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On September 02 2012 08:27 akuan30000 wrote:Hey, Diamond zerg here, I'm using this build to great success on the ladder. The only problem I'm having is dealing with 2base roach all ins. I'm having trouble scouting it, and defending adequately against it. What is the general timing for a third base in zvz? Here are 2 replays, could someone point out the errors in my play? The first game I use roaches to defend; the second I use spine crawlers http://drop.sc/246367http://drop.sc/246368Oh, and what's the rough timing for a 2base roach push?
I'm not qualified to answer any of the other questions, but a roach/ling all-in hits ~9:00-10:00, timing varies a ton depending on early game, if he gets upgrades/lair/macro hatch
I figured a good way to do this build was saturate bases -> all larvae on lings, extra money goes into spines pretty much? Not sure, again I'm not qualified 
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I wonder wether Roach/Hydra, with quite a few hydras, is actually a good strategy against this? I've just played against this and even though my opponent got some pretty good banelings hits one my hydras, and fungals my whole army while engaging with ultras I'm winning most of the fights. But he didn't do any Carapace upgrades aside from Ultra upgrade. So I'm not sure wether this might have been the reason for this. But if he did those he would have 1-2 less ultras. So I don't think it'd be such a difference.
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On September 03 2012 06:02 roym899 wrote:
I wonder wether Roach/Hydra, with quite a few hydras, is actually a good strategy against this? I've just played against this and even though my opponent got some pretty good banelings hits one my hydras, and fungals my whole army while engaging with ultras I'm winning most of the fights. But he didn't do any Carapace upgrades aside from Ultra upgrade. So I'm not sure wether this might have been the reason for this. But if he did those he would have 1-2 less ultras. So I don't think it'd be such a difference.
Actually that makes a huge difference. The fact he only had the ultra cavern uptrades is huge for ultralisks. From experience both from playing with this style and playing against it with roach/hydra, ultras will mop this up easy peasy.
The ultras should be 5/3 and as long as he has infestor support he should be crushing your armies unless he is engaging in a bad position or something.
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From my experience (High Diamond/Low Master), this style autoloses to double upgraded roach. Is there anything better I can do? Or is the only option to put up a roach warren and get roaches yourself.
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On September 04 2012 05:51 xPiwi wrote:
From my experience (High Diamond/Low Master), this style autoloses to double upgraded roach. Is there anything better I can do? Or is the only option to put up a roach warren and get roaches yourself.
The easiest solution is to get roaches yourself. The other way is to just make sure you have a lot of spines and obviously ling/infestor and engaging in a good spot while counter attacking.
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^ How many spines would you say? 3-4 5-6? more than that?
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On September 04 2012 07:13 xPiwi wrote:
^ How many spines would you say? 3-4 5-6? more than that?
I would try at minimum 5 if possible ^^.
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On August 29 2012 14:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 13:32 Discarder wrote:
I tried this and it was a lot of fun! But I think the only reason I played this is because some opponents had bad macro and not enough units.
I was having trouble defending a mass roach into 3rd base build in Ohana. 6 spines in my natural and 6 in the 3rd with a lot of infestors isn't enough. Its so hard to run back and forth to defend both bases.. Maybe I will upload a replay soon. If they are on 2 base, you can gladly stay on 2 base and just secure a large infestor count. After that, Ling/Infestor will demolish roach base armies and you're safe to take a 3rd. I think the proper number is ~10 with a lot of energy. If you conserve your lings and infestors, you'll be fine. Don't throw them away trying to save your 3rd too early. If people have replays of holding these attacks or losing against them, post in the thread so we can make more sense of how it works.
I guess this is it. I really have to do something with my lings if he's attacking. I really want this build to work but its so hard.
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Ok so I have a question about this style. If my opponent really commits to killing my third with roach attacks do I defend it or counter and kill his third? I can think of good reasons for both but in practice I never quite know what to do.
The only way I can defend my third is to mass spine but then I fall behind in eco and play from behind, or lose my third and kill his while having faster infestors then him to set myself up for the mid-late game.
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On September 04 2012 22:56 TheMooseHeed wrote:
Ok so I have a question about this style. If my opponent really commits to killing my third with roach attacks do I defend it or counter and kill his third? I can think of good reasons for both but in practice I never quite know what to do.
