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On January 30 2013 11:42 ke_ivan wrote:
I think the Raven is the most exciting unit (and it's old!) in HotS. I've been using it to harass mineral lines to and it's quite fun. Been practicing macro so I can't say much about the match ups. Except Marines are imba, but it's the only imba unit we got, so we have to go kill people early game. Either that or we transition to Sky Terran, which is okay of TvZ and TvT, but going Sky for Protoss? I think not.
TvP: Now I do a straight marine opener because zealot/immortal/archon eats everything else. And he's got 2 ways to get there too (DTs and HTs)! And both are annoying to deal with early game. Hellbats aren't the meatshields i hoped they'd be and widow mines are a great little annoyance but good for only defending small drops and light harass. An oracle can survive one hit so it takes two widow mines to defend on oracle early game. Plus, these days, Toss likes to move out with the mothership core, which is a bit of a minor annoyance. With tempests (Toss I've played with admitted it's a bad unit), sky Toss is almost unstoppable. Protoss now has so many options, I feel like it's more versatile than Terran.
TvZ: Swarm hosts are annoying. Especially in large numbers. Add Vipers to that army and it's a worse. The swarmlings are tougher than zerglings! WTH! Time it properly with corrupters brood lords and zerglings... lol. 10 tanks cannot kill the swarmlings of 8 swarmhosts.
TvT: Same old same old. All about positioning. Bio or Mech switch to air, and the bigger air army wins.
Z these days are becoming harder and harder to defeat. If mass swarm hosts are becoming a problem, a simple counter to that in a meching composition is the hellbat. Position them infront of your tanks. Hellbats usually melt these units if supported alongside by tanks and should take a minimal amount of damage. As for the actual swarm host itself, better players consistently relocate them, so killing the damage source will be difficult. This is when banshees come in. A tip for you, opening with 111 after expo does wonders in producing soft counters. If you open with a banshee harass, they work well with a mech comp in stopping mass swarm hosts in the sense that you can damage/kill them while they're burrowing. This forces the Zerg player to move back to the point where you can advance your attacking army and take out the expo.
Another important point to note is the relative immobility of mass Swarm hosts to bio. Bio mech is my general go to strategy in TvZ. With this, tanks provide good support fire to wittle down the swarmlings while you can drop 3 3 bio in their base and proceed to kill their expos. Also, if they do send reinforcements to defend, do a bigger drop. Swarm hosts cannot keep up the speed of a mass drop especially when they're aimed at your expansion. It's worth nothing that your main army at this point could be weaker than usual, so having a PF or several bunkers at the expansion is instrumental. When you fight against SHs it's better to play defensively while harassing, this forces Shs to be pulled back, giving you more map control. Without infestors, Z air is weaker than it was in WoL. If you're not winning the air battle pre-emptively build an extra starport. You should gain air superiority with better preparation, to which you would only really have to deal with swarmlings. Add a raven or two for PDD, which should let your vikings conquer those corruptors.
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On January 12 2013 12:48 NKexquisite wrote:
So in TvZ how are people handling Zerg's with 15+ 3/3 Swarm Hosts with a Bio type build? Ive tried doing some counter attacking and such but they are camped in the middle of the map spawning Locusts 3 screens away to your expansion... It basically only leaves the chance for a base trade it seems.
What about when using Mech? Tanks cant hit them, you can hardly unseige to move forward since the mass onslaught of Locusts is never-ending and banshees just get killed by Hydras that camp on top of the Swarm Hosts? Not to mention when you unseige to get a bit closer, the roaches and hydras stream in with the locusts and kill your tanks... I'm at a total loss.
What are people doing to counter these range 25 units? They are more boring and easy to use than Infestors... It's incredibly boring to play against.
If you don't have a techlab attached to your starport, an easy way to deal with the actual swarm host with bio is to do marauder doom drops. Load several medivacs with marauders and do a self unloading drop, scan and focus fire. This punishes players who leave their swarm hosts burrowed. However, the major risk is losing your entire drop force, so don't expect a good trade if players support SHs well.
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On January 29 2013 12:07 Dagan159 wrote:
Im really confused as to the state of TvP
from WoL to hots
T got
hellbats - not really cutting it vs toss for me, any amount of archons DESTROY them.
tanks seige free- havent been meching vs toss I just get rolled over every time.
reaper is different- still useless
widowmines- havent found a good use for them, toss always has observers
P got
Nexus cannon and Slow on new Mothership core: both of these abilities are amazing. completely stop early pushes to the point that its not even worth trying them
Oracles- Lol.
Tempest- meh.
cheaper DT's so they are no longer all in even in early stages of the game
Better void rays
I am freaking terrified of the first 12 mins of the matchup, then I usually get slaughtered by collsi/storm later. I really have no idea how to appoach this.
