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On June 19 2012 06:18 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I see. I definitely wasn't droning enough that game, but I was curious what would be better anyway assuming I had the money. I split my lings pretty well, but he just had too many roaches in the end. I'll keep trying and if I hit that again hopefully I'll have better macro to deal with it. I think in particular if you're on 50-60 drones you can't take 6-8 gas like I was trying. Should we be aiming for higher drone counts?
Yeah you do want to get a good amount of drones so you can afford to throw spines like they were lings. I just haven't faced the push enough to know the bets response to that timing only once and that was when I had been just starting out trying out the build.
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This style feels very potent, especially if you manage to hold of any timings. Whenever I use it though, I have a hard time really knowing how to use my army after I get ultras. It just seems like they're able to keep up with the ultras and eventually manage to even out in tech and upgrades. I also feel like there's an odd time where I have to bank a lot of resources as I'm getting hive, even though I have the wall of spines down. Here's an example http://drop.sc/200622 In this game I eventually lose due to not droning enough. Is there an issue with my timings, or should I simply be more greedy before ultras come out so I can have more?
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Thank you for adding Holding roach/baneling attacks section that I asked before. It is very helpful
This OP responds so quick and answers almost all questions we ask.
If only people work this diligently in real life...
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On June 20 2012 07:29 Orek wrote:
Thank you for adding Holding roach/baneling attacks section that I asked before. It is very helpful
This OP responds so quick and answers almost all questions we ask.
If only people work this diligently in real life...
Blade is a great guy, he earned the blue poster thing (whatever that matters anyway).
I've been using this style a lot lately and it has improved my ZvZ so much.
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On June 20 2012 06:20 Sigil wrote:This style feels very potent, especially if you manage to hold of any timings. Whenever I use it though, I have a hard time really knowing how to use my army after I get ultras. It just seems like they're able to keep up with the ultras and eventually manage to even out in tech and upgrades. I also feel like there's an odd time where I have to bank a lot of resources as I'm getting hive, even though I have the wall of spines down. Here's an example http://drop.sc/200622 In this game I eventually lose due to not droning enough. Is there an issue with my timings, or should I simply be more greedy before ultras come out so I can have more?
The reason your money is getting so high is you forget to inject quiet a bit and you do need a macro hatch as well once you have 3 saturated bases you will have more then enough minerals.
So I would work on larva injects as that is why your money gets so high for a lot of that game. Also on shakuras if you have a big bank like you did, you can take a fourth faster then on most maps. Unless they do drop play or something there is no way they can deny your fourth.
Once ultralisks are out that is the time you want to start being aggressive, obviously don't attack dumb if you need to retreat do, if you think his army might be to strong retreat. He may have gotten ultras with 5 armor, but they had 0 melee. So your ultras were still a lot stronger.
Also your third base was barely saturated (3 drones mining at it). You want a lot more on that, that is why you were kind of broke late game was due to lack of drones at other bases.
Your first attack with ultra's you forgot to bring 3 of them, so you lost 2 carelessly. Can't be doing that, need to keep your army together (obviously you don't need all your zerglings together, but ultras should be together).
Also with ultras you do want ling support, ultras alone are strong, but with ling support they are much much stronger.
don't be afraid to add some more infestors, you should eventually have 10 infestors in a long zvz with ultra support, especially if you have excess gas and low minerals.
In general you need to work on engaging, bringing an overseer with you always and you need more lings as well. Just pure ultras is a lot easier to counter, but when a ton of lings + ultra's come it's very powerful. You had that game, but just threw away ultras carelessly at times and that hurts a lot as they are not cheap units.
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On June 21 2012 11:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 06:20 Sigil wrote:This style feels very potent, especially if you manage to hold of any timings. Whenever I use it though, I have a hard time really knowing how to use my army after I get ultras. It just seems like they're able to keep up with the ultras and eventually manage to even out in tech and upgrades. I also feel like there's an odd time where I have to bank a lot of resources as I'm getting hive, even though I have the wall of spines down. Here's an example http://drop.sc/200622 In this game I eventually lose due to not droning enough. Is there an issue with my timings, or should I simply be more greedy before ultras come out so I can have more? + Show Spoiler +The reason your money is getting so high is you forget to inject quiet a bit and you do need a macro hatch as well once you have 3 saturated bases you will have more then enough minerals.
So I would work on larva injects as that is why your money gets so high for a lot of that game. Also on shakuras if you have a big bank like you did, you can take a fourth faster then on most maps. Unless they do drop play or something there is no way they can deny your fourth.
