EPTThat has been one of the things that have made me reluctant to try this style because it seems like it would turn into a pvp in that once u have both taking your thirds there is literally no attacking until both of you have your super armys, which would seem like a pretty boring way to play.
[G] Zerg vs Zerg ling/infestor into ultralisks - Page 4
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
That has been one of the things that have made me reluctant to try this style because it seems like it would turn into a pvp in that once u have both taking your thirds there is literally no attacking until both of you have your super armys, which would seem like a pretty boring way to play. | ||
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Apevia
United States49 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On June 18 2012 07:50 Moosegills wrote: I have another question for you blade. Can you describe you mindset/strategy when your opponent is also going this ling infestor style. That has been one of the things that have made me reluctant to try this style because it seems like it would turn into a pvp in that once u have both taking your thirds there is literally no attacking until both of you have your super armys, which would seem like a pretty boring way to play. Why not mix in Infestor drops? I don't see anything that specifically limits you to turtling. You can also take more bases to force the issue. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Don't do damage, you don't get ultras, don't get ultras, no 4th and opponents gets 5 bases and can overwhelm you or rush pure broodlord. That said... whatever. Many, many pros do it. There's just obvious costs and benefits associated with it, enough I'd say that it can cost you the game at high level play, but it's also pretty strong so most likely it will never be so extreme that you do zero damage and autolose because the game is that mechanical. | ||
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Maxamix
Canada165 Posts
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
now that i think about it perhaps that does work to defend, getting all your lings under the overlords and uprooting some spines to help defend where they want to fight and then getting some good fungles. | ||
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heyitskez
Australia58 Posts
Ling infestor is a good build, you just need to make sure you have made a but tonne of spines once you have secured your 3rd/4th on some maps (some maps its to hard to secure 4th behind spines) then get ultras out asap. If you want to put pressure back on your opponent once uve secured ur 3-4 bases going infestor drops is really good to delay him until ultras are out. Things to be careful of are big 2 base +2 ranged timings or big 3-4 +2 roach hydra timings as hydras are good against ultras strangely enough. The ling infestor build isnt really one where you can say herp derp im gonna do ling infestor now. So much of it relies on what happened early game, how you move your army and counter attack, and just how smart/mechanically good you are. gl hf! | ||
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
On June 18 2012 13:50 heyitskez wrote: Id liek to see a player have enough mass roach and good ups (which u need against ling infestor/ultra) and drop and ovie speed and infestors before the ling infestor player has either just killed u and won, or gotten a 4th or gotten hive tech out. In theory going for roach drops is good, but in reality you dont really get all that many roaches, assuming the ling infestor player is competent and didnt let you get an extremely early 3rd which you shouldnt because 1/1 lings > 1/1 roaches in smaller numbers and you need +2 on the rochaes for them to become cost efficient. Ling infestor is a good build, you just need to make sure you have made a but tonne of spines once you have secured your 3rd/4th on some maps (some maps its to hard to secure 4th behind spines) then get ultras out asap. If you want to put pressure back on your opponent once uve secured ur 3-4 bases going infestor drops is really good to delay him until ultras are out. Things to be careful of are big 2 base +2 ranged timings or big 3-4 +2 roach hydra timings as hydras are good against ultras strangely enough. The ling infestor build isnt really one where you can say herp derp im gonna do ling infestor now. So much of it relies on what happened early game, how you move your army and counter attack, and just how smart/mechanically good you are. gl hf! if not a maxxed roach timeing because the other player will have ultras out by then (apparently) why not just a drop timing at any point before that. i see your point about the gas distributions but i feel like you have neglected the time it takes to tech up to ultras. say the ultra players puts all their tech at the natural so it cant get sniped. the roach drop will still be able to snipe the main hatch and then its just a matter of surviving the ultras they managed to get out before you just overwhelm them | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On