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On July 31 2012 05:28 wcr.4fun wrote:
I hate this strategy actually. Everyone I meet is just doing this style. Gives really silly late game scenario's...
Nothing beats ultra's, except more ultra's... That's an obvious game design mistake.
Or am I oblivious to some unit which can actually win fights versus ultra/infestor? I never do this style but when playing against it roach hydra infestors do okey against it. You need good upgrades and really really good position and lob infested terrans infront of the ultras.
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The ultra vs ultra battle gets decided by little things, like infested terran placement, ultralisk concave, and transfuses. it's a weird as hell fight.
There are times where instead of starting another ultralisk that will finish in 55 seconds you want to make a bunch of banelings immediately for taking out infested terrans, zerglings, and doing up front burst damage to get some of his ultralisks out of the fight earlier.
It's weird and generally not very well understood so it feels like it's just massing ultralisks and humping the other guys ultralisks.
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I've been having a lot of trouble recently with zergs who go fast third into mass roaches, they dont' drone up the third at all, especially on maps like condemned or ohana. Should I just make spines at my natural and trade thirds until I can make 20 spines in my natural that I then uproot to cover both bases? or should I worry about getting infestors out more quickly? I've also lost a few times to roach/hydra/infestor pushes, am I just not getting ultras quick enough, or should I be making more spines and infestors? Considering the 50 second build time of ultras, I'm thinking maybe I should be making way more spines?
Just hard to pull this strat off on maps like ohana and condemned ;/
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Wow I have so much success using this strat! I was struggling really bad at ZvZ (Plat league) but now I am doing a lot better. My attack only come at 20mins though. It is often delayed because of lings/banes exchange early on.
I feel that when I get the composition it is unstoppable. My opponents usually get roachs and banes because they see lots of lings on my side. I fungal what I can and I watch his army melt. Only 1 time have I seen another player using the same strat. He had faster ultras so he won.
Wanted to thank you for giving me hope in ZvZ. I was like 10-15% winrate only before 
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How do you react against very fast B4 ? Your T3 is not done yet and if you wait until ultra to get B4 your opponent will be so ahead economically that you will never secure a B4.
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On July 31 2012 12:52 Belial88 wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble recently with zergs who go fast third into mass roaches, they dont' drone up the third at all, especially on maps like condemned or ohana. Should I just make spines at my natural and trade thirds until I can make 20 spines in my natural that I then uproot to cover both bases? or should I worry about getting infestors out more quickly? I've also lost a few times to roach/hydra/infestor pushes, am I just not getting ultras quick enough, or should I be making more spines and infestors? Considering the 50 second build time of ultras, I'm thinking maybe I should be making way more spines?
Just hard to pull this strat off on maps like ohana and condemned ;/
Same problem here, probably this strat must be used on long maps (daybreak, metropolis...) and not on maps with a small choke on your natural.
Stephano changed the way he plays this strat. He now go on +1/+1 lings into +1 speed roaches infestors. He uses his 1/1 lings to harass and snipes bases.
Maybe he realized its way too defensive and its easy for the opponent to have a lot of economy if he plays defensively.
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On July 31 2012 12:52 Belial88 wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble recently with zergs who go fast third into mass roaches, they dont' drone up the third at all, especially on maps like condemned or ohana. Should I just make spines at my natural and trade thirds until I can make 20 spines in my natural that I then uproot to cover both bases? or should I worry about getting infestors out more quickly? I've also lost a few times to roach/hydra/infestor pushes, am I just not getting ultras quick enough, or should I be making more spines and infestors? Considering the 50 second build time of ultras, I'm thinking maybe I should be making way more spines?
Just hard to pull this strat off on maps like ohana and condemned ;/
You take a 3rd when he does OR when you get infestors. With infestors, you can get 5 spines at your 3rd (drop creep if necessary) and hold the choke/ramp/whatever. You'll hold cost-efficiently against almost anything. It's hard to imagine needing 20 spines when you have infestors. Maps with a wide 3rd will need a few more spines, true. Even on cloud kingdom I start with 4-5 spines at the ramp, and then later on I'll add a few more spines around the side.
