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On January 02 2013 11:21 Lazerlike42 wrote:
What is the best way to handle 2 base Colossus production? When the Protoss starts Colossus before starting his third, it puts me in a position where I need to essentially start Viking production before having any medivacs out with a standard gasless FE build.
It's no different from WoL. While I'm only Diamond, imo the best answer is to just take your third and keep Medivac production for a while and threaten to doom drop him. He can't move out until he has 2-3 Colossi and a sizeable Gateway army to support that. If he's stubborn and decides to attack you, you can kill low Colossi counts - specially with few upgrades - with decent splitting and focus firing.
So in other words, imo there's no need to immediately pump out Vikings once you see Colossus on 2 bases because engagements won't happen right away.
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Does anyone know a decent TvP opener for HotS?
I used to go Cloakshee Expand but with the MSC/Stalker harass and the MSC having detection it feels far weaker than it was before.
1 Rax FE feels vulnerable to the same harassment/aggression and I prefer to put some light pressure on Protoss around/before 7-8 minutes to see what Protoss has and potentially do some damage if Protoss was playing greedy.
Given the new emphasis for Skytoss I'm guessing the most versatile option would be a Marine heavy opening.
Are there any Marine (or Marine/Ghost?) openings in TvP that could put on some pressure before any significant AoE is out?
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So in TvZ how are people handling Zerg's with 15+ 3/3 Swarm Hosts with a Bio type build? Ive tried doing some counter attacking and such but they are camped in the middle of the map spawning Locusts 3 screens away to your expansion... It basically only leaves the chance for a base trade it seems.
What about when using Mech? Tanks cant hit them, you can hardly unseige to move forward since the mass onslaught of Locusts is never-ending and banshees just get killed by Hydras that camp on top of the Swarm Hosts? Not to mention when you unseige to get a bit closer, the roaches and hydras stream in with the locusts and kill your tanks... I'm at a total loss.
What are people doing to counter these range 25 units? They are more boring and easy to use than Infestors... It's incredibly boring to play against.
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On January 12 2013 12:48 NKexquisite wrote:
So in TvZ how are people handling Zerg's with 15+ 3/3 Swarm Hosts with a Bio type build? Ive tried doing some counter attacking and such but they are camped in the middle of the map spawning Locusts 3 screens away to your expansion... It basically only leaves the chance for a base trade it seems.
What about when using Mech? Tanks cant hit them, you can hardly unseige to move forward since the mass onslaught of Locusts is never-ending and banshees just get killed by Hydras that camp on top of the Swarm Hosts? Not to mention when you unseige to get a bit closer, the roaches and hydras stream in with the locusts and kill your tanks... I'm at a total loss.
What are people doing to counter these range 25 units? They are more boring and easy to use than Infestors... It's incredibly boring to play against.
Swarm host are very easy to deal with, with any race, all you have to do with bio is multi task drop....few swarm host=useless and you should have not a hard time rolling them with siege tanks. If they go mass swarm host which makes them some what a threat only in 1 area of the map where they lay, they are not mobile, so as a bio player you can just destroy the zerg with multi tasking drops every where to the point the zerg ecom will be gone, zerg spent his gas into swarmhost, he should not have anything else that would be a threat as he should not be able to afford it.
as mech, you could pretty much crush the zerg swarm host force mid game, With Ravens seeker missle going back to slash dmg in the recent patch, I been pushing out with few ravens, large amount of widowmine/tank/thor and just destroying the zerg with 3/3 mech upgrades.
I'm gm in the beta, only time a zerg will go mass swarm host is for shit's n giggles to troll or try it out for fun, Swarm host are pretty bad units and easy to deal with when you exploit their mobility and the huge amount of gas/resources zerg has to commit to swarm host.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
How are people dealing with TvP now with MSC having Time Warp and Purify and Medivac upgrade being taken away? I find it near impossible to do anything early game and am faced with a similar situation late game since I didn't harass or damage their econ in anyway possible.
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On January 13 2013 19:50 Wunder wrote:
How are people dealing with TvP now with MSC having Time Warp and Purify and Medivac upgrade being taken away? I find it near impossible to do anything early game and am faced with a similar situation late game since I didn't harass or damage their econ in anyway possible.