June 18 2012 13:19 Belial88 wrote: ^ It delays your hive, which means your fourth is delayed. It's semi-all-in because you are gas starved and NEED ultras ASAP to survive mass roach/infestor attacks against your 3 base when ling/infestor isn't enough, and you NEED ultras to deny the roach players 5th and hopefully kill their 4th. Don't do damage, you don't get ultras, don't get ultras, no 4th and opponents gets 5 bases and can overwhelm you or rush pure broodlord. That said... whatever. Many, many pros do it. There's just obvious costs and benefits associated with it, enough I'd say that it can cost you the game at high level play, but it's also pretty strong so most likely it will never be so extreme that you do zero damage and autolose because the game is that mechanical. You missed the context. I was referring to a mirror for this build. You'll have later Ultras by a bit, but if you are able to harass at all it delays your opponent's ultras a lot as well. I feel you should be able to play defensively and not just die when they get ultras out themselves even if they are faster than yours. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
But there's a reason why not everyone does it, because there's a very real cost. I don't know what to tell you. Some people would say "why would i get infestor drops when I can get wayyy quicker hive and ultras and just win the ultra vs ultra race", others would say "i always do at least enough damage to justify the drops so why would you not always get it"... i think a maxxed roach and maybe even couple infestors drop before ultras into the main is a direct counter to this since you are relying on spines to defend properly. drops lets you go anywhere you want and avoid fighting at spines. i would like to know of a way to stop respond to this shouldyou suspect a roach player is going for drops. it will be hard for a roach player to go mass drop unscouted since you will have lots of vision from overlords they arnt able to kill off effectivly so maybe the surface area from getting all your lings under the drop would be enough but im not too sure. No. Why in the world would you think that. Please don't theorycraft like this. Please, give a replay example of someone doing this. Otherwise, it sounds like you are just making stuff up. As I said in the Ultras in ZvZ? discussion thread I posted discussing this build, the closest I see as a counter to this, when doing standard play of fast third before lair roach based play, is to just not make roaches and make infestors, like you would against 2 base lair play assuming mutas instead of infestors, but then once realizing it's infestors and not mutas, you just not make many more roaches, take your fourth with your roach/infestor/ling, and go for quick hive and double ups on your lings as you go roach/ling/infestor and then ultras but used your few roaches to secure your fourth while the opponent is just getting his third, and getting hive and ultras basically at the same time. Did you not read the thread at all - maxed roach won't work - moar spines, infestors, and not way you are going to break a 3 base turtle. Making more roaches is the most all-innish thing you can do and won't work against proper play. Roach/infestor will get trashed by ultra/ling/infestor. That makes no sense. Please. Infestor drops is a gamble. They are extremely costly, and how exactly are you going to do roach/infestor pressure if you just have no infestors? So you are basically just going pure roach against mass spines and infestors... with some drops, that may or may not work. Why don't you just say "Nydus is the counter to everything in ZvZ (as long as they dont spot it and respond poorly). | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
On June 18 2012 16:22 Belial88 wrote: ^ Ah I see, but my response is still the same - if you do zero damage, you lose to someone doing a mirror build because they get a quicker fourth and have ultras out quicker (and eventually, he'll have his broodlords out quicker as you transition from ultras to broodlords). As I said, there's a trade off though, and it's unlikely you just do zero damage and it'll be that stark. Infestor drops can be really fucking strong, so there's also just as much chance that you just fucking win the game then and there. But there's a reason why not everyone does it, because there's a very real cost. I don't know what to tell you. Some people would say "why would i get infestor drops when I can get wayyy quicker hive and ultras and just win the ultra vs ultra race", others would say "i always do at least enough damage to justify the drops so why would you not always get it"... No. Why in the world would you think that. Please don't theorycraft like this. Please, give a replay example of someone doing this. Otherwise, it sounds like you are just making stuff up. As I said in the Ultras in ZvZ? discussion thread I posted discussing this build, the closest I see as a counter to this, when doing standard play of fast third before lair roach based play, is to just not make roaches