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In my experience the roach/infestor player still has some option. Hydra are very good against ultra, and if he reacts and scout what you're doing he should get his 4 th before you.
Now i can't be sure of what i'm saying here cause i'm not a pro, so my practice and timings are off, but i think that if he didn't make too much roaches and swith to hydra he should handle the push ( with IT to mess with the big ultra AI ). Then go to +3+3 and they usually go Brood lord.
I guess the ultra/ling player has try to attack the hydras with baneling without loosing them on roaches. Also more importantly abuse of his mobility, maybe nydus ( attack the expend, and get away with nydus when his army arrive, then go to the 4 th etc... ). And get some corruptor to catch the brood isolated.
It's hard, but damn it's nice to have an other option in ZvZ !
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On July 11 2012 21:35 Super_bricklayer wrote:
In my experience the roach/infestor player still has some option. Hydra are very good against ultra, and if he reacts and scout what you're doing he should get his 4 th before you.
Now i can't be sure of what i'm saying here cause i'm not a pro, so my practice and timings are off, but i think that if he didn't make too much roaches and swith to hydra he should handle the push ( with IT to mess with the big ultra AI ). Then go to +3+3 and they usually go Brood lord.
I guess the ultra/ling player has try to attack the hydras with baneling without loosing them on roaches. Also more importantly abuse of his mobility, maybe nydus ( attack the expend, and get away with nydus when his army arrive, then go to the 4 th etc... ). And get some corruptor to catch the brood isolated.
It's hard, but damn it's nice to have an other option in ZvZ !
I don't think broodlords are the way to go in zvz at any point. I feel burrowed infestors spamming IT below them will kill them if needed, but more often than not the more mobile ultra/ling army will just fight where the broodlords aren't.
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In my experience the roach/infestor player still has some option. Hydra are very good against ultra, and if he reacts and scout what you're doing he should get his 4 th before you.
Now i can't be sure of what i'm saying here cause i'm not a pro, so my practice and timings are off, but i think that if he didn't make too much roaches and swith to hydra he should handle the push ( with IT to mess with the big ultra AI ). Then go to +3+3 and they usually go Brood lord.
I guess the ultra/ling player has try to attack the hydras with baneling without loosing them on roaches. Also more importantly abuse of his mobility, maybe nydus ( attack the expend, and get away with nydus when his army arrive, then go to the 4 th etc... ). And get some corruptor to catch the brood isolated.
It's hard, but damn it's nice to have an other option in ZvZ !
If you go hydras and it's so late in the game that I'm on 3 base with ultras, I'll get speed for my banelings and just roll you. Hydras are okay for mid-game aggression against ling/infestor when they are trying to take their third (i mean it's kind of all-in but whatever) but against a zerg with ultras, it's terrible...
Against ultras you just have to constantly split and stutter step. Something you can't exactly do with hydras, and when you put speedbanes in the equation along with FG, there's just no way you are running away. There's been times where someone had hydras and yea, raped my ultras, but I learned after that and now every time I faced someone trying to go roach/hydra vs my ultras, my speedbanes own them.
Ultras just destroy any roach based army. I've lost about 3 games in lategame with this style, and none of them involved a roach based army (and i think they were just more mistakes on my part anyways).
I always patrol lings in my base to make sure no one can nydus, and I spread overlords to spot for drops. If the opponent does some drops, I'll re-root a few spines to cover mineral lines against any sort of drop harass.
I don't think broodlords are the way to go in zvz at any point. I feel burrowed infestors spamming IT below them will kill them if needed, but more often than not the more mobile ultra/ling army will just fight where the broodlords aren't.
Pure broodlord/corruptor with 1-2 infestors at most, is the best army in zvz lategame, but is extremely expensive and the game almost never gets to that point. But yea, ultras are becoming better than broodlords now in zvz. I dont think infestors are very good against broodlords though... you aren't going to get in range to IT spam against 10 broodlords that are killing every infestor and flooding broodlings, especially if he has his own infestor support. Infestors are terrible against broodlords and ultras, unless you get a ridiculous 15+ mass of them.
