On August 18 2012 08:44 Mavvie wrote: Okay, I need a little help with this style. I died to a roach/infestor timing that hit right when ultras popped. He made a 3-man-thick wall of infested terrans at my natural on cloud, my lings died to his roaches. My ultras were in my natural, infestors in my third, and the IT/roach just melted down my 5 ultralisks losing only a few units, if any. I know it was a razer-thin, really lucky timing; my ultras literally popped 10 seconds after he attacked. Was this bad luck, or are people figuring out this style? Full energy infestors can make walls like it's easy, and my ultras derp around and die.
Has anyone else had troubles with this, or is it just my bad macro and timings?
My advice would be more spines more infestors the more roach heavy the opponent is. If he's going for a big roach/hydra/infestor or roach/infestor army, I'd recommend getting more infestors, more spines. You should have more infestors than he has, imo. I think it's key that you watch for his 4th and hive timing - if he doesn't go for a fourth or hive, and is making more roaches, you should prepare with more spines, possibly up to even 10 infestors.
I think blade's approach would be quicker ultras, starting hive right when infestation pit is done, and then meeting this sort of attack with maxed out lings, some ultras, and just a few infestors. I personally feel a bit uncomfortable going hive so quickly if I see the opponent making roaches. Maybe blade would get more infestors himself if he sees the opponent is doing this, i can't exactly speak for him, but he seems to get his hive, ultras, really really quickly.
But FG can really tear down IT really quickly. Sometimes you can just end the game if the opponent does like a big roach/infestor/IT spam attack and you just FG his army over and over at a ramp or choke. I think i just play super defensively. if the opponent has no hive done when your ultras are coming, especially with no fourth, then he's deadmeat, so if he's making a lot of roaches, I never hesitate to make more spines, more infestors, so I can survive, because once those ultras pop, you basically win if he doesn't have hive and 4 bases himself, as long as you don't die to such roach bust.
On August 18 2012 08:44 Mavvie wrote: Okay, I need a little help with this style. I died to a roach/infestor timing that hit right when ultras popped. He made a 3-man-thick wall of infested terrans at my natural on cloud, my lings died to his roaches. My ultras were in my natural, infestors in my third, and the IT/roach just melted down my 5 ultralisks losing only a few units, if any. I know it was a razer-thin, really lucky timing; my ultras literally popped 10 seconds after he attacked. Was this bad luck, or are people figuring out this style? Full energy infestors can make walls like it's easy, and my ultras derp around and die.
Has anyone else had troubles with this, or is it just my bad macro and timings?
Ultras have some sad AI, you should try to avoid fighting in places with a lot of infested terrans with them. Dont go too deep or you will get locked by infested terrans and all your ultras will die. Ultras + lings have huge mobility over infestors + roaches+ hydras. In gsl games I noticed that mass infestor is hard counter to ultras + lings + infestors. I just think you should do that build and see all sides of it. Now I started getting macro hatch before getting 1/1 and doing some epic harass with upgraded lings off from 3 hatches. The more you do the build the better you will become at it. It trully requires a bit more skill to execute than mass roach build. You have mobility vs tankiness. ZvZ is my best matchup and with this build I get ~70% of wins, still I got some holes to fix but I can tell that this build is great.
On August 18 2012 08:44 Mavvie wrote: Okay, I need a little help with this style. I died to a roach/infestor timing that hit right when ultras popped. He made a 3-man-thick wall of infested terrans at my natural on cloud, my lings died to his roaches. My ultras were in my natural, infestors in my third, and the IT/roach just melted down my 5 ultralisks losing only a few units, if any. I know it was a razer-thin, really lucky timing; my ultras literally popped 10 seconds after he attacked. Was this bad luck, or are people figuring out this style? Full energy infestors can make walls like it's easy, and my ultras derp around and die.
Has anyone else had troubles with this, or is it just my bad macro and timings?
On cloud, you should have spines at the top of the natural ramp so that he can't come up. Plus a lot of spines at the 3rd ramp so that he has to go around, and a few spines in case he does go around.