and make infestors, like you would against 2 base lair play assuming mutas instead of infestors, but then once realizing it's infestors and not mutas, you just not make many more roaches, take your fourth with your roach/infestor/ling, and go for quick hive and double ups on your lings as you go roach/ling/infestor and then ultras but used your few roaches to secure your fourth while the opponent is just getting his third, and getting hive and ultras basically at the same time. Did you not read the thread at all - maxed roach won't work - moar spines, infestors, and not way you are going to break a 3 base turtle. Making more roaches is the most all-innish thing you can do and won't work against proper play. Roach/infestor will get trashed by ultra/ling/infestor. That makes no sense. Please. Infestor drops is a gamble. They are extremely costly, and how exactly are you going to do roach/infestor pressure if you just have no infestors? So you are basically just going pure roach against mass spines and infestors... with some drops, that may or may not work. Why don't you just say "Nydus is the counter to everything in ZvZ (as long as they dont spot it and respond poorly). I'm saying you get drops so you don't have to fight at the spines... And I didn't say anything about the timings of the 3rd before lair or anything. Edit: to clarify I ment a mass drop into main do some sniping and retreat if possible not just "some" drops. | ||
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Hijungle
Australia67 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
+2 ranged attack makes roaches 2 shot lings unless they have +3 carapace. That simple fact alone wins me virtually all my games I play vs this style. As soon as I identify my opponent is going ling/infestor (easy to indentify because his lings will get 1/1 around the time my +1 range finishes) I simply get +2 weapons going, keep my 3 bases safe, and as soon as the upgrade finishes, I go for a massive trade at his 3rd. This timing is incredibly hard to hold off as your lings are getting slaughtered and you likely just started infestor production, so you will have a very limited amount of fungals to help out vs the roaches. If you are going this style, make sure you can deal with the +2 roach attack timing. If you are going against this style, throw down a 2nd evo as soon as you see he has 1/1, and don't sac your roaches until 2/1 finishes. If you miss this timing, you just threw the game. | ||
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Mauzel
United States421 Posts
Vs mutalisks you need more then 4 infestors, I said this I believe in the guide that against mutalisks you need to make a lot more then 4 before going hive. You will make at minimum 4 and then you can go hive but you still add more to your army, it's not like you just make 4 and that's it. Oh I thought you meant you only have enough gas for 4 initial infestors when your upgrade is ready. The harass with the mutas is not mandatory. Their main goal is to clear overlords to gain complete map control, allowing you to take a quick 4th while denying their 4th. Also going mutalisks, good luck getting a fast 4'th and then a 5'th base. If the zerg going ling/infestor is playing it right he will deny your third until mutalisks pop, do you really think you can go fast 4'th, let alone a 5'th base? You would die to a straight up ling/infestor attack. How are you going to deny my 3rd if you are getting 2 evos at 6:45 and 2 upgrades? that's a ridiculous amount of gas and minerals devoted to something that's going to take effect in 2 minutes. No matter what I'll have more drones and/or more lings than you. Furthermore, if you're taking your 3rd there's absolutely no way you can deny mine. How are you going to deny my 4th or 5th if your only units that can attack air will be infested terrans? Split mutalisks do great against infestors without spore crawlers. Also, if you're building more infestors you're going to be delaying your ultralisks, which makes my 4th and 5th much safer. Your best bet might actually be to stick to just those 4 initial infestors while rushing hive. Ultralisks would be your greatest asset versus mutalisk play. You can see double evo but lots of players go 1/1 carapace/range and go roaches and not the ling/infestor style (I play a lot of zergs who do this). They get their roach warren after they start their third and rely on ling/bane to hold it normally as well. So by the time you scout he's going ling/infestor (which you would need to do with an overseer) you wont' be able to reactively go spire. I personally see 1/1 carapace/range very rarely, mostly because carapace is only okay on roaches. Regardless, I consider 1/1 melee/range a pretty decent response. upgraded lings do alright against roaches, even similarly upgraded roaches (at least before 2/2 roaches). Furthermore, if the zerg is going ling/baneling to take the 3rd and then transitioning to double upgrade roach, I think I can always get muta ready in time. They will always be at least 6 roaches short compared to someone just going +1 