EPT[G] Zerg vs Zerg ling/infestor into ultralisks - Page 15
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Myusen
Germany29 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 24 2012 02:24 Host- wrote: Blade, have you got any replays of you doing this against muta? with the new roaches instead of spines ect. I only have one game of me verse muta but he did muta/ling aggression for a lot of the game so I skipped roaches since I knew I would get ultras out before he'd transition out of muta/ling. | ||
|
trevaur
Canada13 Posts
| ||
|
Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
I was having trouble defending a mass roach into 3rd base build in Ohana. 6 spines in my natural and 6 in the 3rd with a lot of infestors isn't enough. Its so hard to run back and forth to defend both bases.. Maybe I will upload a replay soon. | ||
|
oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On August 29 2012 13:32 Discarder wrote: I tried this and it was a lot of fun! But I think the only reason I played this is because some opponents had bad macro and not enough units. I was having trouble defending a mass roach into 3rd base build in Ohana. 6 spines in my natural and 6 in the 3rd with a lot of infestors isn't enough. Its so hard to run back and forth to defend both bases.. Maybe I will upload a replay soon. If they are on 2 base, you can gladly stay on 2 base and just secure a large infestor count. After that, Ling/Infestor will demolish roach base armies and you're safe to take a 3rd. I think the proper number is ~10 with a lot of energy. If you conserve your lings and infestors, you'll be fine. Don't throw them away trying to save your 3rd too early. If people have replays of holding these attacks or losing against them, post in the thread so we can make more sense of how it works. | ||
|
SickeL
110 Posts
[EDIT]Nvm, I just read through the explanation section- oops :p | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On August 28 2012 02:54 trevaur wrote: @chaos: So, your "counter" to this style is just to continually mass mutas? Wouldn't that response just fail if he reacts by just making the normal counter to mass mutas? I mean, there is a reason that pros dont do mass muta, and thats because there is a very good counter to it. It seems like if the ling/infestor player just built a spire of his own in reaction to mass mutas and built like 5 corruptors then your style would fail. The mutas wouldnt be able to take out the corruptors without severely clumping up, making them vulnerable to infestors, and the corruptors would also be able to shoo away the overlords with banelings inside. 5 queens could also function in a similar way if you dont want to invest/wait for a spire. If he delays his tech that much that he will go corruptors instead of Ultras then I won't be facing this style will i? Corruptors are damn slow and you really don't need to clump up to kill them, magic boxing over them is very easy to pull off and it takes a group of 5 corruptors like 2 rounds of shooting to kill one mutalisk. You would need a hellalot of Corruptors to actually kill off the Mutalisks in the way you describe. The massing of mutas also only happens after the Baneling drops are done. So you will face around 15 mutalisks flying around the map denying your scouting until your fourth gets sieged up by drops. If you let yourself get scared into such a heavy gas tech that easily then your Ultralisk transition will be way delayed. I've faced the spire transition around twice after infestors, and they all show that if they don't get that huge fungal off, I just take out the anti air and leave nothing but infestors behind. It has also been my only 'counter' thus far when I went for 2 base muta because the investment is about as much as this style's. You have no hope of transitioning into Ultralisks yourself because you will be giving up every advantage that you have while playing right into his hands. | ||
|
Terkill
Denmark38 Posts
| ||
|
M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
| ||
|
nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On August 29 2012 17:24 Terkill wrote: Ultras are more mineral heavy than broodlords are (ultras = 300/200, broodlords 250/300). So taking into account that you really need your minerals for lings, I'd say that broodlords are the better choice. But then on the other hand, going for ultras instead of Bls will get you more infestors. Tough decision really, but at the moment I just cannot stand palying with ultras. They're so terrible. You don't actually want to make any lings once the opponent gets infestors, other than a few for counter attacks. Rest is better spent on spines or pooling for ultras. Your lings will be worth absolutely nothing for defense, and you can't really do anything agressively with them other than counters. Atleast this is my personal experience with this style, and I have been doing it long before it got popular. Yours truly, hipster zerg. | ||
|
Catatafish
75 Posts
My own thoughts on the replay: I should've had spines up for his 10:30 roach push, but I cleaned it up pretty well anyway, even cost-efficiently. I was then able to cancel his third while droning up my own at which point I felt I had a fairly substantial lead. I went for a late roach warren, which may have been a mistake. I felt like I needed units fast to secure my economic advantage, but perhaps the roach warren should have either been earlier or not there at all, as it cut into my ultralisk production just before his attack. He moves out with a maxed roach/infestor army with me on a paltry 144/200 (did I make a major macro mistake or why was my supply so far behind his? I feel like I probably teched to hive too soon, not having secured a third base, but I didn't want to spend all my gas on infestors either.). I neglect to move in with my ling counter-attack force, which might have slowed him down and bought me time. The engagement is absolutely horrible for me. I should've moved up my spines and somehow avoided letting him have such a huge concave on me, but even so his army was just way superior to mine, and I don't feel like I could've won it in anyway. Not to mention I lost three full-energy infestors, which is quite painful to watch, sorry about that. I guess I'm just used to playing against weaker opponents because this engagement had me pretty baffled, as I felt I was ahead for most of the game. Any kinds of mistakes/oversights that you can point out would be much appreciated. Replay: http://drop.sc/244493 | ||