Infestors should be somewhere between the 3rd and natural, probably split up, and you can chain fungal him any time he tries to go up either one of those ramps. he should not be able to hit your natural - the only somewhat viable attack route is a huge arc hitting the 3rd from both directions.
Any time he spams infested terrans, fungal them. When it looks like a battle is imminent, I start morphing some banelings to use some of my gas. Gas spent on ultralisks or infestors will pay off in 55 seconds, which doesn't matter if you're dead. banelings are for now. Banelings kill infested terrans, splash everything, and make him use more fungals instead of infested terrans.
Also bring queens. they are so good. Whenever I get around to finally attacking I use a nydus worm to bring the queens forward.
whenever possible, counterattack. Many of your zerglings won't contribute very much in a direct fight, so try to keep a lot of your lings active on the map, and use them to either counterattack just before a battle, or bring them in to flank for the battle itself. Flanking is always good, and counterattacking makes it okay for you take damage and still be in the game.
Hmm I have started changing the way I get to ultras now. Theory wise I thought going roach/ling and then into ultralisks would only be bad but I actually think it's better.
You don't need 10+ spines and have good fungels. It isn't as intense in terms of if you mess up with the lings/infestor by not fungeling right or he gets a good position it is harder to hold.
I still can do it with ling/infestor like this but I think goign roaches is better and a lot more forgiving. You still do the same double evo at same time and get carapace/melee except you also add a roach warren as well. This way it looks normal and you will be going roach/ling/infestor (only making roaches when you see he's making them) and then getting ultra's as normal.
This way is better as well in the fact that you can take a fourth when he does and it's extremely nice. I think it's much better personally and I decided to give it a go after being told I should.
On August 18 2012 08:44 Mavvie wrote: Okay, I need a little help with this style. I died to a roach/infestor timing that hit right when ultras popped. He made a 3-man-thick wall of infested terrans at my natural on cloud, my lings died to his roaches. My ultras were in my natural, infestors in my third, and the IT/roach just melted down my 5 ultralisks losing only a few units, if any. I know it was a razer-thin, really lucky timing; my ultras literally popped 10 seconds after he attacked. Was this bad luck, or are people figuring out this style? Full energy infestors can make walls like it's easy, and my ultras derp around and die.
Has anyone else had troubles with this, or is it just my bad macro and timings?
My advice would be more spines more infestors the more roach heavy the opponent is. If he's going for a big roach/hydra/infestor or roach/infestor army, I'd recommend getting more infestors, more spines. You should have more infestors than he has, imo. I think it's key that you watch for his 4th and hive timing - if he doesn't go for a fourth or hive, and is making more roaches, you should prepare with more spines, possibly up to even 10 infestors.
I think blade's approach would be quicker ultras, starting hive right when infestation pit is done, and then meeting this sort of attack with maxed out lings, some ultras, and just a few infestors. I personally feel a bit uncomfortable going hive so quickly if I see the opponent making roaches. Maybe blade would get more infestors himself if he sees the opponent is doing this, i can't exactly speak for him, but he seems to get his hive, ultras, really really quickly.
But FG can really tear down IT really quickly. Sometimes you can just end the game if the opponent does like a big roach/infestor/IT spam attack and you just FG his army over and over at a ramp or choke. I think i just play super defensively. if the opponent has no hive done when your ultras are coming, especially with no fourth, then he's deadmeat, so if he's making a lot of roaches, I never hesitate to make more spines, more infestors, so I can survive, because once those ultras pop, you basically win if he doesn't have hive and 4 bases himself, as long as you don't die to such roach bust.
I think your approach seems good. I wasn't being attacked, or even having any attacks feinted, so I just skipped spines almost altogether. Figure that once ultras pop it's basically GG, because I can expand freely and my army > his army. I guess that I was just really, really, really unlucky and if I had 4 spines at the choke to my nat I wouldn't have lost. Honestly, I was like "What the shit do I do now..."