because they'll have spent 150 gas on carapace, and I rarely have trouble with people who do +1 range roach timings. For your reactive spine crawlers, a lot of the times roach/ling if they just go straight for your base will get there before spine crawlers finish and then you will die. Also with this build you need spine crawlers up anyway even if he doesn't do this because going pure ling/infestor and no spine support will die to roach/infestor timings, roach timings in general. Any roach/ling that goes straight to your base super early is limited by the roach speed. You should be able to determine whether they are going roach/ling all-in by their drone count at their natural, and then build spine crawlers/lings/queens/banelings when you see that they are undersaturated. Of course, I completely agree with getting spines if you're expecting a roach/infestor timing, but hopefully these are happening after 6 minutes. Also with your no baneling nest, again heaviliy disagree. The best way to hold roach/speedbane/ling all in? spines + your own banelings. Much better then relying on some queens and a few spines to hold 15+ speed banes rolling in. Think those will all die fast to those? No way not if they do a pre-infestor timing (which one of the replays has). I did mention that I almost always get baneling nest right after I start lair, and sometimes early if I smell something fishy but this is pretty rare. I think this timing is guaranteed to have a baneling nest ready in time for any speedbaneling timing, considering that they need lair to get speed banelings... Also you can be more greedy, instead of having to make a ton of lings blindly at times, you can have 2 banes and have both bases saturated before starting mass ling production (unless you see him all inning). Its 100/50, 100 gas if you count the 2 banes you should make. Not going to be a big deal whatsoever. You will notice most zergs (pro ones) also like the one spine crawler at a certain time even when they are doing standard roaches and what not. But I can be equally as greedy except I won't have spent 50/50 on banes and 150/50 on a baneling nest, not to mention I will have complete map control unless you make lings. My point was the blind baneling nest is a crutch. With very good overlord scouting and ling scouting (especially with those first few) you can reliably determine the intentions of your opponents. This is especially true on maps where you can safely scout one or more mineral lines with an overlord. I very frequently see opponents take defensive postures by building a blind spine and blind banelings, and then with this inherent advantage I can pretty much always take my 3rd first (and then build my baneling nest and spine crawlers). If there's an all-in where you ABSOLUTELY need that blind baneling nest at 5:00 because it's impossible to scout, then I might concede the blind baneling nest. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 19 2012 00:56 Mauzel wrote: Oh I thought you meant you only have enough gas for 4 initial infestors when your upgrade is ready. The harass with the mutas is not mandatory. Their main goal is to clear overlords to gain complete map control, allowing you to take a quick 4th while denying their 4th. How are you going to deny my 3rd if you are getting 2 evos at 6:45 and 2 upgrades? that's a ridiculous amount of gas and minerals devoted to something that's going to take effect in 2 minutes. No matter what I'll have more drones and/or more lings than you. Furthermore, if you're taking your 3rd there's absolutely no way you can deny mine. How are you going to deny my 4th or 5th if your only units that can attack air will be infested terrans? Split mutalisks do great against infestors without spore crawlers. Also, if you're building more infestors you're going to be delaying your ultralisks, which makes my 4th and 5th much safer. Your best bet might actually be to stick to just those 4 initial infestors while rushing hive. Ultralisks would be your greatest asset versus mutalisk play. I personally see 1/1 carapace/range very rarely, mostly because carapace is only okay on roaches. Regardless, I consider 1/1 melee/range a pretty decent response. upgraded lings do alright against roaches, even similarly upgraded roaches (at least before 2/2 roaches). Furthermore, if the zerg is going ling/baneling to take the 3rd and then transitioning to double upgrade roach, I think I can always get muta ready in time. They will always be at least 6 roaches short compared to someone just going +1 because they'll have spent 150 gas on carapace, and I rarely have trouble with people who do +1 range roach timings. Any roach/ling that goes straight to your base super early is limited by the roach speed. You should be able to determine whether they are going roach/ling all-in by their drone count at their natural, and then build spine crawlers/lings/queens/banelings when you see that they are undersaturated. Of course, I completely agree with getting spines if you're expecting a roach/infestor timing, but hopefully these are happening after 6 