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On July 11 2012 23:40 Belial88 wrote:
Infestors are terrible against broodlords and ultras, unless you get a ridiculous 15+ mass of them.
Generally I end up with this many infestors after my 3-3 is done since I still like to build plenty of lings, not pure ultra.
Maybe that's the wrong way to go about it though? not sure. I like my infestors =]
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On July 11 2012 23:40 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +In my experience the roach/infestor player still has some option. Hydra are very good against ultra, and if he reacts and scout what you're doing he should get his 4 th before you.
Now i can't be sure of what i'm saying here cause i'm not a pro, so my practice and timings are off, but i think that if he didn't make too much roaches and swith to hydra he should handle the push ( with IT to mess with the big ultra AI ). Then go to +3+3 and they usually go Brood lord.
I guess the ultra/ling player has try to attack the hydras with baneling without loosing them on roaches. Also more importantly abuse of his mobility, maybe nydus ( attack the expend, and get away with nydus when his army arrive, then go to the 4 th etc... ). And get some corruptor to catch the brood isolated.
It's hard, but damn it's nice to have an other option in ZvZ ! Pure broodlord/corruptor with 1-2 infestors at most, is the best army in zvz lategame, but is extremely expensive and the game almost never gets to that point. But yea, ultras are becoming better than broodlords now in zvz. I dont think infestors are very good against broodlords though... you aren't going to get in range to IT spam against 10 broodlords that are killing every infestor and flooding broodlings, especially if he has his own infestor support. Infestors are terrible against broodlords and ultras, unless you get a ridiculous 15+ mass of them.
Actually i disagree. I think Broodlord infestor with few corruptors beats BL/corruptor with few infestors, because fungal + ITs are very effective against corruptors and they are renewable with energy, which is important in long drawn out late game fights.
Generally im not a very big fan of broodlords anymore tho, because the transition is very hard to make, and you need huge amounts of spines at every base to defend against drops when your army becomes less and less mobile.
Question about the guide: how do you defend against simply mass roach from 3 bases? this is basically what i always lose to when i play the kind of style described here. And thats also how i often win against it. It seems like the critical point is whether the roachplayer takes damage from lings rather early on or whether he can stabilize and prepare for a big push (hitting before there are many infestors out).
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On July 12 2012 01:21 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 23:40 Belial88 wrote:In my experience the roach/infestor player still has some option. Hydra are very good against ultra, and if he reacts and scout what you're doing he should get his 4 th before you.
Now i can't be sure of what i'm saying here cause i'm not a pro, so my practice and timings are off, but i think that if he didn't make too much roaches and swith to hydra he should handle the push ( with IT to mess with the big ultra AI ). Then go to +3+3 and they usually go Brood lord.
I guess the ultra/ling player has try to attack the hydras with baneling without loosing them on roaches. Also more importantly abuse of his mobility, maybe nydus ( attack the expend, and get away with nydus when his army arrive, then go to the 4 th etc... ). And get some corruptor to catch the brood isolated.
It's hard, but damn it's nice to have an other option in ZvZ ! Pure broodlord/corruptor with 1-2 infestors at most, is the best army in zvz lategame, but is extremely expensive and the game almost never gets to that point. But yea, ultras are becoming better than broodlords now in zvz. I dont think infestors are very good against broodlords though... you aren't going to get in range to IT spam against 10 broodlords that are killing every infestor and flooding broodlings, especially if he has his own infestor support. Infestors are terrible against broodlords and ultras, unless you get a ridiculous 15+ mass of them. Actually i disagree. I think Broodlord infestor with few corruptors beats BL/corruptor with few infestors, because fungal + ITs are very effective against corruptors and they are renewable with energy, which is important in long drawn out late game fights. Generally im not a very big fan of broodlords anymore tho, because the transition is very hard to make, and you need huge amounts of spines at every base to defend against drops when your army becomes less and less mobile. Question about the guide: how do you defend against simply mass roach from 3 bases? this is basically what i always lose to when i play the kind of style described here. And thats also how i often win against it. It seems like the critical point is whether the roachplayer takes damage from lings rather early on or whether he can stabilize and prepare for a big push (hitting before there are many infestors out).