Mech trades quite well with sufficient helbat/thor/tank numbers with viking support against zealot/archon/immortal balls. AS for bio, i also share the same sentiment (although to be fair, T is my weakest race) that bio is difficult to play against a mothership backed army. On another note, the games i've played with bio have been fairly doable assuming that i've successfully emped the mothership before the fight initiates. From what i've experienced, the dangers of time warp is significant, so try to prioritise on emping the mothership before anything else. Once your army is slowed, stutter stepping will be hard and storms will be exponentially more devastating.
As for army comp, try mixing in helbats for added zealot hard counter. Keep in mind to not over-commit because for all intents and purpose they're there for extra damage vs zealots and are very very micro-unfriendly with a bio army (2.25 speed vs the rest of bio). I suggest building up to 10 (max) with the rest on marauder/ghost/marine. Widow mines can be used in place of helbats, but their inherent problem is their lack of sustained damage in fights, which quickly become dead supply of the protoss decides to pull back after detonation. Medivac drops are better than WoL for obvious reasons, try to capitalise on the boost while the main army is occupied. There won't be purify defense if the msc is with the main army and the P has less time to react against drop with Hts.
With early game, my general strategy is to open with factory and starport after FE. Since tanks are alot more powerful with early siege, it enables a safe 3rd to be planted down quickly. I also use these tanks for fake 1 1 1 or defense. With an eco lead, i typically go for fast bio upgrades with a good number of bunkers depending on what i scanned (obviously more for immortal based play). If you want to pressure with tanks, it's possible but do not overcommit. You should always siege outside purify cannon range and pull back when you see enough immortals. This neat move deters probe production and diverts boost to military units.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Thanks for the reply, I will attempt to work in a few mech games if I can. Good idea about the Hellbat, I just realized with the patch they you don't need to get blue flame for them so I suppose I can make use of my redundant factory. Would you recommend deselecting the hellbats during battle so they just fire, instead of accidentally cancelling their attack animation while you're stutter stepping with the rest of your bio?
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On January 13 2013 20:06 Wunder wrote:
Thanks for the reply, I will attempt to work in a few mech games if I can. Good idea about the Hellbat, I just realized with the patch they you don't need to get blue flame for them so I suppose I can make use of my redundant factory. Would you recommend deselecting the hellbats during battle so they just fire, instead of accidentally cancelling their attack animation while you're stutter stepping with the rest of your bio?
To honest, my apm is around 150 so i have a hard time controlling ghosts,mmm while macroing and sniping sneaky templars. Because of such limitations i typically let the helbats attack on their own and deselect soon as the battle starts. There's one good reason for this as well, the disparity between helbat ms and attack speed means that if you group them the marine/marauders would be dealing less damage than otherwise. However, if you can stutter step everything in multiple control groups and adjust micro based on their attack speed, you should by all means do it maximise output. But yeah, playing Bio is pretty hard in Hots, probably harder than WoL.
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On January 07 2013 23:54 Thezzy wrote:
Does anyone know a decent TvP opener for HotS?
I used to go Cloakshee Expand but with the MSC/Stalker harass and the MSC having detection it feels far weaker than it was before.
1 Rax FE feels vulnerable to the same harassment/aggression and I prefer to put some light pressure on Protoss around/before 7-8 minutes to see what Protoss has and potentially do some damage if Protoss was playing greedy.
Given the new emphasis for Skytoss I'm guessing the most versatile option would be a Marine heavy opening.
Are there any Marine (or Marine/Ghost?) openings in TvP that could put on some pressure before any significant AoE is out?
111 Opening after FE is very good in dealing with all types of threats now. Go for raxless FE and you'll be safe against most types of pressure. Reactor the starport and add a techlab on the factory. Focus on building tanks, vikings and marines until your economy is good enough and build a 3rd cc in your main around 8 min. The instant siege gives T better defense against most types of all in and the older 6 gate all in can be completely shut down. THere are variations to that said opening as well, if you want to take more risks, reactoring factories instead of sport for mines are reallllly good against immortal builds early game map control. Also DO NOT NEGLECT ur eng bay, build it early. You need turrets to defend vs vr/phoenixes/oracles and dts.
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Hi guys
I want to switch from Zerg to Terran for HotS. I'm diamond.
What are some good openers to use in TvX? I'm willing to try mech out, but I'd prefer bio-play. I'm a no-frills kind of player, I either want to all-in with T1 units or play a macro game and crush direct engagements
I have no idea how to play Terran aside from 3raxing in 2v2
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What are Terrans doing to counter greedy Protoss in HotS?