|
CakeInFire
13 Posts
On August 29 2012 21:40 nkr wrote: You don't actually want to make any lings once the opponent gets infestors, other than a few for counter attacks. Rest is better spent on spines or pooling for ultras. Your lings will be worth absolutely nothing for defense, and you can't really do anything agressively with them other than counters. lings are very important to surround your opponent army, else your ultras can't reach opponent army (fungals are not enough). | ||
|
M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
http://drop.sc/244544 http://drop.sc/244543 | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Also, I guess when the opponent goes 2 base lair mass roach (idiot, I know, but sometimes it happens, and it's really frustrating to lose to idiots...), it's pretty hard to fight correctly. I guess you just have to really make a shitttttooon of spines in your nat, like about 15 of them if it is a map like ohana, because he's so 'all-in' with roaches, and can't really get ultras off 2 base. if that makes sense. This build is just so hard to pull off when it's like a weird game where you have a huge lead but they do a 2 base lair build (mutas, or mass roach, or muta into roach). I don't like doing this build when I have a lead in the game. i guess if you have a lead in the game, what you should do is (really play standard) just mass a shittttooon of spines in your nat so you'll never die, and take your third after making like 12 infestors. Or take it, but leave the shittttooon of spines in your natural, and play the whole trade thirds game a million times until you have 12+ infestors. | ||
|
M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
On August 30 2012 09:47 Belial88 wrote: I have a next to impossible time with pulling this build off on Ohana. Need so many spines ;/ Also, I guess when the opponent goes 2 base lair mass roach (idiot, I know, but sometimes it happens, and it's really frustrating to lose to idiots...), it's pretty hard to fight correctly. I guess you just have to really make a shitttttooon of spines in your nat, like about 15 of them if it is a map like ohana, because he's so 'all-in' with roaches, and can't really get ultras off 2 base. if that makes sense. This build is just so hard to pull off when it's like a weird game where you have a huge lead but they do a 2 base lair build (mutas, or mass roach, or muta into roach). I don't like doing this build when I have a lead in the game. i guess if you have a lead in the game, what you should do is (really play standard) just mass a shittttooon of spines in your nat so you'll never die, and take your third after making like 12 infestors. Or take it, but leave the shittttooon of spines in your natural, and play the whole trade thirds game a million times until you have 12+ infestors. Why not make a bunch of banelings vs mass roach? you got damage upgrades for them, better use minerals on lings instead of spines and get banelings. And why not get 3rd quite fast while roach count is low and ling count is high? Least you can wreck his base with lings by running to his natural/main and get back in time for defence. If you hold initial attack with any necesarry means you will have a bunch of infestors for the second wave and it will be much easier. | ||
|
trevaur
Canada13 Posts
What if your opponent goes 2 base lair and rushes for drops and doom drops your main with roaches? Will infestors be out in time to defend? If so, what if they spread out their overlords? | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On September 01 2012 00:20 trevaur wrote: @chaos: why are mutas more viable against this than against roach/infestor? It seems like the only difference is that if the roach infestor player goes hydras they will have +1 or maybe +2. In any case, you didnt indicate how you would deal with 5ish queens. They have higher dps and can transfuse, so it seems like that would be very cost efficient vs mutas. They would also let you spread creep to your 4th faster to get up spores and spines before the attack. What if your opponent goes 2 base lair and rushes for drops and doom drops your main with roaches? Will infestors be out in time to defend? If so, what if they spread out their overlords? I have never said anything of the sort. I have said that if you go for mutalisks you won't be able to match him with a sufficient roach infestor or indeed infestor ultralisk army because he has all the advantages aside from maybe the economic advantage. A mutalisk player against this style is in the disadvantage on the ground as the opponent will have +1/+1 out by the time your mutalisks are out. Seeing as the normal transition from mutalisk is double upgrades into 3 base roach, you will be at a massive disadvantage upgradewise and you will have to overcommit on units to compensate. By the time you have a sizable roach army with +2/+2, the opponent will already be ramming down your front door with 3/5 ultralisks with infestor support. Going for infestors right after mutalisks is very dicy as well, as you will need a metric ton of spines to compensate for the lack of ground army. Not only that, it puts you on the defense with less upgrades and less infestors than the opponent. He gets to expand to a fourth and you can't do jack against it because he has all the possbilities of counter attacking with his well upgraded zerglings. Queens are very good against mutalisks... if the mutalisks are either out of range or in such a low number that they don't matter. Once you get to the point where you have over 20 mutalisks barreling down on them, they