I can't just back away. IT last 30(?) seconds, and they'd just roll through my double evo + natural. He killed my evos when 3/3 was 80% done aha. I guess this scenario doesn't happen often, I'll make sure to add spines even if he isn't being aggressive. I couldn't fungal IT because my infestors wouldn't make it near the front lines without getting fungalled or chased by roaches.
On cloud, you should have spines at the top of the natural ramp so that he can't come up. Plus a lot of spines at the 3rd ramp so that he has to go around, and a few spines in case he does go around.
Infestors should be somewhere between the 3rd and natural, probably split up, and you can chain fungal him any time he tries to go up either one of those ramps. he should not be able to hit your natural - the only somewhat viable attack route is a huge arc hitting the 3rd from both directions.
Any time he spams infested terrans, fungal them. When it looks like a battle is imminent, I start morphing some banelings to use some of my gas. Gas spent on ultralisks or infestors will pay off in 55 seconds, which doesn't matter if you're dead. banelings are for now. Banelings kill infested terrans, splash everything, and make him use more fungals instead of infested terrans.
Also bring queens. they are so good. Whenever I get around to finally attacking I use a nydus worm to bring the queens forward.
whenever possible, counterattack. Many of your zerglings won't contribute very much in a direct fight, so try to keep a lot of your lings active on the map, and use them to either counterattack just before a battle, or bring them in to flank for the battle itself. Flanking is always good, and counterattacking makes it okay for you take damage and still be in the game.
Awesome advice, thanks! I'll keep in mind to do all this.
On August 18 2012 10:24 blade55555 wrote: Hmm I have started changing the way I get to ultras now. Theory wise I thought going roach/ling and then into ultralisks would only be bad but I actually think it's better.
You don't need 10+ spines and have good fungels. It isn't as intense in terms of if you mess up with the lings/infestor by not fungeling right or he gets a good position it is harder to hold.
I still can do it with ling/infestor like this but I think goign roaches is better and a lot more forgiving. You still do the same double evo at same time and get carapace/melee except you also add a roach warren as well. This way it looks normal and you will be going roach/ling/infestor (only making roaches when you see he's making them) and then getting ultra's as normal.
This way is better as well in the fact that you can take a fourth when he does and it's extremely nice. I think it's much better personally and I decided to give it a go after being told I should.
So how many roaches do you make? Literally as many as your opponent is?
On August 18 2012 10:24 blade55555 wrote: Hmm I have started changing the way I get to ultras now. Theory wise I thought going roach/ling and then into ultralisks would only be bad but I actually think it's better.
You don't need 10+ spines and have good fungels. It isn't as intense in terms of if you mess up with the lings/infestor by not fungeling right or he gets a good position it is harder to hold.
I still can do it with ling/infestor like this but I think goign roaches is better and a lot more forgiving. You still do the same double evo at same time and get carapace/melee except you also add a roach warren as well. This way it looks normal and you will be going roach/ling/infestor (only making roaches when you see he's making them) and then getting ultra's as normal.
This way is better as well in the fact that you can take a fourth when he does and it's extremely nice. I think it's much better personally and I decided to give it a go after being told I should.
So how many roaches do you make? Literally as many as your opponent is?
Pretty much yeah as a defensive mechanism. I am going to add replays and I just did a video of it which will be uploaded tonight!
On August 18 2012 10:24 blade55555 wrote: Hmm I have started changing the way I get to ultras now. Theory wise I thought going roach/ling and then into ultralisks would only be bad but I actually think it's better.
You don't need 10+ spines and have good fungels. It isn't as intense in terms of if you mess up with the lings/infestor by not fungeling right or he gets a good position it is harder to hold.
I still can do it with ling/infestor like this but I think goign roaches is better and a lot more forgiving. You still do the same double evo at same time and get carapace/melee except you also add a roach warren as well. This way it looks normal and you will be going roach/ling/infestor (only making roaches when you see he's making them) and then getting ultra's as normal.
This way is better as well in the fact that you can take a fourth when he does and it's extremely nice. I think it's much better personally and I decided to give it a go after being told I should.