I feel with the MSC and Sentries that aggression off 2rax is a dead build. I can penetrate the natural but then the Toss just lets me take the shields off his Nexus (mainly to buy a few WG cycles) and will Overcharge the Nexus and box me in with Sentries and crush my army. So I trade a bunch of supply for Nexus shields. Knowing this happens it seems the Toss are even more aggressive with neglecting WG cycles to fast tech their upgrades and move straight into Colossus. I'm having issues ><
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how do you push forward with lets say 10 tanks vs 9 swarmhosts? unsiege just a view tanks and take it slow? my problem here is , that the zerg just relocates the swarmhosts and he buys himself so much time, that he can techswitch. master t here.
always when i go mech, they keep me inbase, or away from their base and transition into broodlords. it seems so damn strong to me. Just tell me how you beat it or what your timnings are pls.
I am talking about mechonly play. I wanna give it a try even if i don´t like it
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Hi everyone - I'm looking for up to date (balance patch 12) strong opening build orders (bio and mech) that apply pressure with macro/expos behind them. Any input is appreciated~!
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Question about TvP and Oracles in HOTS:
1 rax fe into 3 rax, starport, +1 2 medivac timing vs gate, core, nexus, stargate, gate, gate (or 1 base oracle: gate, core, starport, gate, gate)
It seems that the starport drops ~5:00, 1st oracle pops ~6:45. The timings could be a bit slower in our games compared to higher levels (I'm dia T and my buddy is low masters P). Normally I would do a scan ~9:00-9:30 to see what tech P is going for. That is way to late to turret mineral lines as a response. Scanning ~6:00 is to early to see which tech path P is going (I think?)
So, what do you do? I don't think blind turreting both mineral lines is the proper way to play. Dropping 2 scans before 10 minutes seems excessive, but is that just something you have to do? Or, is it better to just blind turret since 2 scans costs more than 2 blind turrets?
Do you think 2 blind turrets in the mineral lines is going to be the difference between winning and losing vs (robo/blink/6 or 8 gateway) aggression early? I'm of the opinion that those 2 extra turrets are going to be a game ending decision if you guess wrong. How are you guys scouting and defending against oracles right now? What should I be doing, and how should I be doing it?
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On January 24 2013 12:27 Joedaddy wrote:
Question about TvP and Oracles in HOTS:
1 rax fe into 3 rax, starport, +1 2 medivac timing vs gate, core, nexus, stargate, gate, gate (or 1 base oracle: gate, core, starport, gate, gate)
It seems that the starport drops ~5:00, 1st oracle pops ~6:45. The timings could be a bit slower in our games compared to higher levels (I'm dia T and my buddy is low masters P). Normally I would do a scan ~9:00-9:30 to see what tech P is going for. That is way to late to turret mineral lines as a response. Scanning ~6:00 is to early to see which tech path P is going (I think?)
So, what do you do? I don't think blind turreting both mineral lines is the proper way to play. Dropping 2 scans before 10 minutes seems excessive, but is that just something you have to do? Or, is it better to just blind turret since 2 scans costs more than 2 blind turrets?
Do you think 2 blind turrets in the mineral lines is going to be the difference between winning and losing vs (robo/blink/6 or 8 gateway) aggression early? I'm of the opinion that those 2 extra turrets are going to be a game ending decision if you guess wrong. How are you guys scouting and defending against oracles right now? What should I be doing, and how should I be doing it?
making a read on what toss is doing before 10 minutes isn't easy but it's doable. keeping track of proxy pylons and general ground movement helps to tell you if it's fast air or fast ground aggression. scanning at 6:00 does seem early but 9-9:30 seems way too late. i'd say 7:00-7:30 seems more appropriate. unless you actually see something that tells you either what tech he's going (observer, immortal), that he is going to push you (proxy pylon, lots of sentries, lots of stalkers), or he's playing greedy (3rd nexus) i wouldn't delay you scan for too long.
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Hi my beloved TL People,
i just lost a TvZ against a pretty good Zerg player ( he said he was hight master in WOL/ plat in Hots). I was a Top8 Dia in Wol and Plat. in Hots.
