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@Stingart
Wol EU Master T here, i'm going through the replay right now. Here are my thoughts, be warned. It may seem harsh but this is how i analyze my own games. So i wish nothing but to help you.
- Expo on low ground? You will die to a 6-pool. And you deserve any loss through cheese because of your building placement.
- 6:00. I see you constructing too many supply deposts. You are not using that supply for a long time, that money could've been used for getting structures or units up way earlier.
- 7:30. 1) No scouting done 2) Very unoptimal building placement 3) no upgrades on the way 4) very little mount of units.
Could you provide a replay with good Building Placement? Or can you say some gernerall rules in terms of buildingplacement. Never thought about it!
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On January 26 2013 03:04 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 01:55 ILosethenOP wrote:
A few questions:
Is the 10 minute MMM push still viable with the mothership core available to P?
I am interested in changing the MMM push into a MM + battle hellion push. Viable? The 11 minute MM push is still viable. I'd say that almost nothing has changed and it hasn't gotten any easier for Toss to hold these pushes off. At least in Masters Hots where i currently play. I'd say that MM+BHellions would also work, the only thing is that i've never tried doing that without medivacs so experiment and you'll see.
if your push is coming at 11 i'd say it isn't viable in wings of liberty either
i feel that battle hellions are a waste of resources, unless they're just something you happen to be able to make after opening hellion drop and saving them or something. battle hellions are not something you should consciously dump cash into imho, its just too low in range and most protoss will focus them or isolate them with forcefields before they come in with zealots. experimenting is good, and i can definitely see them working if you were able to work in a bio push at the front with a speed drop of the hellions in his main or something. the problem with getting these units so early is that you really never need an armory at the early stages in the game where the battle hellion is effective, so you end up delaying other things and your minerals are going into units that dont share ups.
I think the best style against protoss right now is the style byun was using a while ago, the style that opens with some hellions, and then goes into 3 CC 5raxes, 2 factories and 1 starport for MMMTV. with the new mines, bio mech is a lot better vs protoss, and with the new medivacs, if you get attacked whiley ou're dropping him you can boost and unload it quickly, whereas in the past your medivac still needed 10 more seconds to reach his base and counter attack. the medivacs are now able to drop protoss a lot easier, and you can save your units way easier as well, meaning that small drop harass while you build a large core MMMtank army is more viable.
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On January 26 2013 03:37 DerFreemind wrote:
@Stingart
Wol EU Master T here, i'm going through the replay right now. Here are my thoughts, be warned. It may seem harsh but this is how i analyze my own games. So i wish nothing but to help you.
- Expo on low ground? You will die to a 6-pool. And you deserve any loss through cheese because of your building placement.
- 6:00. I see you constructing too many supply deposts. You are not using that supply for a long time, that money could've been used for getting structures or units up way earlier.
- 7:30. 1) No scouting done 2) Very unoptimal building placement 3) no upgrades on the way 4) very little mount of units.
Could you provide a replay with good Building Placement? Or can you say some gernerall rules in terms of buildingplacement. Never thought about it!
http://www.gomtv.net/2013gsls1/vod/71475
bomber vs sniper g 1
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70603
maru vs effort g 1
this second one is a great exampel
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Haven't played for a long while and just got my beta key. I was a mid masters terran back in WoL but haven't touched it since Summer, back when the queen range patch hit.
Getting back and going to try to get a bit of a head start now in HotS and I have no idea how to play. What is the meta right now? What's viable? What's OP? Right now I'm doing really gimmicky stuff like no gas 6 rax to get a feel for the game again but I want to develop a playstyle. Is there any compendium of good HotS build orders and strats?
Thanks alot!
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Hi, I have no clue about how to play TvT. Tanks dominate the ground. Turrets/Vikings prevent drops. What are we supposed to do ?
Secure expansions and turtle to go Battle-Cruiser ?
Would appreciate replays.
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How do i deal with mass swarm host late game? These things with +3/3 easily destroy my mech army.
Siege tanks can be good but it's hard for me to get in a good position before they spawn units.
I tried using a few Ravens and Banshees but zergs get air units and the ground battles are not cost efficient at all.
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Im really confused as to the state of TvP
from WoL to hots
T got
hellbats - not really cutting it vs toss for me, any amount of archons DESTROY them.
tanks seige free- havent been meching vs toss I just get rolled over every time.
reaper is different- still useless
widowmines- havent found a good use for them, toss always has observers
P got
Nexus cannon and Slow on new Mothership core: both of these abilities are amazing. completely stop early pushes to the point that its not even worth trying them
Oracles- Lol.