On August 18 2012 13:47 Oboeman wrote: Would you get roach speed? or does it depend on how many roaches you're forced into making?
Kind of like in zvt...
and zvp now that I think of it.
I always get roach speed in zvt, kind of a must imo xD
I think what he means is that because your roaches are defensive, are you still getting roach speed.
I meant zvz also. Yes zvz I always do. Didn't mean to say zvt woops.
But isn't it kind of a waste of gas if you're only using them defensively, the 100 gas saved could get you to Hive that little bit faster, and sometimes thats the difference between winning and losing.
On August 18 2012 13:47 Oboeman wrote: Would you get roach speed? or does it depend on how many roaches you're forced into making?
Kind of like in zvt...
and zvp now that I think of it.
I always get roach speed in zvt, kind of a must imo xD
I think what he means is that because your roaches are defensive, are you still getting roach speed.
I meant zvz also. Yes zvz I always do. Didn't mean to say zvt woops.
But isn't it kind of a waste of gas if you're only using them defensively, the 100 gas saved could get you to Hive that little bit faster, and sometimes thats the difference between winning and losing.
Yes but in zvz roach speed is very crucial. If you overstep with roaches and you don't get speed you are losing those roaches. If you want to be aggressive as you see you have a window (lets say you just crushed his army) you don't want slow roaches.
On August 18 2012 13:47 Oboeman wrote: Would you get roach speed? or does it depend on how many roaches you're forced into making?
Kind of like in zvt...
and zvp now that I think of it.
I always get roach speed in zvt, kind of a must imo xD
I think what he means is that because your roaches are defensive, are you still getting roach speed.
I meant zvz also. Yes zvz I always do. Didn't mean to say zvt woops.
But isn't it kind of a waste of gas if you're only using them defensively, the 100 gas saved could get you to Hive that little bit faster, and sometimes thats the difference between winning and losing.
Yes but in zvz roach speed is very crucial. If you overstep with roaches and you don't get speed you are losing those roaches. If you want to be aggressive as you see you have a window (lets say you just crushed his army) you don't want slow roaches.
On August 18 2012 13:47 Oboeman wrote: Would you get roach speed? or does it depend on how many roaches you're forced into making?
Kind of like in zvt...
and zvp now that I think of it.
I always get roach speed in zvt, kind of a must imo xD
I think what he means is that because your roaches are defensive, are you still getting roach speed.
I meant zvz also. Yes zvz I always do. Didn't mean to say zvt woops.
But isn't it kind of a waste of gas if you're only using them defensively, the 100 gas saved could get you to Hive that little bit faster, and sometimes thats the difference between winning and losing.
Yes but in zvz roach speed is very crucial. If you overstep with roaches and you don't get speed you are losing those roaches. If you want to be aggressive as you see you have a window (lets say you just crushed his army) you don't want slow roaches.
It's worth it trust me :D
Ok fair enough
I would think that we are stepping to some other build if we start using roaches. Isn't the big idea of this thread to go ling infestor into ultra? You are discussing about roach infestor into ultra now which is a bit different.
I try this build in almost each zvz game and I feel that its semi viable. I feel that heavy roach push can be hard to hold with lings + spines only. Against passive zerg player this build is great. How do you people feel when using this buid? Do you feel always in control or you got a feeling that you can slip and loose? Often I feel I can slip to some weird roach + baneling bust.
On August 18 2012 13:47 Oboeman wrote: Would you get roach speed? or does it depend on how many roaches you're forced into making?
Kind of like in zvt...
and zvp now that I think of it.
I always get roach speed in zvt, kind of a must imo xD
I think what he means is that because your roaches are defensive, are you still getting roach speed.
I meant zvz also. Yes zvz I always do. Didn't mean to say zvt woops.
But isn't it kind of a waste of gas if you're only using them defensively, the 100 gas saved could get you to Hive that little bit faster, and sometimes thats the difference between winning and losing.