I play TvP with an FE > 4~6 rax build. Completely dependable on what i scout, it naturally flows in to a 10 minute push with medivacs on they way. Transitions into MMM + Ghost to finish the job.
Vikings and aditional starports are reactionary based on scouting. Once the medivacs arrive, i am constantly poking for weaknesses at the front and dropping or at least trying possible angles to drop. Even if it doesn't do damage, it gets a lot of information. I sometimes scan the area i feel he's trying to protect.
The MU doesn't scare me, i know any loss is my own fault.
- 3 marines stop MSC harass. This comes after you can set up a bunker+1 marine at the front, you're safe against this.
- 5 marines stop an oracle.
- 8 marines stop 2 oracles.
Relax when you go in a TvP, or in a match in general. Realize that early, mid and late game T is fine in HOTS. Drops are really where its at, the medivac boost is very powerful, saving your own units have a higher priority than doing damage. This was a huge realisation i had, learn it as well. TvX is about unit cost efficiency, if you do 0, you better have lost 0.
The reasoning i use for not trade your army for his economy is this: 1 marine for 1 probe is not a good deal unless you are absolutely safe. Trading evenly wil set you behind. His economy is there to sustain an army that can destroy yours. If you trade your units for his economy. Guess what? He suddenly has no need for a good army to kill you. Thus he doesn't need his economy and he will use his army to clean you up.
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I am trying to 1 Rax FE like I did in WoL, but I get wrecked by oracle builds.
1. TvP
What should I be doing to handle oracles, they seem OP, but probably only because I don't know how to handle them. I have tried putting 5 marines in anticipation of the oracle, but then when 2 oracles come I need 8 marines, and that leaves my natural very vulnerable. I have lost games where I have had 8 marines in my base to defend , and then he just sends the oracles plus warp ins at my natural to bust me, and the 8 marines in my base did nothing. I am not sure if I should just accept that I need to throw down 2 missile turrets per base, 400 mins....seems a bit much.
2. TvT
How to stop Hellbat drop? How many units do I need, and which units do I need to stop 4 hell bats+medivac?
Whats the standard opener? everyone is going 11 gas , 13 rax reaper, so I just usually get a marauder or defensive reaper then expand
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On February 03 2013 16:31 patronage wrote:
I am trying to 1 Rax FE like I did in WoL, but I get wrecked by oracle builds.
1. TvP
What should I be doing to handle oracles, they seem OP, but probably only because I don't know how to handle them. I have tried putting 5 marines in anticipation of the oracle, but then when 2 oracles come I need 8 marines, and that leaves my natural very vulnerable. I have lost games where I have had 8 marines in my base to defend , and then he just sends the oracles plus warp ins at my natural to bust me, and the 8 marines in my base did nothing. I am not sure if I should just accept that I need to throw down 2 missile turrets per base, 400 mins....seems a bit much.
2. TvT
How to stop Hellbat drop? How many units do I need, and which units do I need to stop 4 hell bats+medivac?
Whats the standard opener? everyone is going 11 gas , 13 rax reaper, so I just usually get a marauder or defensive reaper then expand
Stop doing 1rax FE!!! Its TOO greedy! For sure you can still doing it,but put the 2nd CC in the main first and scout your enemy and if you see him expand as well put it in your natural.For TvP you need ebay at 6:00 and the turret in each mineral line before 7:00.3 marines with the turret and you stop any harass.Oracles attack marines and turret if not manually targeting workers and if they do,will lose both of them,but yeah,without turret its almost impossible to stop.
TvT.
A viking,turret and focusing medivac con 3-4 marines stop the Hellbat drop.If you dont wanna make turret just put 2-3 widow mines.They will kill the medivac before it lands the hellbats.
The reaper is only for scout.He is totally inoffensive and can be stoped with only workers and 1 marine.The openings are still a lot as always in TvT and you must try scout to know how to response.Thats why people do Reaper and send him to enemys base.
11 gas is tto early.Everybody is going 12 rax 13 gas I think.You dont need the marauder to be safe
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Has anyone tried a revamped 1-1-1 push in TvP? Siege tanks without upgrades and widow mines seem like it would do wonders for the push. Or does the new Nexus Cannon cancel out the push?
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I usually go for a 1 rax gasless expand. Protoss has been doing a nasty build where they rush with a zelot, stalker, and MSC, off of one gate. It is hard to stop because the can run past the bunker in some maps. Do you guys have a way of stopping this attack?
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On February 04 2013 01:44 nomyx wrote:
Has anyone tried a revamped 1-1-1 push in TvP? Siege tanks without upgrades and widow mines seem like it would do wonders for the push. Or does the new Nexus Cannon cancel out the push?
I've done it a few times. I've had a similar success rate that I did in WoL. I think it's weaker, but its also less expected.
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Not sure if I am the only one but... has anyone else been aving infinitely better games in hots? I have been playing alot more with widow mines and mech play in general. Most of my games go at least 20 mins with greats action start to finish. A few tips ive picked up playing mech...