I open kinda greedy with CC first, but due to windowmines you can do this quiet safe in Hots. I was max around 17 min with 2/2 upgrade Bio/hellbat tank army. I won the first fight until his Ultralisk arrived into the fight. He played infestor, Queen, Ultralisk in the late game. The Ullis never die due to transfuse. I tried to swith into Battlecruiser but it did nothing.
I havent played alot against this unitcompositon and i am kinda lost.
I harrased i a little, but never did big damage cause he defended well! What should be the right unitcomposition against that? Raven, Windowmines?
He said i should go ghost, but from my expericance the suck against zerg.
I guess i should have harrased more, but as most of you know, its very hard to drop on alot of places and keep expanding and macroing at the same time .
Here is my replay any tips or advise are welcome.
http://drop.sc/298498
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On January 25 2013 21:36 DerFreemind wrote:Hi my beloved TL People, i just lost a TvZ against a pretty good Zerg player ( he said he was hight master in WOL/ plat in Hots). I was a Top8 Dia in Wol and Plat. in Hots. I open kinda greedy with CC first, but due to windowmines you can do this quiet safe in Hots. I was max around 17 min with 2/2 upgrade Bio/hellbat tank army. I won the first fight until his Ultralisk arrived into the fight. He played infestor, Queen, Ultralisk in the late game. The Ullis never die due to transfuse. I tried to swith into Battlecruiser but it did nothing. I havent played alot against this unitcompositon and i am kinda lost. I harrased i a little, but never did big damage cause he defended well! What should be the right unitcomposition against that? Raven, Windowmines? He said i should go ghost, but from my expericance the suck against zerg. I guess i should have harrased more, but as most of you know, its very hard to drop on alot of places and keep expanding and macroing at the same time . Here is my replay any tips or advise are welcome. http://drop.sc/298498
Wol EU Master T here, i'm going through the replay right now. Here are my thoughts, be warned. It may seem harsh but this is how i analyze my own games. So i wish nothing but to help you.
- Expo on low ground? You will die to a 6-pool. And you deserve any loss through cheese because of your building placement.
- 6:00. I see you constructing too many supply deposts. You are not using that supply for a long time, that money could've been used for getting structures or units up way earlier.
- 7:30. 1) No scouting done 2) Very unoptimal building placement 3) no upgrades on the way 4) very little mount of units. Combine this with the lack of scouting and you deserve any loss that comes your way up at this point.
- 9:00. Dispite playing greedy, the Zerg is out-macro'ing you. If he felt like it he could've been on 4 base or outright destroy your third with a ling/bling bust. Your minimal covering would not have saved you.
- 10:00 heavy supply block, idle structures, tons of minerals in the bank.
- 12:00 you finally start producing your MM army, that took a long time to set up.
- 13:30 Zerg gave you 10 free muta's because he didn't micro. High masters? He lies. His skill does not even match low masters.
- 14:00 more huge supply blocks incoming, for a very fast natural and third while playing a turtle style. Your fourth is very late.
-From this point on i can continue to write on your macro "fails" but it is clear to me that it would be way to much. On to your decision making. -
- You drop @ 16 minute and pass a lot of overlords. Always clean up overlords if you can.
- He has an observer in plain view for a couple of minutes, you should've taken it out.
- No watch tower control in the early - mid game. At least try to get them.
- You easily have the money but: You do not start 3-3, get tons of orbitals, get a lot of production buildings up or invest in a higher tech.
- Terrible engagement. No prior scouting, no leading the way with a single marine, no scans used for optimal positioning and most important of all: No micro.
- After you've fend him off because this Zerg is terrible as well, you chased him down. Do not do this in TvZ, just kill his economy next time.
- 20:00, you spend a full minute trying to get units in a dropship. Get your micro handled, this should be done way faster.
- 24:00 you threw away your army to kill 1 base. Very bad trade. Only trade this if you are way ahead, 2+ base and tons of production avaible. Never throw away your army for a base because a couter attack will kill you.
- 25:00 Zerg counter attack and kills you, as said above.
- 4-6 BC"s are bad, as you just lost them to queens. BC's are bad against zerg anyway but if you are going BC you must get10+ with energy for yamato cannon to make them work.
Final thoughts:
- Get your macro fixed search a build and execute it. Watch your supply, do not build to many depots at once and do not get supply blocked.
- Train your Micro and train your engagements.