Yes but in zvz roach speed is very crucial. If you overstep with roaches and you don't get speed you are losing those roaches. If you want to be aggressive as you see you have a window (lets say you just crushed his army) you don't want slow roaches.
It's worth it trust me :D
Ok fair enough
I would think that we are stepping to some other build if we start using roaches. Isn't the big idea of this thread to go ling infestor into ultra? You are discussing about roach infestor into ultra now which is a bit different.
I try this build in almost each zvz game and I feel that its semi viable. I feel that heavy roach push can be hard to hold with lings + spines only. Against passive zerg player this build is great. How do you people feel when using this buid? Do you feel always in control or you got a feeling that you can slip and loose? Often I feel I can slip to some weird roach + baneling bust.
Look at the replays he posted. The basic strategy is exactly the same. If adding in roaches when needed turns out to be superior, he shouldn't recommend that because that would be 'a different build'? The strategy boils down to safely getting 3/5 ultras, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with playing flexibly until that point.
On August 18 2012 13:47 Oboeman wrote: Would you get roach speed? or does it depend on how many roaches you're forced into making?
Kind of like in zvt...
and zvp now that I think of it.
I always get roach speed in zvt, kind of a must imo xD
I think what he means is that because your roaches are defensive, are you still getting roach speed.
I meant zvz also. Yes zvz I always do. Didn't mean to say zvt woops.
But isn't it kind of a waste of gas if you're only using them defensively, the 100 gas saved could get you to Hive that little bit faster, and sometimes thats the difference between winning and losing.
Yes but in zvz roach speed is very crucial. If you overstep with roaches and you don't get speed you are losing those roaches. If you want to be aggressive as you see you have a window (lets say you just crushed his army) you don't want slow roaches.
It's worth it trust me :D
Stephano does this exact opening in ZvZ nowadays, double evo with +1 melee and +1 carapace, get roach warren super late (after the third is down). But he stays on roaches after that. I think it is superior in the early game, 1/1 on lings will crush early roach pushes, big mobility allows him to jump between his third and the opponent's third to constantly threaten it and still defend.
Sadly he doesn't have the vods up for KR ladder but if you can catch his stream after MLG maybe he'll show it again.
On August 18 2012 13:47 Oboeman wrote: Would you get roach speed? or does it depend on how many roaches you're forced into making?
Kind of like in zvt...
and zvp now that I think of it.
I always get roach speed in zvt, kind of a must imo xD
I think what he means is that because your roaches are defensive, are you still getting roach speed.
I meant zvz also. Yes zvz I always do. Didn't mean to say zvt woops.
But isn't it kind of a waste of gas if you're only using them defensively, the 100 gas saved could get you to Hive that little bit faster, and sometimes thats the difference between winning and losing.
Yes but in zvz roach speed is very crucial. If you overstep with roaches and you don't get speed you are losing those roaches. If you want to be aggressive as you see you have a window (lets say you just crushed his army) you don't want slow roaches.
It's worth it trust me :D
Ok fair enough
I would think that we are stepping to some other build if we start using roaches. Isn't the big idea of this thread to go ling infestor into ultra? You are discussing about roach infestor into ultra now which is a bit different.
I try this build in almost each zvz game and I feel that its semi viable. I feel that heavy roach push can be hard to hold with lings + spines only. Against passive zerg player this build is great. How do you people feel when using this buid? Do you feel always in control or you got a feeling that you can slip and loose? Often I feel I can slip to some weird roach + baneling bust.
It's really not that different. The end result is the same and you still get ultralisks at about the same time (I start hive at 12 minutes).
You can hold roach/baneling bust but you need to have at least 5 spines I think it is and banelings of your own so that you can kill his banes with yours.
Also guys here's a video show casing my slight modification to this build!
Just faced a guy who went roach aggression into roach turtling with mass spine into mass mass brood lord. He skipped infestors. This is probably fairly limited information but what is the best way to react to this?
It was also on Shakuras so defensive spines and brood lord push was really strong and made it impossible to counter.
EPT