Yeah I heaviliy dislike broodlords in zvz. I used to like them but even before I started doing this build broodlords stopped working for me eventually and it was a super big pain in the ass when the player would just run around them and counter attack, base trade style so I stopped with that.
Defending against mass roach 3 base style requires at minimum 5 spine crawlers at natural/third which you should be able to afford quiet easily unless you just make them all at once. What I do is have at least 5 spines at each (preferably at the top of the ramp if it's a map like entombed for aexample).
To get the spines up earlier so if they decide to do an early attack once I hit lair I will put a couple overlords at the edge of the ramp to spew creep and get some spines there. I also split my infestors so that no matter which side he tries to go on I will be able to fungel him and i'll try to do a surround with lings if possible or at least wait until he's in more open ground before attacking full on with lings while I use infestors.
I don't know if I have any replays in the OP atm but I know I played a game on the kr server vs a zerg that did a 3 base roach push but I can't remember if he did it good or if he was just bad i'll make sure to look at some replays and upload them as I can't remember if any are in the OP or not.
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Had a 36 kill ultralisk against a roach/hydra player earlier... quite a fun style when it gets to hive, especially as you'll usually have hive faster than your opponent unless they did the same style. I'm definitely getting the hang of the number of spines and infestors needed to hold heavy roach/hydra attacks. I still feel it's only really viable on maps with chokes at the 3rd and natural, as the infestors are way more important than the lings, so open areas only help so much.
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Very awsome guide, this is very viable, even if they go broods it still dominates (Spit a bunch of infested terrans and fungal the broods) This is now my new ZvZ Keep up the good work!
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On July 12 2012 01:21 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 23:40 Belial88 wrote:In my experience the roach/infestor player still has some option. Hydra are very good against ultra, and if he reacts and scout what you're doing he should get his 4 th before you.
Now i can't be sure of what i'm saying here cause i'm not a pro, so my practice and timings are off, but i think that if he didn't make too much roaches and swith to hydra he should handle the push ( with IT to mess with the big ultra AI ). Then go to +3+3 and they usually go Brood lord.
I guess the ultra/ling player has try to attack the hydras with baneling without loosing them on roaches. Also more importantly abuse of his mobility, maybe nydus ( attack the expend, and get away with nydus when his army arrive, then go to the 4 th etc... ). And get some corruptor to catch the brood isolated.
It's hard, but damn it's nice to have an other option in ZvZ ! Pure broodlord/corruptor with 1-2 infestors at most, is the best army in zvz lategame, but is extremely expensive and the game almost never gets to that point. But yea, ultras are becoming better than broodlords now in zvz. I dont think infestors are very good against broodlords though... you aren't going to get in range to IT spam against 10 broodlords that are killing every infestor and flooding broodlings, especially if he has his own infestor support. Infestors are terrible against broodlords and ultras, unless you get a ridiculous 15+ mass of them. Actually i disagree. I think Broodlord infestor with few corruptors beats BL/corruptor with few infestors, because fungal + ITs are very effective against corruptors and they are renewable with energy, which is important in long drawn out late game fights. Generally im not a very big fan of broodlords anymore tho, because the transition is very hard to make, and you need huge amounts of spines at every base to defend against drops when your army becomes less and less mobile. Question about the guide: how do you defend against simply mass roach from 3 bases? this is basically what i always lose to when i play the kind of style described here. And thats also how i often win against it. It seems like the critical point is whether the roachplayer takes damage from lings rather early on or whether he can stabilize and prepare for a big push (hitting before there are many infestors out).
Really?
Broodlord/infestor will beat any attempt to get pure broodlord/corruptor for a long time. You can't really go straight into BL/Corruptor, at all, and most games will end 'early' with both players 'only' on pure bl/infestor. I've had less than 10 games total go like this, but there have been very, very cases where I've had games where it was pure broodlord/corruptor vs bl/infestor.
