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err
54 Posts
I'm not sure what I did wrong doing this build. He was pretty all-iny with 2 base roach with upgrades (no infestors or hydra). I died before I could get my ultras out. Anyone have suggestions? \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Thanks for the reply, that helps a ton. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 27 2012 01:37 hivemind-swe wrote: I am only platinum and have some issues with this. There is a timing when he goes roach infestors and you have ling infestors(I have 2-3 more infestors than him) and are teching to ultras that i can't seem to get past. His infestors just nullifies my lings. Do you have any good tips on what i am doing wrong? Yes I do actually. Something you need to do is spread out your lings before engaging. If you do not spread out your lings it makes holding off the roach/infestor attack near impossible even with 5-6 spines. I would definitely recommend spreading your lings maneully then engaging that makes it so he has to use more then 1 fungel to catch a lot of lings. On June 27 2012 03:49 err wrote: mid-master replay http://drop.sc/208362 I'm not sure what I did wrong doing this build. He was pretty all-iny with 2 base roach with upgrades (no infestors or hydra). I died before I could get my ultras out. Anyone have suggestions? You did a good job doing counters that is good, keep doing that that's for sure. If you see your opponent not taking a third and just staying 2 base, you should make more spines. The fact he is on 2 base so long means you have to hold his attack and then you win. If you are on a situation where you don't think you can hold your third, go kill his. You kill his third and stay on even bases favors you as you are going to have ultralisks at some point soon and if you are both on 2 bases you both are going to be starving for resources, but you will be able to trade a lot more effeciently. So the counter attack to kill his third, good decision. This is where your first major mistake lies. You let all of his bunched up roaches go up the ramp and you didn't cast a single fungel until they were all up. Not only that but your first 2 fungels got a grand total of 5 roaches as you mis fungleed pretty badly. That is the whole reason you lost that game really was your bad handling of his main attack, you could have fungeled his whole army on the ramp and the spines + lings would have crushed that push really really badly. So work on that as you get fungels ont hat roach army on ramp, you would have held that so easily you would have laughed  | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Well you should get a fast third there is no reason not to. The only time I wouldn't go get a fast third is if my opponent has roach tech and is staying on 2 bases. If he is taking a third, I am going to take my third. There is no way for him to pressure my third as he would lose all his units unless I am caught droning. That's interesting, I've started to do that as I realize I take my third way too late when I've been doing this. Just take it when the opponent takes theirs, basically. Spreading creep pre-emptively with overlords I think is super important though, in case they decide to just not drone their third and mass roaches for the win, you need those spines up in time. But you are still making lair before third right? http://drop.sc/208864 Here's a game I won doing this style. Nothing in particular about it, but imo a really interesting game of this style - it turns into a really long game and ends in an epic base trade . I made a lot of mistakes I think, but basically, I screwed up by losing my queen as the start but whatever, I go 2 base infestor while he goes 2 base muta, I hold the mutas easily and trap all of his mutas with chain FG while taking my third asap when I see his spire, while he takes a quick third too behind his mutas. He transitions into mass roach, I go ling/infestor/spine into ultras. I engage his roach/hydra/infestor army when he comes toward me, outside of my mass spine, because I thought I could take it but it was a bad idea (you'll see a common theme in this game that I'll engage with just 1-3 ultras thinking I'll win but I lose the battle). Description + Show Spoiler + With lots of ling counterattacks because he insists on being aggressive, I keep him on 4 bases or less at all times, and I never really lose bases but I have trouble taking a fourth, mainly because I insist on losing my entire army over and over instead of just staying back, building up my deathball behind my safe mass spine wall, and then taking it. The game ends in a pretty epic basetrade when I basically kill his 4th for the 5th time and snipe a few other bases too, and I stupidly overcommit into his main. His buildings become revealed and I didnt see anything so I go for it, but when I finish off all his buildings in his nat and then my entire main army is dead, I realize he has an extractor I didn't finish off at that 4th, with about 15 hp. I unburrow a single ling I had left, that I had to block his 5th, and send all my mining drones (i had 1 mining base at the time) to attack it, and I win ^^ | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you got raped by 100 lings, that has to do with early game, not infestors vs mutas, since a muta player can make 100 lings too. You should have banelings, you need a baneling nest in early game zvz. | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I just got raped by suddenly 100 lings running everywhere and anywhere, simply wasnt prepared. That's pretty all-innish of the opponent, you should have realized he still hasn't taken a third when he could have safely done so. In ZvZ you take your third, and you don't drone up your third until after making lots of units or figuring out exactly what's going on because of the way larva inject is, you can instantly saturate your third when your opponent first takes his, and you will need lots of units to defend things like this. You should have taken your third with 4 banelings, when you saw him suddenly stream out 100 lings from his base, you should have been morphing more banes and either made a bunch of roaches, or lots of lings yourself if you chose to skip roaches because you realizae he's going ling/infestor. It just sounds like an early game mistake on your part. | ||
chlindell
Sweden68 Posts