The only way I can defend my third is to mass spine but then I fall behind in eco and play from behind, or lose my third and kill his while having faster infestors then him to set myself up for the mid-late game.
Well you should do a counter to kill his third if you don't think you can engage it. If you can fight it just defend, if you can't just fcounter and kill the third so that he's not ahead in bases
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On September 05 2012 03:18 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 22:56 TheMooseHeed wrote:
Ok so I have a question about this style. If my opponent really commits to killing my third with roach attacks do I defend it or counter and kill his third? I can think of good reasons for both but in practice I never quite know what to do.
The only way I can defend my third is to mass spine but then I fall behind in eco and play from behind, or lose my third and kill his while having faster infestors then him to set myself up for the mid-late game. Well you should do a counter to kill his third if you don't think you can engage it. If you can fight it just defend, if you can't just fcounter and kill the third so that he's not ahead in bases
This is actually the most crucial moment in the upgraded mass ling vs roach games. It is very IMPORTANT to gauge how many units did he have to attack your 3rd and how many he has to defend his 3rd. This will determine if you should stay and defend OR do a counter attack. So it depends on how you size up his army.
The problem is I don't want to go ultras on only 2 bases. If my opponent denies my third forever, then it will be very hard to get gas for those ultras/upgrades/adrenal glands. It will just be a stale game. Maybe I should max with 2/2lings with my minerals so I can kill the roach army (with good positioning) head on? Because I think I have a lot of minerals already piled.
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Russian Federation81 Posts
1500+ MMR EU Dia. I've been using this style for quite some time already, but I still can't quite get the hang of it. The thing I used to die to most frequently were upgraded roach pushes. I'd defend from the first wave, and the next one would mop me off as I would have almost zero infestor energy and very few lings and spines left. So I've started getting a roach warren about time I morph my lair just like the Blade says in his latest posts. This way I am able to survive the roach push by matching his roach numbers, so it all seems good. But not quite. As I am using my gas on roaches, I can't afford enough (how much is enough? 6? 8? 10? more?) infestors. Later infestors means later ultras. And by the time I am able to start adding ultras to my army, the upgrade difference between my roaches and his becomes fatal.
My biggest fault that comes to mind is getting used to having a LOT of infestors (8+) from ling+spine way and trying to match these numbers while going roaches. How many infestors do you guys get? Now that I think about it, without having a need to lock roaches in place for spines, 4 or so would be enough, or would it?
Another dilemma I've been facing is, do I build lings (not counting a small sized counterattack squad for snipig 3rds and 4ths) for my main army or am I better off with pure roach and using those minerals somewhere else, like building spines. Enemy infestors kinda render my lings almost useless, or at least very fragile. I am talking about the time window when enemy already has a decent amount of infestors and my ultra cavern is not done yet.
In the end I wanted to say that I absolutely love this style, I've had games against much more skilled and highly ranked opponents, which I was obviously losing but was able to come back thanks to ridiculous strength of upgraded ultras against roach based ground armies. I just wish it would be more popular, none of the streamers I watch uses it  So here's kinda a request to Blade and other people out there successfully using this.. could you please share some replays? And if you know a progamer using this style constantly could you point me towards them? Thanks!
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/\ this, a thousand times, this!
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Hm I don't have any recent replays since I have been playing almost only hots and yeah. The only ones are in the OP, but maybe some other people will post in here with replays but the ones in the OP are my latest ones !
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Any plans for a HOTS replay pack or streaming HOTS?
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On October 11 2012 18:51 Catatafish wrote:
Any plans for a HOTS replay pack or streaming HOTS?
I stream hots quiet a bit, past couple weeks I haven't but plan on doing it again on monday. With being sick for a week then this week been lazy and kinda busy with school. Will be back on monday :D
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Wondering if it would be worth mixing drops into this, doing ling drops could be real destructive while staying defensive? Also infestor drops.
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United States248 Posts
In my opinion, drops aren't worth it until you enter into the lategame where you have your maxed army and you have your upgrades. The reason is otherwise this is 2 less infestors in the midgame, where you almost always need every bit of infestor energy.
Infestors also deal well with drops, and like every zerg midgame has infestors.
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What about if you did ling drops? A bunch of lings dropped when you see someone move out could be pretty destructive, and not to mention taxing on peoples multi-tasking, possibly opening up opportunities to hit 3rd/4ths
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EPT
