EPT[G] Zerg vs Zerg ling/infestor into ultralisks - Page 12
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
It's so terriible to play against this style. It's like a time bomb and when Ultras are out or even when more then 2 infestors are out you have actually lost the game. | ||
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CoughingHydra
177 Posts
On August 12 2012 16:19 Belial88 wrote: http://drop.sc/236914 Here's a game where we both went fast third, very passive at the start, and then he masses speedroaches after saturating his bases. I tried to sort of follow what you sort of do, but I just die. I tyhink I should have massed way more spines, maybe I should have delayed my third gas and instead gotten more spines and stuff. I didn't get hive like you do, I couldnt imagine surviving if I had started hive. I'm just going to stick with my style of maybe not droning up my third and massing spines and infestors and then going hive much later. I'm guessing this style just isn't viable on maps like shakuras.. (this replay wasn't on shakuras, just an aside) In that replay you just fell further and further behind in the drone count, I don't think there was a point where you were even at drones and that's the main reason you had almost nothing while he had an actual army in the end. First, why such an early spine when you scouted he went for the ~14pool ~16hatch build and only at about 3:45 he started gas. Generally you can start your spine(s) 2 minutes after he takes his 1 gas. Second, why would you get such early gas yourself if you don't want to be aggressive yourself ( and you went baneling nest first?! ) and actually you could have just killed him with mass zerglings cause he had only 2 queens and no spines within a long period of time ( and he didn't scout at all and was playing very risky ) - and this weakness you could have scouted with a pair of lings. Also, injects aren't as good as they should be - one of the reasons you fell behind in larva and thus fell behind in drones, and the second reason you fell behind in larva is you didn't/couldn't spend larva as soon as it pops (you get larva from hatcheries this way) because you invested so much money in early tech you didn't use ( speed, bling nest ). If the reason you get early speed and bling nest is you're afraid of early ling bling all-ins, then i'll just say that the best defense is a good offense - but you don't need to commit if the other guy is well defended, just try to force some units, otherwise you'll fall behind vs greedy players like in this replay. So, as you can see, you would have lost even if you went roaches yourself... | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't think my spine and bane nest were unnecessarily early - most pros tend to get their spine/bane nest around 30-35 supply. But they end up banking about 100+ gas too, so I think just getting it on 26 is the better choice, since you don't bank gas and a ling/bane all-in can occur before a 30+ bane nest finishes. But I suppose against pool/hatch builds I'll remove 2 off gas or something from now on. I suppose I could have killed him with ling/bane, but it's not like I was able to scout reliably that he was being that greedy. I think now on against pool/hatch builds though I'll scout with 2 lings right away for that though, i think that's an interesting idea. I'll work on optimizing my build to be a bit greedier against pool/hatch builds. Maybe make the spine way later or something. I really feel a bane nest early on is important, 30+ puts you vulnerable to ling/bane all-ins and isn't honest enough imo, and you end up banking gas so might as well take it 2 supply earlier. I'll look over the game, see where my macro failed though. thanks. | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
On August 12 2012 16:57 gronnelg wrote: My zvz is no longer an auto-loss thanks to this build. Yay! :D Exactly the same for me, high Platinum player here. I was winning about 10% of my ZvZs before. Now maybe 40-50% with this strat. I found that I get behind on macro sometime I might be missing some injects and all. But when I do get that composition going, it is almost unstoppable. Armies melt so fast it`s not even funny. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dy7Qb.png) I'm still having much success myself and don't quite know what blind counters he means, but I thought this might help you guys. | ||
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M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