If he takes his 3rd long before this, you take yours, but don't defend it against a committed attack. Trade 3rds if he moves out. Drone your 3rd when he drones his, or when you have infestors. This forces him to stay 2base vs 2 base until you have infestor (which is what you want) or he lets you get your 3rd.
I don't think you can rely on getting ultralisks out in time to stop roach/hydra infestor pushes. Again, what you do is use your spinecrawlers and infestors to defend cost-efficiently, and counterattack with groups of zerglings (not all of them) to put him all in.
can you put down a roach warren, just in case, and crank out a bunch of roaches to help defend just before his push if he does a heavy timing? Maybe, but I don't think it's necessary. If your counter-attacks do damage, it's okay for you to take some damage, and then you have 5/3 ultralisks.
How do you react against very fast B4 ? Your T3 is not done yet and if you wait until ultra to get B4 your opponent will be so ahead economically that you will never secure a B4.
Same as B3. Mirror his expansion, and counterattack to trade 4ths if he moves out. If his 4th is defended, maybe you can take out his 3rd instead for the same effect. At least, that is the idea. I don't know if it is always feasible - maybe he can spare leaving enough units behind and still deny your 4th. But you are on a 3 base economy as well, you can afford a lot of spines. Maybe with creep drop you can get a zillion spinecrawlers finished so that you can actually hold the 4th base while counterattacking.
This is probably the best response from a roach player. Take a 4th base, keep enough units at home to defend backstabs, delay the opponent's 4th, and then go for ultralisks himself.
Also I have to add that I am finding ultralisk mirrors to be hilarious. You have to get yourself a concave before the fight, and spam infested terrans, and then fungal his lings and his infested terrans. I'm always getting a nydus worm now and keeping queens in it so I can transfuse in every battle, and it's great. The battles are so funny to watch.
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I've played against this 2x and tried it myself. I like it, if the opponent tries to push with a big roach army like I'm sure its in the guide. But the lings can counter opponent base, with a spine wall + infestor fungal and more lings pumping is nice defense at home.
If opponent waits to long you have your Ultra ling infestor comp. I WANT TO play! Damn pc is broke.
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I just played a match with this style against a roach/hydra/baneling timing and managed to hold it off. Every time I play this style I have to see how many kills the ultras get, it's quite hilarious.
Here's a vod for anyone interested: http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian/b/327763882?t=42m
Thanks again blade. 
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On August 08 2012 06:17 oOOoOphidian wrote:I just played a match with this style against a roach/hydra/baneling timing and managed to hold it off. Every time I play this style I have to see how many kills the ultras get, it's quite hilarious. Here's a vod for anyone interested: http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian/b/327763882?t=42mThanks again blade.
That's my favorite part to, to see how many kills my ultralisks get. Always fun to see ultras go nomnomnom over roaches and stuff ^_^
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I've been having a hell of a time using this build recently, especially on maps like shakuras and ohana, when the opponent goes third before lair, and then masses roaches (and doesnt drone his third up at all).
I also am really unsure of how to use this build if the opponent just stays on 2 base and never grabs a third. Like say I have a game winning lead in the early game (hold off a 6 pool, he went ling/bane all-in, he's going 2 base lair mass speed roach, whatever)...
Do you need to get the infestors out quickly? I always get 24 drones on each main and nat before I really make many lings or infestors, should I be cutting drones more maybe with this style? What happens if you make 10 spines?
I'm just a little lost on this build, especially on those maps. Like, I'll do the whole trade-thirds thing, but I don't have infestors, and so he walks right past the spines or something, should I be pushing infestors more quickly?
I mean, when he does a late push, or roach max, that's fine, moar spines, moar infestors, whatever. It's these pushes that just kill me when I could have mass spines, or maybe infestors, or maybe lings, but not all 3, and i get screwed.