really can't do anything in a straight up fight. They will certainly help if you managed to fungal all but a few of the mutalisks, but the muta player should never allow such a fungal to occur anyway. If I allow the opponent to take a fourth with this style, I'm doomed anyway. The last paragraph is honestly so far out of context that it isn't even funny. If you are suggesting that someone transitions from +1/+1 zergling/infestor into 2 base roach drop, you are honestly lacking the foresight to even consider that doing such a thing would be so far delayed that I have more than enough mutalisks out to oneshot overlords. If you are suggesting a 2 base lair roach drop timing against 2 base mutalisk, be my guest because I'll gladly take a huge dronelead and watch you dump all your roaches that you invested all your hopes in into my main, because if you don't kill me with that attack I'll win straight up. | ||
|
trevaur
Canada13 Posts
As for the mass muta build, like you said, you wont be able to transition very well out of it, so the ling infestor player should just focus on defending versus your mass mutas; it doesnt really matter that his ultras are delayed. As long as he takes his 4th against your style then you probably lose, so if he invests in a whole bunch of anti air it doesnt really matter for him because you are pretty all-in. Putting ling infestor aside for a second, how do pros using standard roach builds deal with mass mutas? It seems like the ling infestor player should just be able to do the same response as if you are doing a roach build. | ||
|
Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On August 29 2012 22:48 Catatafish wrote: I would like some critique on a game I played on Ohana in low-mid-masters. The guy I played against was favored and I felt he was clearly the superior player, but I managed to get a big advantage in the mid-game and I feel I should have been able to bring it home. My own thoughts on the replay: I should've had spines up for his 10:30 roach push, but I cleaned it up pretty well anyway, even cost-efficiently. I was then able to cancel his third while droning up my own at which point I felt I had a fairly substantial lead. I went for a late roach warren, which may have been a mistake. I felt like I needed units fast to secure my economic advantage, but perhaps the roach warren should have either been earlier or not there at all, as it cut into my ultralisk production just before his attack. He moves out with a maxed roach/infestor army with me on a paltry 144/200 (did I make a major macro mistake or why was my supply so far behind his? I feel like I probably teched to hive too soon, not having secured a third base, but I didn't want to spend all my gas on infestors either.). I neglect to move in with my ling counter-attack force, which might have slowed him down and bought me time. The engagement is absolutely horrible for me. I should've moved up my spines and somehow avoided letting him have such a huge concave on me, but even so his army was just way superior to mine, and I don't feel like I could've won it in anyway. Not to mention I lost three full-energy infestors, which is quite painful to watch, sorry about that. I guess I'm just used to playing against weaker opponents because this engagement had me pretty baffled, as I felt I was ahead for most of the game. Any kinds of mistakes/oversights that you can point out would be much appreciated. Replay: http://drop.sc/244493 You lost about 700 gas by not putting drones in that geyser in your natural  I think you just needed a bigger infestor count for that battle. Against roach players you can't stop at 4 infestors. You can start your hive after 4, but you need to resume infestor production. In terms of spine positioning, on Ohana you MUST take down your rocks. Keep your natural spines at the top of the ramp, and make a spinewall in a slight concave at your 3rd, and split up your infestors so that you can cover both angles. You can fungal the ramp if he tries to go for the natural, and you can fungal him in your spines if he attacks the 3rd. You need to be more patient and make sure he is always fighting in range of the spines, and your spines need to be positioned for that purpose. Bigger infestor count, more spines, stronger defensive position, and earlier counterattack. I don't think the roaches hurt you much, but I don't think they helped either, since you had already started ultralisk production. I was impressed by your hold against his roach push - I thought you were dead without spines, but he hit just before 1/1 finished, so that was very nice for you. This is unrelated to your specific question, but your early game looks very unstable to me, with no baneling nest and no spine. It seems like it would be hard to reactively defend against many things. If your scouting is good enough that you never take dumb losses, that's great, but I'd be very worried about dumb losses in the early game. I strongly recommend sneaking a few extra queens in, and sharing the injects around so that queens build up energy. That way any time you are in a tight spot you bring your queens to the fight and win with invulnerable ultralisks. It has gotten me out of tight spots on countless occasions, over and over again. Then when you want to attack you use a nydus worm to bring the extra queens to the fight and heal the ultras. http://drop.sc/245137 This game shows my defensive set up on Ohana. It's a tough map for it, but this is how I try to do it. It also shows queens  http://drop.sc/245138 bonus game that shows how queens can save your ass in hard times. | ||
|
akuan30000
1 Post
The only problem I'm having is dealing with 2base roach all ins. I'm having trouble scouting it, and defending adequately against it. What is the general timing for a third base in zvz? Here are 2 replays, could someone point out the errors in my play? The first game I use roaches to defend; the second I use spine crawlers http://drop.sc/246367 http://drop.sc/246368 Oh, and what's the rough timing for a 2base roach push? | ||
| ||
