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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 22 2012 04:39 andeh wrote: Can you talk about what triggers you think about when to take a 3rd? I can't figure out a good situation timing. I take it when my opponent takes his (if he does it before lair I will do the same). If he doesn't I don't. The reason I don't is because a 2 base roach timing would kill it and potentially kill me anyway. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On June 22 2012 04:42 blade55555 wrote: I take it when my opponent takes his (if he does it before lair I will do the same). If he doesn't I don't. The reason I don't is because a 2 base roach timing would kill it and potentially kill me anyway. I think after you have a decent count of infestors you should be able to take the 3rd, right? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 22 2012 04:43 oOOoOphidian wrote: I think after you have a decent count of infestors you should be able to take the 3rd, right? You can take it before, obviously if you get lair and get infestors out then you can take your third to. If you don't take it early, you can take it fine right as soon as lair finishes and you get infestors. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 22 2012 06:27 oOOoOphidian wrote: Oh, also if you scout double gas at the natural and spines I feel it's pretty safe to take a third, provided you account for a handful of lings they may use to deny it. Is that pretty much correct? Seems like 20~ lings is the typical number a muta or infestor player will send at your third before lair gets up. Yeah if you see that you want to get your third down before mutalisks and you should be able to do it quiet safely as well  . | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
I have a couple of questions that I couldn't find answers to in the thread: - Regarding maps, how do you deal with those maps where infestors cannot go from nat to third without going in the open space beyond the spines. I am thinking here mainly of shakuras. My problem is that i can't have my infestors covering both 2nd and 3rd, supposing that my spines are up the ramp. So what do you do? do you make 2 squadrons of infestors to cover both places? do you make spines on low ground (but then they are very spread out, aren't they?) do you stay on two bases? or do you take another third, like the one close to xel naga towers? - also, I can't figure out a rule of thumb for ling production. Cause you don't try to make as many zerglings as possible, from what I saw in your commentated replay, do you? so you make "some amount" considered standard depending the stage of the game, and then spam as many as possible when you face some timing push? Thanks again ! | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 22 2012 16:34 Macpo wrote: Hi again! I have a couple of questions that I couldn't find answers to in the thread: - Regarding maps, how do you deal with those maps where infestors cannot go from nat to third without going in the open space beyond the spines. I am thinking here mainly of shakuras. My problem is that i can't have my infestors covering both 2nd and 3rd, supposing that my spines are up the ramp. So what do you do? do you make 2 squadrons of infestors to cover both places? do you make spines on low ground (but then they are very spread out, aren't they?) do you stay on two bases? or do you take another third, like the one close to xel naga towers? - also, I can't figure out a rule of thumb for ling production. Cause you don't try to make as many zerglings as possible, from what I saw in your commentated replay, do you? so you make "some amount" considered standard depending the stage of the game, and then spam as many as possible when you face some timing push? Thanks again ! I haven't played a zvz on shakuras in forever because I have had that map veto'd for a long time xD. But what I would do is just leave 2-3 infestors over at the third and the rest in your natural or have overlords spread creep so that spines cover both third and natural and force an engagement there. For lings you do need quiet a bit. You want to be doing counter attacks in multiple spots when he moves out. If I am not making drones I am making lings or ultras (or infestors). You will have quiet a few lings but you definitely don't want to max out on them or anything obviously but should have a lot. Saving money for ultras is something I would only do once the ultra cavern starts, reason being is you do want all the lings and units in general you can get. Most zergs that are doing a roach based strategy should be doing a push before ultras are being started and you will die if you are saving a ton of money for it to only have quiet a few lings but only 5 infestors.. | ||
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kiklion
99 Posts
The downside to taking the third is that you are 300 minerals behind the other player if they were to be aggressive. With almost 2 saturated bases you can make up that difference in about 15 seconds. Since their army should be (travel time) behind yours, if you can make up that resource difference in that time frame, then your armies should meet at equal strength. ~Edit Trying to find a way to delete the post. Thought it was general zerg topic and not the ling/ultra one. Lings are much more mobile and can take advantage of a 300 mineral difference much faster than roaches. The above is assuming they are going roaches. | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:02 General_Winter wrote: Maybe its different at masters, but at gold on the Korean server most zergs open either 6 or 10 pool and the very macroest zergs open 14 gas 14 pool. So using the suggested opening (with hatch first) only ever leads to all ins really early in the game (most of which I die to). How would you open if you had to start with 14 gas 14 pool? And when would you suggest taking the natural from a 14/14 to lead into this build? Thanks very much. You can hold anything other than 10p baneling all-in with a hatch first, so I recommend practicing it even if your micro and crisis management aren't good enough yet. You can go 14/14 and play pretty much the same for this build, though, so it's mostly down to what you're comfortable with. I would recommend the standard ~20 hatch off a 14/14 and only make 2-4 lings. | ||
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Heeroo