I played a game where my opponent went 3-base roach infestor that left me quite confused on how I should attack/engage using this build. We had several more or less maxed engagements throughout the game but I wasn't even close to being cost efficient so I think I'm doing something wrong here. He would basically fungal my lings and then throw up a ton of infested terran eggs in front of his roaches, blocking my ultras so the roaches could shoot from behind. I made quite a few errors early/mid game but I'm pretty sure what I should have done differently and we ended up fairly even anyway I think. Still, this part was pretty sloppy by me but since he didn't commit to any big attack early I think I got away with it this time. Please correct me if I'm wrong. What I'm curious about is that once I got my ultras out I was ahead, right? More drones, 1 more base, better tech (although the melee upgrade was delayed since I didn't notice +2 failing to start due to low resoureces), slightly smaller army but his had mostly roaches. What am I doing wrong to mess up all these engagements? Here is the replay, feel free to skip the first 15 minutes to get to the part I'm confused about: http://drop.sc/213985 He stuck to roach infestor and we kept trading several times. At 27 minutes my resources lost is almost 60% higher, 27k to his 17k. Those are ZvP numbers! I had my 4th earlier which kept me in the game despite the trades being heavily in his favor for the most part. I thought he would transition into broods so I wanted to try and kill him before that. From the replays I've seen you should attack pretty much right away when you have your ultras out, right? Here are my descriptions of the main engagements: 17:30 - basically max ultra/ling/inf vs max roach/inf. I attack into him and he has 3 spines to support. Spines act as retard magnets for my lings and I lose 2500 more army value than him. At this point I got quite confused as I thought I would smash what he had there regardless. 20:00 - Here he intercepts my infestors while I'm moving my army and looking at my base so I have to fight. Both about maxed and I come out at -4000 army value. This was obviously a bad engagement by me as it wasn't on purpose..not much to say I guess, well done by him. 21:00 - 160vs200. Here we actually come out even. I guess it's because he doesn't have much infestor energy left to make IT walls with. 23:30 - 140vs200. Here he attacks into the spines at my 4th and I attack him from behind. This is the only engagement where it looks like in the OP replays with ultras going nom nom nom on the roaches, +2000 despite his supply advantage. 27:00 - Game deciding maxed battle. He spams IT's again, making my ultras look like SC1 dragoons. I lose this one big time, -5000 resources including my 5th base. He managed to sneak up a 5th of his own that I failed to scout and at this point I think the game is over. From here it goes on for a while longer with me trying some base trading and brood lords but it was too late anyway. As I understood it I'm supposed to switch to broods earlier but I'm trying to get a feel for this style and stuck to ultras to try and break his roach/infestor. I actually made more ultras by mistake when finally deciding o go broods but nevermind, I had prob lost already anyway. So..how do I fight him without him attacking into a bunch of my spines and what are the main reason I'm losing these battles so decisively? Poor infestor usage, clumped up lings, poorly chosen locations, not doing proper surrounds etc..? Guess I could have tried backing out but do I want to trade all my lings for infestor energy? Is my army comp OK or should I have had more ultras or something? Didn't really make banes because I was scared of fungals. Don't be shy pointing out errors. Thanks in advance! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
just a quick question, whenever you have time for it! How much should I commit to lings run bys? I feel it's always a big temptation (from mid game) to send like thirty zerglings in his main when he is out of position, but the outcome of such move is often somewhat uncertain. So would you have rules of thumb as to when doing it and when not doing it? Thanks! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 04 2012 16:53 Macpo wrote: Hey Blade, just a quick question, whenever you have time for it! How much should I commit to lings run bys? I feel it's always a big temptation (from mid game) to send like thirty zerglings in his main when he is out of position, but the outcome of such move is often somewhat uncertain. So would you have rules of thumb as to when doing it and when not doing it? Thanks! I would always commit to ling counter attacks. That's the strength of this style. What I would recommend is making sure you have a few lings go in front and not them all bunched up when doing a run by in the main. The reason being if he does leave banelings you don't want to lose them all to 2 when you could take them out with 4 lings instead ^^. | ||
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chlindell
Sweden68 Posts
On July 04 2012 16:17 blade55555 wrote: Hey just thought I would let you know I did read your post and will reply to it just not today. I will tomorrow just to tired right now but again just letting you know I will look at it. Thanks, no rush! | ||
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MrAgony
United States15 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
- If the opponent is going 2 base infestor/muta (ie no roach warren, 4 gas on 2 base), take a third - If the opponent takes a third, you take your third That's when you take a third. If the opponent is going 2 base lair roach, don't take a third (i know, a very bad build that you will never see at higher level play, but sometimes you might have someone planning to go mutas, and sees what you are up to and sees you take a third, and he'll reactively go roach). You are always safe to take your third once you plant your infestation pit, since your infestors will pop in time to stop mass roach. It's just a matter of planting enough spines in tim e and not droning up too hard. I recommend that you start spreading overlords in front of your third/nat so when lair is done, you can instantly drop creep down and plant down a spine wall. With infestor/spine, you can stop any mass roach attack. Basically, you are safe to take a third when the opponent takes a third. Taking a third against 2 base lair infestor/muta, is simply you sort of understanding the game very well, and taking the third because you understand what's going on (good scouting = you can be greedier), but if you aren't sure what's going on, just wait until the opponent takes their third. Really, the 'blind' way to play this build is just get infestors on 2 base, then take the third and mass spines against roach players. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Ok here are your mistakes and why you lost: Defensive banelings, you don't need to make 4 that is more then you need. 2 is fine, but don't make 4 unless you know he is doing some sort of ling pressure. Your timings were a bit off, both evo's should be placed at 6:30-6:45 (there was no pressure this game so these shouldn't have been so late). You also have almost 1k minerals which is way to much. You should never be that high. You should always be making drones or make a round of lings and get a third, but yeah should never get so many minerals so early in the game. Just to point out again you still have a ton of minerals, if you aren't making drones you should be making lings/spines. Should be trying to keep that money as low as possible, a macro hatch also. Need to start 2-2 as soon as lair finishes you waited quiet awhile. You don't make enough lings. You were going hive at 12 minutes but with only 8 lings and 68 drones, it's nice to have all those drones but you could have also had a lot more lings. Lings are very important for counter attacking as if he had pushed with a roach push at 9 minutes you might have died as 3 spines and 8 lings, while waiting for reinforcments might have killed you or worse. You should always be throwing in lings as lings aren't like roaches where you can make them last minute and be fine. Since lings are so weak (especially compared to roaches) you need masses of them and want to always be making them. Before your first should you should have waited for the 5 other ultralisks. You had them in production, should have chilled and waited for them and done a 200/200 push yourself. When you see the other zerg throwing down a ton of IT's, run away and wait for them to die. Unless you have such a superior army just wait as you want to engage just the roaches, mass IT support will kill your army so just retreat and wait until they die off before engaging again (then his infestors will have little energy and you will be able to kill him). Banelings were a waste of gas, no need to make them unless they are going roach/hydra. Then you can start going ling/bane/ultra/infestor. At 20 minutes, you had his army. You would have crushed him had you been paying attention. 2-3 fungels would have gotten all his roaches and you had a lot of roach/ling support. The fact that you lost a lot of infestors and 1/4'th your army really hurt you. Then again you also pushed a little premature, while you would have won that battle anyway had you been paying attention you would have beat that, but still should have waited for all your ultra/lings to be out before attacking. I don't agree with your transition into bl's either, that was kind of a waste of money and gave him a huge timing. When he's only on roaches you should just keep going ultra/ling/infestor. Also try doing ling counter attacks to kill drones, possibly snipe an expansion. Always good to do especially when you have a ton of lings .In general your army control is pretty bad. You don't use enough fungals and you have a ton of infestors, had you been using fungals you would have been killing his army's a lot easier and probably won this game. In general I would work on army control a lot and using fungals. Lots of battles of not using fungals just hurts to much as why have 11 infestors if you aren't going to fungal a lot (or throw IT's down at least) xD. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
1. http://drop.sc/215676 Guy goes 2 base muta. I take a third, knowing he's going mutas (or infestor, either way, take third right?). He takes a third, and tech switches to roaches. I recognize he's massing roaches, i even see them with my overseer in his base, and that he isn't droning up his third at all. I try to mass spines in the middle of Shakuras Plateau between third/nat, to get a wall going, but the mutas just kill the morphing spines, and when my infestors pop, I'm greeted by mass roach (which would have been okay, but there were mutas killing the spines) 2. http://drop.sc/215679 Guy goes 2 base lair, probably going toward mutas. I recognize this, and take a third. The opponent realizes what I'm doing, sees my third, and takes his own third, and then just masses roaches, basically going 2 base mass roach with a third taken. Should I just not ever take a third until infestors pop, due to mass roach transitions? I mean, I recall fighting 2 base infestor/ling as a third before lair, roach player, and yea, I would deny the third of the opponent for a long time with roaches, and I recall he would only be able to take it with infestors. I see you say if he tries to kill your third, you go kill his, which I could always do, but I never mass spines in my nat, and instead lose them all out trying to defend the third. Maybe the problem is I should mass spines in my natural instead, and take a third, and if he tries to kill it with roaches I just go kill his third and all is good? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
If he goes to kill your third and you can't defend it or dont' think you can yes go kill his. Make sure you have at least 3 spines at natural (which you should already have them done) and if he tries to attack there, your lings should be on the way back (after killing his third) and you should be able to flank his roaches and sandwitch them and then eat them. | ||
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SwitchAUS
Australia106 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you suspect a roach timing, you need to get more infestors. But you still need hive asap, so I'd say just go more like 10-12 rather than 6-8, it will just mean a lower ultra count. it's a balance, but you need ultras before he really gets the benefits of his fourth. So if you see his taking his fourth, you probably want to cut the infestor production, similarly if he's getting hive or infestors himself, and if he's making a ton of roaches, not getting infestors, no fourth, etc, you will want more spines and infestors and later/less ultras for the time being. You want the ultras to kill his fourth off, and to secure your own fourth. The only way he can take his fourth is with mass spines himself with lots of infestors, or his own ultras, in which case you'll either have the higher ultra count, or you can take your fifth and start going broodlords (or more ultras, depending on how his infestor count is and how late the game is). | ||
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