Tempest- meh.
cheaper DT's so they are no longer all in even in early stages of the game
Better void rays
I am freaking terrified of the first 12 mins of the matchup, then I usually get slaughtered by collsi/storm later. I really have no idea how to appoach this.
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has anyone tried the good old marauder hellbat allin vs zerg??
zergs are used to holding it with roachling but i guess hellbats are better against roachling.
if zerg makes banelings then transform into hellions :O
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On January 29 2013 14:01 ThePlayer33 wrote:
has anyone tried the good old marauder hellbat allin vs zerg??
zergs are used to holding it with roachling but i guess hellbats are better against roachling.
if zerg makes banelings then transform into hellions :O
I used this in a last game vs a zerg and it worked pretty well. Basically hellbats form an enourmous meatshield for the marauders to keep their dps up. Fact is you can hit a timing right before infestors with a decent sized army, also since hellbats aren't armoured they take less damage from spine crawlers.
TvP though
I tried a bio+ghost+medivac+hellbat approach, and all went well since he went templar.
However he started to mass up tempests about halfway into the game and I fell into a dark hole.
I have NO idea how to counter this.
marines - you can't reach the tempests cos of storm and zealots
vikings - they're a joke vs tempests unless you have about 2,5x times as much as the toss has tempests, also storm makes it hard to reach them without having to spread perfectly which gives the tempests to get some extra shots off.
thors - I didn't get a chance to try them, but afaik tempests are supposed to counter them anyway.
there's nothing else that can hit air and isn't hard countered by tempests.
At one point I even got a pretty big squad of ghost+marine under his tempests to prevent him from storming, and even then I didn't have enough dps to take them all down..
Anyone have any clue how to deal with tempests in TvP?
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I am getting absolutely rocked trying to play standard TvP at (hots plat, prob around master WoL) level.
If anyone has some replays of standard, 10 mins mmm push style I would love to see it, particularly if the game goes long enough that the toss has 3+ bases and HT and collsi, because I am getting smashed at this point even if I am 1-2 bases ahead
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On January 30 2013 09:16 Dagan159 wrote:
I am getting absolutely rocked trying to play standard TvP at (hots plat, prob around master WoL) level.
If anyone has some replays of standard, 10 mins mmm push style I would love to see it, particularly if the game goes long enough that the toss has 3+ bases and HT and collsi, because I am getting smashed at this point even if I am 1-2 bases ahead
I think its pretty much the same as WoL TvP. The only thing is you have to watch out for different versions of all ins and aggression with the MSC. But if you are able to deal with those the only units you have to worry about that are different in HotS are Oracle and Tempest. Just put one turret in each of your mineral lines instead of one at your front when you get your Ebay. It's only 100 more minerals and keeps you safe from Oracles.
That's the only thing I can think of. Here's a guide for WoL TvP. If it's something that is different in HotS that you're having issues with could you post a replay?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=289877
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On January 30 2013 10:20 Buff345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 09:16 Dagan159 wrote:
I am getting absolutely rocked trying to play standard TvP at (hots plat, prob around master WoL) level.
If anyone has some replays of standard, 10 mins mmm push style I would love to see it, particularly if the game goes long enough that the toss has 3+ bases and HT and collsi, because I am getting smashed at this point even if I am 1-2 bases ahead I think its pretty much the same as WoL TvP. The only thing is you have to watch out for different versions of all ins and aggression with the MSC. But if you are able to deal with those the only units you have to worry about that are different in HotS are Oracle and Tempest. Just put one turret in each of your mineral lines instead of one at your front when you get your Ebay. It's only 100 more minerals and keeps you safe from Oracles. That's the only thing I can think of. Here's a guide for WoL TvP. If it's something that is different in HotS that you're having issues with could you post a replay? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=289877
basically my 10 min push/drops are falling flat because of the nexus cannon, and agiasnt good toss I end up doing absolutely NO damage. Then I get put in lategame and Ive never been able to do well here if Im not FAR ahead. when I try to EMP templars my ghosts usually get owned by collsi because toss keeps his temps very far back. I was wondering if there was any easier to execute hots strats I could inclue in my play. Any tips on managing the fight vs lategame toss?