Ravens are awesome. best vs Z, pretty good vs P, meh vs T,
vs P if you are having problems vs zTempests, remember that PDD blocks 20 Temp shots... = about 800 damage.
Hunter seeker great vs Z esp swarm hosts, if you start casting the seeker missle directly on top of swarm hosts almost no chance they can get away.
Widow mines are not very good early, but really shine late game. my strat of choice has been setting up a mine + tank wall, then harassing around the map with helions, medivac hellbats, raven huntersekers, etc... making the other person attack into you is amazing for mech and mines.
Thor drops early vs P are pretty fun and effective if they dont go blink
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On February 04 2013 02:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 01:44 nomyx wrote:
Has anyone tried a revamped 1-1-1 push in TvP? Siege tanks without upgrades and widow mines seem like it would do wonders for the push. Or does the new Nexus Cannon cancel out the push? I've done it a few times. I've had a similar success rate that I did in WoL. I think it's weaker, but its also less expected.
Ah, good to hear.
On February 04 2013 02:09 Vague wrote:
I usually go for a 1 rax gasless expand. Protoss has been doing a nasty build where they rush with a zelot, stalker, and MSC, off of one gate. It is hard to stop because the can run past the bunker in some maps. Do you guys have a way of stopping this attack?
Honestly, 1 rax FE is way too greedy in the beta. Especially against protoss who has a lot of options (Oracle harass, MsCore pushes) that can destroy you if you don't invest into marines.. I would try a more safer build that delays the FE for a bunker.
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On February 04 2013 01:44 nomyx wrote:
Has anyone tried a revamped 1-1-1 push in TvP? Siege tanks without upgrades and widow mines seem like it would do wonders for the push. Or does the new Nexus Cannon cancel out the push?
So widow mines replace the banshees? no raven out of starport? I've tried it once and lost because of the nexus cannon
edit: marine,siege, banshee raven that is
I also don't get what the big deal with oracles are. I've had a few problems with them when I got caught off guard but most of the time one turret in each mineral line shuts it down hard
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how to avoid oracle killing 20 workers in 5 seconds if you aren't looking or army elsewhere? turrets are a must early game?
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On February 04 2013 13:57 IshinShishi wrote:
how to avoid oracle killing 20 workers in 5 seconds if you aren't looking or army elsewhere? turrets are a must early game?
I am no pro but that's what I'm doing. I find it hard to delegate marines both in my mineral lines and trying to stop Protoss from busting the front. I haven't tried widow mines yet though.
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i want to hear your experiences with mech bos vs p. How do you get fine into the midgame, vs any kind of allins, whatare your bos? i have tried a couple of things in the masterleague, but i felt like with 1rax expansions allins are too hard to hold if you follow up mech. So how do you guys open up and react/follow up?
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I just got back into SC2 and am low bronze in HoTS, high silver in WoL (playing mostly against Golds right now). I am well aware of how sucky I am, and I also realize that the HoTS leagues might be skewed a little bit, but I'm perplexed at how difficult I'm finding HoTS. I understand from reading this thread that perhaps my general BO is bad for HoTS (although the opinions on that seem pretty strongly divided). I do decently against zerg, but protoss kill me every single time. I've noted the posts above about oracles and will try to implement the suggestions there, but what I see most often is a push with MS Core and a few stalkers and zealots, and it crushes me every time. In the replay below, I had a full bunker, plus another 5 marines and a marauder when he hit with a MSC, 3 zealots, 3 sentries, and 2 stalkers, and he just annihilated me. What do I do to stop this? (I realize my macro isn't great, but even in games where I have WAY better supply count and army size, this push from protoss destroys me).
http://drop.sc/303048
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I disagree with people saying widow mines are no good
In TvZ i've been doing 1rax fe into reactor hellions, then after 4 hellions lift factory and make another reactor on it and replace with Starport
It's the same as the 930 Marine/Hellion/Medi timing, except now you load a medi full of widow mines, drop in his
main and use to delay mining and get drone kills,
You can also do all this as a straight up drop, using ur mines as a ground holder, zerg has to have overseer before he can engage ur marines / hellions with widow mines spread out to give you forward defense.
Then following up with 1-1 marine tank medi/mine push
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i cant play TvT for shit in HotS its so different from WoL and its frustrating as hell...
every TvT ends up being 45minutes with me losing i have no idea what to do ><
if i try hellbat drop they have turrets+bunkers in the mineral line so it insta-fails so im not doing that anymore
in WoL is rarely lost to ppl under grandmaster league or top8 masters in TvT and now i cant win vs diamond players and its pissing me off
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What are good defense against oracle opening? Would a widow mine work - do they one shot oracles?
What about friendly fire? Do the widow mine's friendly splash work on scvs if the widow mine fire on an oracle that is above my mineral line?
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EPT