I think it only happens on shakuras plateau, although I do recall it happening once on Metalopolis when we both took the golds. So it requires at least 6 bases to do this.
But I'm talking about 200/200, with 80 or whatever drones, and your army has zero roaches or lings or anything like that in it, the person with pure broodlord/corruptor with maybe 1-2 infestors, will beat someone with pure broodlord with like 10 infestors. With both sides having at least like 13 broodlords.
Yes, infestors are okay against corruptors, but when you get in a situation where both players have 3/3 air and like 14+ broodlords, infestors just can't really get in range, you have enough broodlords that you can just back off if the other players spams IT, and you have so many corruptors that just kill broodlords so quick.
I'm not at all recommending here don't make infestors, before you can get to this stage of the game, you both need to have a broodlord/infestor army, as you can't just not get infestors and go straight into broodlord/corruptor, or you'll get owned (mass roach owns broodlord/corruptor before you have about 50+ spines everywhere too, another reason you can't just do that).
So I'm not saying it's as simple as "bl/corruptor > bl/infestor'. What I'm saying is that, when the game gets to 6+ bases, both of you have 3/3 on air (how many games have you had 3/3 air in a zvz? exactly), there are over 50 spines on each side that prevent mass roach from just trolling past, and both of you had 15+ broodlords, pure bl/corruptor is better than bl/infestor. It's a very, very rare situation though, and I only say this after I lost a couple games going bl/infestor against pure bl/corruptor in extreme lategame.
I mean that's how I've always experienced the game. You can't really afford to go bl/corruptor with 3/3 much earlier than 5-6 bases, and bl/infestor will definitely own you if you dont have enough infestors. Maybe test it out in unit tester? It's a very rare thing though, before it gets to this stage, bl/infestor owns for sure. It's just, once the game gets to that point, you can't just have a back and forth of bl/infestor vs bl/infestor, the player who replaces his infestors with more broodlord/corruptor, will get ahead, as once you have 15+ 3/3 broodlords, infestors just aren't really that good anymore as you can't get in range to FG the broodlords or spam IT under them. Hence why you'll start to need like 10+ corruptors.
Sounds like not enough spines though (in regards to losing to roach).
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If you go for this very defensive style, why would you upgrade Metabolic Boost before getting defensive Banes?
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^ That's a very early game thing... but if I see my opponent get banes before speed (ie has banes super early, clearly gotten before speed, or didn't open gas), then I just go greedy as fuck because I know there will be zero ability from him to pressure without ling speed.
And it's not like, say, opening 14/14 to 'trick out' Terran, ling/bane is a very real threat in ZvZ because of larva inject.
I don't think skipping speed/bane is an option in early game ZvZ. I've heard of 4 queen 2+ spine defense in ZvZ, but I don't think that cost effective and every time I've faced it I just go greedy as fuck in the early game, and then at like 40+ I just mass ling/bane, bust their evo chamber defense, focus their hatch, win.
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I've been having an issue with hatch-first into ling/festor/ultra style lately against the lower leagues. That problem being that they plain old don't move out when they're supposed to with roach/bane or roach/hydra or roach/ling.
In your replays your opponents use proper timings and their roach/whatever army to pressure or try to kill you at the third or natural. My question is what should I do if they DON'T use a proper timing with the roach/whatever army and rather use it to take a third and possibly go for a really late (probably bad) muta switch timing (they do get out more mutas this way) or they just go for a timing very similar to the second roach army move-out I saw in your replays but with the army of the first timing added onto the timing of the second push.
Is a ton more spines the answer? I've tried 5-6 spines even and its just not enough once they have over 80 supply of army even with fungals. Should I just use the extra time they give me to drone up faster and push along the tech while making 10-12 spines at each vulnerability in my bases?
I realize what they're doing is probably considered "bad", but at lower leagues that is ALL you face. Pushes that look scarier and have more durability because of basically doing less and waiting for what pros would consider "bad" timings. Its tough to discern proper responses to these weird attacks.