I think before going to lair its better to do this - get 1 gas - get speed and start evolution chambers + 2nd gas. Get macro hatch to be able to produce more lings. When you start lair produce mass lings and start your 3rd. Then add aditional gasses when you start infestor tech. Dont rush too fast to get all gas since you will reduce your mineral income which can help a lot when you want to kill roaches with lings + spines. This build is much more fun then roach wars, but I can tell that it is much much harder to understand. And opponent can much easier secure /make fast 3rd by defending it with baneling/roach then you with lings/banelings only. I heard some people do get 1 evolution and +1 roach attack then add additional evolution chamber and start dual upgrades meele/carapace. that way they can get 3rd more safe and get to ling/ultra/infestor eventually. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:48 oOOoOphidian wrote: I asked Stephano why he changed up his style: I'm still having much success myself and don't quite know what blind counters he means, but I thought this might help you guys. well like everything else there are little exploits. If you know for a fact your opponent is doing this style you can be greedy and take a faster fourth knowing that he can't kill or abuse it since he is going ultralisks. I mean that's the only thing I can really think of as a blind counter and being super defensive maybe with many spines? Not sure but I can agree with him if you are a big time player and only do one build, expect it to get blind countered eventually xD | ||
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M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
On August 15 2012 09:43 blade55555 wrote: well like everything else there are little exploits. If you know for a fact your opponent is doing this style you can be greedy and take a faster fourth knowing that he can't kill or abuse it since he is going ultralisks. I mean that's the only thing I can really think of as a blind counter and being super defensive maybe with many spines? Not sure but I can agree with him if you are a big time player and only do one build, expect it to get blind countered eventually xD I would say that blind counter is roach + baneling + ling attack when opponent has ~50 drones on 2 bases | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
wtf. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On August 16 2012 11:50 Belial88 wrote: i cant find any pro VODS of anyone doing this. wtf. stephano turned all his vods off, but they'll be back after MLG. check out symbol vs nestea and drg vs symbol for some examples in GSL | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 16 2012 12:58 oOOoOphidian wrote: stephano turned all his vods off, but they'll be back after MLG. check out symbol vs nestea and drg vs symbol for some examples in GSL stephano vs some korean zerg in a tournament to. | ||
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
On August 15 2012 19:54 M4nkind wrote: I would say that blind counter is roach + baneling + ling attack when opponent has ~50 drones on 2 bases Couldn't you blind counter by getting fast BLs? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you mass spines, the ultra player will then simply transition into broodlords himself, except he's been on 5+ bases while you were only on 3 this whole time, so he'll definitely win that battle. He really doesn't need to make broodlords anytime sono since ultra/infestor/ling doesn't care about spines, so he'll kill your entire army, and then finish you up as you are starved on 3 base. Broodlords are the endgame goal for zerg, but there's just no feasible way to get there. Roach/hydra/infestor armies just counterattack broodlords like crazy (nydus, etc even), while ultras will have too much map control against someone who goes broodlords before ultras. I don't really know how you blind counter this build, except maybe on certain maps. i dont think you can do this ling/infestor build on maps like shakuras where the third is so far. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
You'd defend in the same way, but I don't know if someone going infestor would get as far ahead after making (and losing) that many spinecrawlers, although I suppose you'd have the opportunity to play aggressively instead of defensively. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
While Nestea did some nice counter attacking and burrowed infestor stuff that game, Violet played it out quite horribly imo. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
check out symbol vs nestea and drg vs symbol for some examples in GSL that was a long time ago though by now. ill recheck them out though. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I know it was a razer-thin, really lucky timing; my ultras literally popped 10 seconds after he attacked. Was this bad luck, or are people figuring out this style? Full energy infestors can make walls like it's easy, and my ultras derp around and die. Has anyone else had troubles with this, or is it just my bad macro and timings? | ||
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Psychlone
Canada90 Posts
Completely passive Roach-Hydra-Infestor expending style with lots of spines everywhere. I would fungal his zerglings and spam infested terrans at his face. His army became so cost inefficient and just crashed harmlessly on my defenses. I just kept a good overlord spread and kept a few infestors to fungal ling runbys. He eventually tried to counter my ITs with ITs of his own, but I had a big upgrade advantage. He quickly ran out of steam and collapsed soon thereafter. | ||
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