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how do i beat mass swarm host when im going mech?
do i slowly hold with tanks and try to not get pushed back as i tech to bc/viking/raven behind? then i think u got the air covered so flood hellions back in if he tries any hydra crap
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I think the Raven is the most exciting unit (and it's old!) in HotS. I've been using it to harass mineral lines to and it's quite fun. Been practicing macro so I can't say much about the match ups. Except Marines are imba, but it's the only imba unit we got, so we have to go kill people early game. Either that or we transition to Sky Terran, which is okay of TvZ and TvT, but going Sky for Protoss? I think not.
TvP: Now I do a straight marine opener because zealot/immortal/archon eats everything else. And he's got 2 ways to get there too (DTs and HTs)! And both are annoying to deal with early game. Hellbats aren't the meatshields i hoped they'd be and widow mines are a great little annoyance but good for only defending small drops and light harass. An oracle can survive one hit so it takes two widow mines to defend on oracle early game. Plus, these days, Toss likes to move out with the mothership core, which is a bit of a minor annoyance. With tempests (Toss I've played with admitted it's a bad unit), sky Toss is almost unstoppable. Protoss now has so many options, I feel like it's more versatile than Terran.
TvZ: Swarm hosts are annoying. Especially in large numbers. Add Vipers to that army and it's a worse. The swarmlings are tougher than zerglings! WTH! Time it properly with corrupters brood lords and zerglings... lol. 10 tanks cannot kill the swarmlings of 8 swarmhosts.
TvT: Same old same old. All about positioning. Bio or Mech switch to air, and the bigger air army wins.
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On January 30 2013 11:42 ke_ivan wrote:
I think the Raven is the most exciting unit (and it's old!) in HotS. I've been using it to harass mineral lines to and it's quite fun. Been practicing macro so I can't say much about the match ups. Except Marines are imba, but it's the only imba unit we got, so we have to go kill people early game. Either that or we transition to Sky Terran, which is okay of TvZ and TvT, but going Sky for Protoss? I think not.
TvP: Now I do a straight marine opener because zealot/immortal/archon eats everything else. And he's got 2 ways to get there too (DTs and HTs)! And both are annoying to deal with early game. Hellbats aren't the meatshields i hoped they'd be and widow mines are a great little annoyance but good for only defending small drops and light harass. An oracle can survive one hit so it takes two widow mines to defend on oracle early game. Plus, these days, Toss likes to move out with the mothership core, which is a bit of a minor annoyance. With tempests (Toss I've played with admitted it's a bad unit), sky Toss is almost unstoppable. Protoss now has so many options, I feel like it's more versatile than Terran.
TvZ: Swarm hosts are annoying. Especially in large numbers. Add Vipers to that army and it's a worse. The swarmlings are tougher than zerglings! WTH! Time it properly with corrupters brood lords and zerglings... lol. 10 tanks cannot kill the swarmlings of 8 swarmhosts.
TvT: Same old same old. All about positioning. Bio or Mech switch to air, and the bigger air army wins.
Im having a real problem using the imba marines these days
widow mines + tanks
collsi + storms
defiler + swarm host + banelings
good options for all 3 races for shutting down our imba unit =(
turrets own oracles hard, I usually get 1in each mineral line and 1 to cover production. simultaneously helps vs DT"s which toss are getting more and more fond of.
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Is there a safe and effective way to open against someone in TvT now that Hellbat/Medivac openers are so popular? It seems really hard to safely FE again now that this push exists.
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Any counters to Templar + Tempest ???
Anyone? lol
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On January 31 2013 03:07 Tenks wrote:
Is there a safe and effective way to open against someone in TvT now that Hellbat/Medivac openers are so popular? It seems really hard to safely FE again now that this push exists.
Sees this is new meta. I just had a guy hold it with early tanks and bio, pref maurs. I think the ideal way to hold would be conc shell and just kite like a madman.
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even without conc shell u can kite them .. i usually scen with 2nd scan in tvt .. u can see it coming then ..2 rauders enough to hold also u should position rines to intercept the medivac if possible or atleast damage it so it cant heal the hellions
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On February 01 2013 10:11 AcidKing wrote:
even without conc shell u can kite them .. i usually scen with 2nd scan in tvt .. u can see it coming then ..2 rauders enough to hold also u should position rines to intercept the medivac if possible or atleast damage it so it cant heal the hellions
I feel that if you try to get marines to intercept the Medivac, the Hellbats are going to focus the marines. And the fact that you have to evacuate your SCVs from your main/nat and micro your marauders, you have lost a lot of mining time
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EPT