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On July 15 2012 20:55 sCCrooked wrote:
I've been having an issue with hatch-first into ling/festor/ultra style lately against the lower leagues. That problem being that they plain old don't move out when they're supposed to with roach/bane or roach/hydra or roach/ling.
In your replays your opponents use proper timings and their roach/whatever army to pressure or try to kill you at the third or natural. My question is what should I do if they DON'T use a proper timing with the roach/whatever army and rather use it to take a third and possibly go for a really late (probably bad) muta switch timing (they do get out more mutas this way) or they just go for a timing very similar to the second roach army move-out I saw in your replays but with the army of the first timing added onto the timing of the second push.
Is a ton more spines the answer? I've tried 5-6 spines even and its just not enough once they have over 80 supply of army even with fungals. Should I just use the extra time they give me to drone up faster and push along the tech while making 10-12 spines at each vulnerability in my bases?
I realize what they're doing is probably considered "bad", but at lower leagues that is ALL you face. Pushes that look scarier and have more durability because of basically doing less and waiting for what pros would consider "bad" timings. Its tough to discern proper responses to these weird attacks.
If they aren't pushing out at all that's fine. I have played some zergs who don't push out either (not very common though). Just do your usual thing, add in spines when needed, drones and get hive at normal time. Get ultra cavern/upgrades and don't stress if he's not attacking just a free win for you then when you get ultralisks. If he does a late muta tech switch you already have infestors (should have about 8 at least by the time hive finishes) and you will easily hold it off.
You should be able to get a lot of excess minerals which you can use to add more then 5-6 spines. You should have lots of lings though as well as spine support + infestors and you should have a pack of lings to do a counter attack as well.
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On July 16 2012 02:57 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 20:55 sCCrooked wrote:
I've been having an issue with hatch-first into ling/festor/ultra style lately against the lower leagues. That problem being that they plain old don't move out when they're supposed to with roach/bane or roach/hydra or roach/ling.
In your replays your opponents use proper timings and their roach/whatever army to pressure or try to kill you at the third or natural. My question is what should I do if they DON'T use a proper timing with the roach/whatever army and rather use it to take a third and possibly go for a really late (probably bad) muta switch timing (they do get out more mutas this way) or they just go for a timing very similar to the second roach army move-out I saw in your replays but with the army of the first timing added onto the timing of the second push.
Is a ton more spines the answer? I've tried 5-6 spines even and its just not enough once they have over 80 supply of army even with fungals. Should I just use the extra time they give me to drone up faster and push along the tech while making 10-12 spines at each vulnerability in my bases?
I realize what they're doing is probably considered "bad", but at lower leagues that is ALL you face. Pushes that look scarier and have more durability because of basically doing less and waiting for what pros would consider "bad" timings. Its tough to discern proper responses to these weird attacks. If they aren't pushing out at all that's fine. I have played some zergs who don't push out either (not very common though). Just do your usual thing, add in spines when needed, drones and get hive at normal time. Get ultra cavern/upgrades and don't stress if he's not attacking just a free win for you then when you get ultralisks. If he does a late muta tech switch you already have infestors (should have about 8 at least by the time hive finishes) and you will easily hold it off. You should be able to get a lot of excess minerals which you can use to add more then 5-6 spines. You should have lots of lings though as well as spine support + infestors and you should have a pack of lings to do a counter attack as well.
I think he's talking about the same timings I have trouble with. Roach/Hydra 2-3 base all-ins with typically 2-2 upgrades can hit right before you have hive tech as you are getting adrenal, 3/3, and ultras, killing you as the ultras begin to pop. The best way to deal with this seems to be 10+ spines and a ton of infestors, while also forcing you to delay hive tech a bit. If they wait until your ultras pop it's an easy win, though.
I still only have success with defending this when it's on a map with very narrow chokes at natural and third bases, like Entombed Valley.
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http://drop.sc/222601
Hey here's a game where I did this, and the guy beat me playing standard roach. I think I'm going to stop using this style because I think it's counterable.