Germany7 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:02 General_Winter wrote: Maybe its different at masters, but at gold on the Korean server most zergs open either 6 or 10 pool and the very macroest zergs open 14 gas 14 pool. So using the suggested opening (with hatch first) only ever leads to all ins really early in the game (most of which I die to). How would you open if you had to start with 14 gas 14 pool? And when would you suggest taking the natural from a 14/14 to lead into this build? Thanks very much. I am mid masters eu/us u can try out 15p/15h/16g almost as economic and safe vs everything with proper micro gl sir! | ||
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VisiO789
United States7 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
Since you're getting double upgrades and infestors (both get better with time) you're extremely cost effective. If I'm on 2 base saturation and my opponent has not taken a third I just throw down spines until he does or he tries to attack me and I hold. When I take my third I transfer half my spines (drop creep with your ovies, don't wait for the hatch) and you're great. If your opponent has a late third I feel it's always worth it to sack some lings to deny it. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 24 2012 11:32 Clarity_nl wrote: I see no reason to ever take your third before your opponent with the exception of mutas, or if he's playing the same style as you. Since you're getting double upgrades and infestors (both get better with time) you're extremely cost effective. If I'm on 2 base saturation and my opponent has not taken a third I just throw down spines until he does or he tries to attack me and I hold. When I take my third I transfer half my spines (drop creep with your ovies, don't wait for the hatch) and you're great. If your opponent has a late third I feel it's always worth it to sack some lings to deny it. Well if your opponent goes same style as you, gets a third before you and well you'll get behind in every way. Also the faster you get it up the more time you have to get spines and make sure a roach timing wont' kill you. That would be why to take it before him ^_^ | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It's like going gold first on metalopolis when you know the opponent is going hatch first on close air - since you are basically doing mirror builds, he can't punish you for it. Also, a lot of people nydus against this, so I've been patrolling 2-3 lings on each side of my main once I take my third against roach play, since nydus can be so deadly and well I'm a scrub and will likely not spot the nydus (besides, better to be active with your army than have to pull it all back if they do nydus, so still better to patrol 2-3 lings imo). I've been really, really thinking a lot about this style of play, and how to respond to opponents. So if they go 2 base muta, you should just take your third immediately right? Since you will have roughly similar lair timings, and just use quick creep from an overlord to set a spore or two down at the third, you should be good? And if they switch into roach/infestor, you just mass spines I guess. I'm really thinking that a strong 'counter' to this play is just play standard fast third ~45 supply with roaches, and then when you see it's this ling/infestor style with double evo, just dont make many more roaches (still get roach speed), get infestors, maybe double evo too, and get hive quicker than the opponent, while using your roach/ling/infestor army to secure your fourth, and be defensive until ultras pop. You won't need spines, just keep your army at home right. Maybe if I just practice with someone on this... | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
here is a replay doing the anti-build I described + Show Spoiler + I'm really thinking that a strong 'counter' to this play is just play standard fast third ~45 supply with roaches, and then when you see it's this ling/infestor style with double evo, just dont make many more roaches (still get roach speed), get infestors, maybe double evo too, and get hive quicker than the opponent, while using your roach/ling/infestor army to secure your fourth, and be defensive until ultras pop. You won't need spines, just keep your army at home right. Maybe if I just practice with someone on this... The idea is the same I brought up earlier if you face someone doing the same thing as you - where you see they are going 2 base ling/infestor too, you just 'counter' their spines with taking your third and proceeding with mass upgraded lings as normal. In the end I lost, and I could have beat him because of a huge lead I got mid-game but I teched too quickly to broodlords (and lost to that mass roach play when I dont have enough infestors with my broods), but focus on the moment when my infestors pop and I'm taking my third. He didn't even make a roach warren, I'm not sure why, maybe he saw the double evo and knew what was up right away, but focus on that moment. He's getting infestors just a little later than me, and we're basically in the same spot except his third is much, much earlier, and he can go take his fourth with ling/infestor vs my ling/infestor. The problem with this 2 base ling/infestor play is you can't deny thirds, and you can't deny fourths much either. The guy also gets a nydus in extreme lategame, but I keep 4 lings patrolling on both sides of my main to counter it - it's better to have 4 lings patrolling then having to bring back your entire army due to it, and in all 3 cases I spot the nydus just fine, but the lings really help out. He transitions into mass roach after ling/infestor, which is really weird and dumb imo, and I completely crush him with ultra/ling/infestor and kill his 4th and 5th, but I lose the game because I go to broodlords, instead of just getting more ultra/ling/infestor against someone who clearly is way too behind to get broodlords himself. But he should have won in the first place... only reason he almost lost was because of the same reason he won, he went mass roach, but that time I lost most of my ultra/infestor. I still haven't really seen someone counter this 2 base ling/infestor style properly, but I think I'm going to go back to fast third zvz, and if I see someone going ling/infestor, just do the same thing and beat it. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
I imagine there is a hard counter to this build if you know its coming before the game even started, but I haven't really faced any hard counters yet on ladder  . Nydus is a somewhat popular response I have seen lately as well which is something to look out for when doing this build. | ||
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hivemind-swe
Sweden12 Posts
Do you have any good tips on what i am doing wrong? | ||
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