabby ( rank 1 diamond ) but i sometimes feel as if playing early pressure has very little benefits compared to a clean 3 base bio mine timing with some hellion harras.
how are you guys applying pressure in the early game ? is 3 reaper --> hellion ----> stim + mine + medi pressure before 3rd viable? is hellion banshee still a thing for you? are there any good 1 base pressure builds álà gas first 111 ---> macro that offer a stable game?
My TvZ isn´t shabby ( rank 1 diamond ) but i sometimes feel as if playing early pressure has very little benefits compared to a clean 3 base bio mine timing with some hellion harras.
I prefer 2 reaper 8 hellions, being as active as possible, killing queens if they step out of line. Hellion banshee is definitely an option, especially given the new mech into late bio build floating around.
EPT