Once ultralisks are out that is the time you want to start being aggressive, obviously don't attack dumb if you need to retreat do, if you think his army might be to strong retreat. He may have gotten ultras with 5 armor, but they had 0 melee. So your ultras were still a lot stronger.
Also your third base was barely saturated (3 drones mining at it). You want a lot more on that, that is why you were kind of broke late game was due to lack of drones at other bases.
Your first attack with ultra's you forgot to bring 3 of them, so you lost 2 carelessly. Can't be doing that, need to keep your army together (obviously you don't need all your zerglings together, but ultras should be together).
Also with ultras you do want ling support, ultras alone are strong, but with ling support they are much much stronger.
don't be afraid to add some more infestors, you should eventually have 10 infestors in a long zvz with ultra support, especially if you have excess gas and low minerals.
In general you need to work on engaging, bringing an overseer with you always and you need more lings as well. Just pure ultras is a lot easier to counter, but when a ton of lings + ultra's come it's very powerful. You had that game, but just threw away ultras carelessly at times and that hurts a lot as they are not cheap units.
In general, basic mechanical issues like usual. However, this does answer the questions I had with the macro hatch, ling numbers and infestor count. Thank you for both the answers and the analysis!
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time to listen to belial argue why ultras beat everything and that this and this is not true.
or listen to tang's urge to do a roach nydus into their main, or do a roach baneling timing before infestors.
Will be an interesting conversation!
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On June 21 2012 15:34 ThePlayer33 wrote:
time to listen to belial argue why ultras beat everything and that this and this is not true.
or listen to tang's urge to do a roach nydus into their main, or do a roach baneling timing before infestors.
Will be an interesting conversation!
Huh? What are you talking about lol.
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On June 21 2012 15:42 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 15:34 ThePlayer33 wrote:
time to listen to belial argue why ultras beat everything and that this and this is not true.
or listen to tang's urge to do a roach nydus into their main, or do a roach baneling timing before infestors.
Will be an interesting conversation! Huh? What are you talking about lol.
I think he's pointing out that you already answered all the questions in the thread and the inevitable future is for belial to start a flame war about ultralisks and tang to theorycraft about all-ins.
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On June 21 2012 18:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 15:42 blade55555 wrote:On June 21 2012 15:34 ThePlayer33 wrote:
time to listen to belial argue why ultras beat everything and that this and this is not true.
or listen to tang's urge to do a roach nydus into their main, or do a roach baneling timing before infestors.
Will be an interesting conversation! Huh? What are you talking about lol. I think he's pointing out that you already answered all the questions in the thread and the inevitable future is for belial to start a flame war about ultralisks and tang to theorycraft about all-ins.
Actuallly quite amusing, got a chuckle out of me anyway.
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Thanks Blade for this guide!
I am trying to learn the strat; I have to say that my first games were quite painful, due to my inexperience; but it makes ZvZ much more interesting, diverse (regarding units) and dynamic (with counters, infestor play, etc.) than Roach vs Roach endless fights...
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On June 21 2012 19:12 Macpo wrote:
Thanks Blade for this guide!
I am trying to learn the strat; I have to say that my first games were quite painful, due to my inexperience; but it makes ZvZ much more interesting, diverse (regarding units) and dynamic (with counters, infestor play, etc.) than Roach vs Roach endless fights...
Yeah I find myself enjoying zvz more with this to. It takes a few games, once you know the timings that can kill you and figure out how to defend it then this strat is great. Takes quiet a bit of practice :D
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Do you find that you can make it to the stage where you get ultras pretty consistently with this build? As in, you don't find yourself susceptible to ling/baneling all-ins and the like? I have a real problem with the early game in ZvZ sometimes, particularly when I just get flooded with speedlings. If this build works well when playing against that, I'd be very excited to try it. I know you get a baneling nest, but do you usually find that it is in time? I also realize that scouting in ZvZ is paramount, particularly checking with a couple lings every larvae inject. Does this build give you the tools to react properly if you can sniff out a lot of units coming at you?
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On June 22 2012 03:26 TFS wrote:
Do you find that you can make it to the stage where you get ultras pretty consistently with this build? As in, you don't find yourself susceptible to ling/baneling all-ins and the like? I have a real problem with the early game in ZvZ sometimes, particularly when I just get flooded with speedlings. If this build works well when playing against that, I'd be very excited to try it. I know you get a baneling nest, but do you usually find that it is in time? I also realize that scouting in ZvZ is paramount, particularly checking with a couple lings every larvae inject. Does this build give you the tools to react properly if you can sniff out a lot of units coming at you?