So in this game, the guy played standard third before lair, roach based. he used roaches to deny my third for a long time, and had mass spines at third to prevent counterattacking (and make new roaches at home).
Then he took a quick fourth and rushed hive.
The game had some up and downs, I miscalculated how many lings he made at the start and lost my queen because of it, but I think the game was fairly even early game because of him overmaking lings.
He also does some infestor drops. i don't think they were very useful, but killing my ultra cavern made my ultras late, although I don't think it matters because he put mass spines at his fourth too.
I think him going drops and hydras wasn't really good on his part, so I imagine if he rushed hive he would have done even quicker.
I'm also curious if maybe just going straight into ultras instead of broodlords, as a counter to ling/infestor 2 base, would be a good idea, but this is the 2nd time I've lost to someone doing this (the last time I wasn't sure, I think I made enough mistakes that I wasn't sure if it was the answer). But basically, mass spines at third, rush hive, use a handful of roaches to delay third for a long time.
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How would you guys deal with mass roach doom drops? Assuming that I don't fall behind to run-bys or sacced roaches for no reason, I don't see how this can hold off 40+ 2-2 roaches dropped before ultras are out.
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On July 16 2012 08:25 Belial88 wrote:http://drop.sc/222601Hey here's a game where I did this, and the guy beat me playing standard roach. I think I'm going to stop using this style because I think it's counterable. So in this game, the guy played standard third before lair, roach based. he used roaches to deny my third for a long time, and had mass spines at third to prevent counterattacking (and make new roaches at home). Then he took a quick fourth and rushed hive. The game had some up and downs, I miscalculated how many lings he made at the start and lost my queen because of it, but I think the game was fairly even early game because of him overmaking lings. He also does some infestor drops. i don't think they were very useful, but killing my ultra cavern made my ultras late, although I don't think it matters because he put mass spines at his fourth too. I think him going drops and hydras wasn't really good on his part, so I imagine if he rushed hive he would have done even quicker. I'm also curious if maybe just going straight into ultras instead of broodlords, as a counter to ling/infestor 2 base, would be a good idea, but this is the 2nd time I've lost to someone doing this (the last time I wasn't sure, I think I made enough mistakes that I wasn't sure if it was the answer). But basically, mass spines at third, rush hive, use a handful of roaches to delay third for a long time.
I don't think the strategy is the problem this game. You got outmacrod pretty hard. Take the third much earlier and if your opponent is playing that defensively, you can afford to drone up and later make spines to defend any roach aggression. You also build too many lings which is why you have no minerals for Ultras. The drops he did were cute, but in those situations you can typically just attack them with your ultra/infestor as they wasted a lot of their infestor energy. Don't attack into 16 spines with roaches and infestor/BL supporting. You can easily take out other bases instead and if it turns into a base race you have mass ling which are very strong there.
It can be hard to approach games like that rationally after you just played them, but you need to be able to look at a game like that and recognize how poorly you played.
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On July 16 2012 08:25 Belial88 wrote:http://drop.sc/222601Hey here's a game where I did this, and the guy beat me playing standard roach. I think I'm going to stop using this style because I think it's counterable. So in this game, the guy played standard third before lair, roach based. he used roaches to deny my third for a long time, and had mass spines at third to prevent counterattacking (and make new roaches at home).
He didn't deny your 3rd with roaches - he hadn't made a single roach until his 3rd base was completely saturated. If you tried taking your 3rd, there would have been ling baneling fights for it, but I think that's what you have to do. If he takes a 3rd base and you don't, you have to at least fight over his with the units you have, to prevent him from saturating it so quickly.
I think you need to take the 3rd much much faster - if it's not possible, than maybe you are right, but I'm pretty sure it is very possible to hold the 3rd, or at the very least, trade 3rds.
If you really are forced to infestor turtle on 2 base, you can't be that late on your 2/2 upgrades or your infestors.
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Just want to thank both of you for looking at it for me, not going to lie just got off work and tired and didn't feel like watching it to pin point mistakes xD.
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EPT