I'll provide a rep soon. Maybe I should mass the spines in my natural now on... like make 20 spines in my natural on ohana, if he goes for my third, just trade, and then re-root the spines when I have enough infestors or something. Or should I not take a third when the opponent goes fast third? I mean you say take third when he takes it, but the economy doesn't seem to work out right because here I am on 4 gas (maybe 3, if i identify he took a third quick enough and I take it exactly time and I identify I need spines/minerals, but then I have way less infestors...). Maybe I should stick to a 2 base build with this, even against third before lair play, and then just take my third once infestors pop.
just really hard to pull this off on ohana/shakuras/condemned sometimes. I've started to play standard on those maps again recently because of this third before lair into mass roach with no droning of the third play. I never have infestors in time for these attacks, maybe that's the problem.
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You take your 3rd when he takes his 3rd, but you don't actually try to defend your 3rd until you have infestors. Keep your spines at your natural, don't commit any money to spines at the 3rd until you have infestors.
The plan is to trade 3rds if he attacks, or surround and kill his army if he divides it too much.
But if you don't try to take your 3rd earlier, he has a macro lead and total control over the game. your 3rd base is aggressive.
If you can't successfully trade 3rds, or can't get infestors in time to hold your 3rd when you need to, then maybe you are overmaking spines to hold your natural? you need a round of speedlings already out on the map before he can push your 3rd, and you can't delay infestors very much. The timings are all pretty sensitive.
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^ Thanks, that makes it clearer.
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Wow your voice is really nice, you're lucky 
Anyways, this style seems to be fun for me since i already use alot of Zerglings in ZvZ all game. I think that another advantage you got with this style is like small harassment groups of lings who can take out a queen and some drones if the enemy is out of possition.
btw, thanks for the guide!
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In zvz, I have recently been using mutas midgame and long aggression to make sure my third is well before the opponents, and then transitioning into ultras. I have found that I like the use of aggression more than defense to get to the lategame. I am still able to afford double ups and infestors due to getting a small amount of mutas. I was just curious to hear anyone's thoughts on this...
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On August 10 2012 09:18 sewergoat wrote:
In zvz, I have recently been using mutas midgame and long aggression to make sure my third is well before the opponents, and then transitioning into ultras. I have found that I like the use of aggression more than defense to get to the lategame. I am still able to afford double ups and infestors due to getting a small amount of mutas. I was just curious to hear anyone's thoughts on this...
That's fine it just delays ultras by a couple minutes compared to this build. Going muta first isn't a problem as long as you know your transitions and how to defend vs whatever and know when to transition and not die.
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You play the build way different than I do - you get not nearly as many spines as I do (on maps like Ohana I'll make a line of side by side spines...), i think you get a lot more lings instead, and you get hive way quicker. I usually make up to like 8+ infestors if the opponent goes roaches. Ultras just have such a huge timing window to come out I feel like I can't rely on them to come out in time vs roach+tech attacks.
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On August 11 2012 02:55 Belial88 wrote:
You play the build way different than I do - you get not nearly as many spines as I do (on maps like Ohana I'll make a line of side by side spines...), i think you get a lot more lings instead, and you get hive way quicker. I usually make up to like 8+ infestors if the opponent goes roaches. Ultras just have such a huge timing window to come out I feel like I can't rely on them to come out in time vs roach+tech attacks.
Just have to use infestors/lings well and counter attacks. I get normally at least 5 per base (in terms of natural/third) and get about 8 or so infestors by the time my hive finishes and that is normally when they will do their timing.
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http://drop.sc/236317
Here is a game of me losing in a somewhat weird game. I felt like I botched my macro primarily and over reacted to mutas. I also threw away the fungals that probably would have kept me alive vs. the impending roach push. I should have put down 5 spinecrawlers to defend my third. Any comments so I can improve my zvz?
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http://drop.sc/236914
Here's a game where we both went fast third, very passive at the start, and then he masses speedroaches after saturating his bases.
I tried to sort of follow what you sort of do, but I just die. I tyhink I should have massed way more spines, maybe I should have delayed my third gas and instead gotten more spines and stuff. I didn't get hive like you do, I couldnt imagine surviving if I had started hive.
I'm just going to stick with my style of maybe not droning up my third and massing spines and infestors and then going hive much later.
I'm guessing this style just isn't viable on maps like shakuras.. (this replay wasn't on shakuras, just an aside)
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EPT