Yes, most of the time I can get to ultralisks easy now that I have figured out most of the timings. I do have a baneling nest so I can deal with ling/bane all in as well and it's not hard to switch into defensive ling/bane if he's going aggressive (or you can be aggressive if you see you can). So far my baneling nest has always been on time ^^.
And again if you are on top of your scouting, make more spines if you feel he is going to do a 2 base timing or something. Spines are very nice and mass ling with a few spines will counter any 2 base all in pretty nicely ^_^
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On June 22 2012 03:32 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:26 TFS wrote:
Do you find that you can make it to the stage where you get ultras pretty consistently with this build? As in, you don't find yourself susceptible to ling/baneling all-ins and the like? I have a real problem with the early game in ZvZ sometimes, particularly when I just get flooded with speedlings. If this build works well when playing against that, I'd be very excited to try it. I know you get a baneling nest, but do you usually find that it is in time? I also realize that scouting in ZvZ is paramount, particularly checking with a couple lings every larvae inject. Does this build give you the tools to react properly if you can sniff out a lot of units coming at you? Yes, most of the time I can get to ultralisks easy now that I have figured out most of the timings. I do have a baneling nest so I can deal with ling/bane all in as well and it's not hard to switch into defensive ling/bane if he's going aggressive (or you can be aggressive if you see you can). So far my baneling nest has always been on time ^^. And again if you are on top of your scouting, make more spines if you feel he is going to do a 2 base timing or something. Spines are very nice and mass ling with a few spines will counter any 2 base all in pretty nicely ^_^
Right on, man. I'm gonna try this out for sure. I've been looking for a solid ZvZ build to use since I'm still at the stage where I'm working on mechanics/macro/etc., and this looks like it will fit the bill quite nicely.  Thank you for the writeup.
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Hi Blade -
Great guide. The +2 roach timing / trade that Jerm talked about on page 4 has proven difficult at times for me. Do you have anything to add on that? I'm mid-masters...decent but still pretty bad. I'm wondering if it's just bad macro on my end (likely).
Another question: your initial 3 drones on gas -- do you take them off after initial 100 for speed to get your economy rolling? Or leave them on to bank gas for ensuing 1/1 research?
Thanks.
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On June 22 2012 04:00 IPA wrote:
Hi Blade -
Great guide. The +2 roach timing / trade that Jerm talked about on page 4 has proven difficult at times for me. Do you have anything to add on that? I'm mid-masters...decent but still pretty bad. I'm wondering if it's just bad macro on my end (likely).
Another question: your initial 3 drones on gas -- do you take them off after initial 100 for speed to get your economy rolling? Or leave them on to bank gas for ensuing 1/1 research?
Thanks.
I leave them on so I can bank resources to get the 1/1. To hold the +2 timing you do need at minimum 6 infestors (you will be able to get 8 easily if you invest) and try to engage him at a ramp so you can fungel everything (with spine support obviously). If you can't do that, just try to get a full surround with lings and fungel. If you hold off this timing (which you should with proper spine count + infestor + ling surround) you will win the game most likely unless you mess up.
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Hi. Great post. This style has been getting a lot more popular on the ladder as of late and it really is very strong. I was wondering what players did to counter this style/its weaknesses as it feels kind of impenetrable (to kill them before hive) and then unstoppable (when they get their ultras out) when playing against it with a more traditional roach style. I don't really want to start off a game playing roach then switch into this style once i see that's what they're doing since i will be behind on upgrades and infestor tech. Or is there a way to transition into it while carrying an advantage in a praticular area ( deny third base/eco).
Thanks
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On June 22 2012 04:28 Actinium_ wrote:
Hi. Great post. This style has been getting a lot more popular on the ladder as of late and it really is very strong. I was wondering what players did to counter this style/its weaknesses as it feels kind of impenetrable (to kill them before hive) and then unstoppable (when they get their ultras out) when playing against it with a more traditional roach style. I don't really want to start off a game playing roach then switch into this style once i see that's what they're doing since i will be behind on upgrades and infestor tech. Or is there a way to transition into it while carrying an advantage in a praticular area ( deny third base/eco).
Thanks
I wouldn't say this is a counter, but this is probably the most effective way to win is to do a +2 +1 carapace timing with roaches. Or just +2 range. It's a pretty effective timing and if the other zerg is being to greedy (not enough spines/infestors) then you will probably win. But that's the best shot to win, otherwise I can't really think of any hard counter.
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Can you talk about what triggers you think about when to take a 3rd? I can't figure out a good situation timing.
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EPT