- I want you to state your goal. If you are left alone, with kind of army composition do you push? When do you push? A standard time or do you do an anti-timing? For example, when the zerg takes his third.
- This Zerg is not masters i doubt even diamond league. Zerg probably belongs in platinum WoL.
Have fun with this feedback.
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A few questions:
Is the 10 minute MMM push still viable with the mothership core available to P?
I am interested in changing the MMM push into a MM + battle hellion push. Viable?
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Wol EU Master T here, i'm going through the replay right now. Here are my thoughts, be warned. It may seem harsh but this is how i analyze my own games. So i wish nothing but to help you.
- Expo on low ground? You will die to a 6-pool. And you deserve any loss through cheese because of your building placement.
- 6:00. I see you constructing too many supply deposts. You are not using that supply for a long time, that money could've been used for getting structures or units up way earlier.
- 7:30. 1) No scouting done 2) Very unoptimal building placement 3) no upgrades on the way 4) very little mount of units. Combine this with the lack of scouting and you deserve any loss that comes your way up at this point.
- 9:00. Dispite playing greedy, the Zerg is out-macro'ing you. If he felt like it he could've been on 4 base or outright destroy your third with a ling/bling bust. Your minimal covering would not have saved you.
- 10:00 heavy supply block, idle structures, tons of minerals in the bank.
- 12:00 you finally start producing your MM army, that took a long time to set up.
- 13:30 Zerg gave you 10 free muta's because he didn't micro. High masters? He lies. His skill does not even match low masters.
- 14:00 more huge supply blocks incoming, for a very fast natural and third while playing a turtle style. Your fourth is very late.
-From this point on i can continue to write on your macro "fails" but it is clear to me that it would be way to much. On to your decision making. -
- You drop @ 16 minute and pass a lot of overlords. Always clean up overlords if you can.
- He has an observer in plain view for a couple of minutes, you should've taken it out.
- No watch tower control in the early - mid game. At least try to get them.
- You easily have the money but: You do not start 3-3, get tons of orbitals, get a lot of production buildings up or invest in a higher tech.
- Terrible engagement. No prior scouting, no leading the way with a single marine, no scans used for optimal positioning and most important of all: No micro.
- After you've fend him off because this Zerg is terrible as well, you chased him down. Do not do this in TvZ, just kill his economy next time.
- 20:00, you spend a full minute trying to get units in a dropship. Get your micro handled, this should be done way faster.
- 24:00 you threw away your army to kill 1 base. Very bad trade. Only trade this if you are way ahead, 2+ base and tons of production avaible. Never throw away your army for a base because a couter attack will kill you.
- 25:00 Zerg counter attack and kills you, as said above.
- 4-6 BC"s are bad, as you just lost them to queens. BC's are bad against zerg anyway but if you are going BC you must get10+ with energy for yamato cannon to make them work.
Final thoughts:
- Get your macro fixed search a build and execute it. Watch your supply, do not build to many depots at once and do not get supply blocked.
- Train your Micro and train your engagements.
- I want you to state your goal. If you are left alone, with kind of army composition do you push? When do you push? A standard time or do you do an anti-timing? For example, when the zerg takes his third.
- This Zerg is not masters i doubt even diamond league. Zerg probably belongs in platinum WoL.
Have fun with this feedback.[/QUOTE]
Thx for this ! Nothing wrong with hard critic:D! I think my opening is quiet ok. 6 Pool is not really a issue, there are some mirco tricks which you can defend that pretty ok. I very rarely lost with the opening to early attacks. Other than that your are abolutly right! Some very good tips in this! Thx again.
I tried this new playing from replay function out with a friend! Works great!!! We played around a little, i shouldnt have gone into air at all! Raven wouldnt have worked as well...cause it takes to long until HSM shots at the zerg army. But Winow mines seems to be the anwser!
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On January 26 2013 01:55 ILosethenOP wrote:
A few questions:
Is the 10 minute MMM push still viable with the mothership core available to P?
I am interested in changing the MMM push into a MM + battle hellion push. Viable?
The 11 minute MM push is still viable. I'd say that almost nothing has changed and it hasn't gotten any easier for Toss to hold these pushes off. At least in Masters Hots where i currently play.
I'd say that MM+BHellions would also work, the only thing is that i've never tried doing that without medivacs so experiment and you'll see.
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EPT