minutes. I did mention that I almost always get baneling nest right after I start lair, and sometimes early if I smell something fishy but this is pretty rare. I think this timing is guaranteed to have a baneling nest ready in time for any speedbaneling timing, considering that they need lair to get speed banelings... But I can be equally as greedy except I won't have spent 50/50 on banes and 150/50 on a baneling nest, not to mention I will have complete map control unless you make lings. My point was the blind baneling nest is a crutch. With very good overlord scouting and ling scouting (especially with those first few) you can reliably determine the intentions of your opponents. This is especially true on maps where you can safely scout one or more mineral lines with an overlord. I very frequently see opponents take defensive postures by building a blind spine and blind banelings, and then with this inherent advantage I can pretty much always take my 3rd first (and then build my baneling nest and spine crawlers). If there's an all-in where you ABSOLUTELY need that blind baneling nest at 5:00 because it's impossible to scout, then I might concede the blind baneling nest. You will be very surprised how many lings you can get even when starting 1/1. You don't have 4 gases as that would be silly to get 4 gases so early and you get a ton of minerals to be able to do both, now if we both take a third most likely I won't be able to deny it unless you are droning. If you take a third before I even attempt it, I am going to make lings and deny it. Again do you really think you can get a 4'th and 5'th and not die to a standard ling/infestor timing? Sure splitting mutalisks work great, but not when they are at your natural destroying you. Like that is just so greedy I could kill you with anything as long as I have anti air. I just don't get how you even think that can be viable at all vs this style >>. for spine crawlers, it's not like I am making spines at 6 minutes, I may make one but that's it. It's not like I am throwing down 6 spines that would be stupid and a waste of money (unless he is doing an early roach/ling timing). Having 1 down early isn't a problem, most pro's do this as well. Baneling nest, still like it before you have no idea how useful it is not only vs mas ling all ins, but if I accidently let him get a speed bane goign up the ramp it dies and gets no knowledge of what I am doing .Also guys here is a video show casing this style that I commentated vs a roach/speedbane and getting ultralisks. On June 18 2012 07:50 Moosegills wrote: I have another question for you blade. Can you describe you mindset/strategy when your opponent is also going this ling infestor style. That has been one of the things that have made me reluctant to try this style because it seems like it would turn into a pvp in that once u have both taking your thirds there is literally no attacking until both of you have your super armys, which would seem like a pretty boring way to play. Hm to be honest I have only seen it once, but I was ahead the whole game in terms of upgrades so I was able to kill him fast, my hive was faster to. But just go counter attacks and that's how the game will go if both players are doing this style. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
That attack can hit before infestors are out and the difference is huge. I understand you make banelings to stop his but with proper control he should trade them evenly and have more than you. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 19 2012 04:37 Clarity_nl wrote: Although it was a nice example of this style I don't feel that roach bane timing was very indicative of what might happens. That attack can hit before infestors are out and the difference is huge. I understand you make banelings to stop his but with proper control he should trade them evenly and have more than you. Hm don't forget 5 spines, you can hold just fine with banes of your own and his timing wont' be that big. You have to realize if he is doing this off of 3 base, his lair is going to be delayed. If he does this off of 2 base it can sit faster, but if you go 2 base lair as well he still won't have much of a timing. You have to remember he has to get lair to, he has to upgrade baneling speed and then he has to walk the lings across the map. It all evens out and is going to be hard to hit to much before infestors unless he is doing a low drone count roach/speedbane all in. On June 19 2012 06:10 oOOoOphidian wrote: How many spines should I have around 15 minutes if my opponent is going for a maxed out 2/2 roach attack with infestors? I got hit right before 3/3, adrenal glands, and ultralisks. I didn't have enough infestor/ling to really stop it and only 5 spines, while he attacked me with 6 banes, 5 infestors, and 43 roaches. I had 6 infestors and a ton of lings - do I need more infestors and more spines before I go for ultras if I see this? Well you should be adding spines once you start getting that heavy mineral count. What should be happening is you do want to have at about 6-8 infestors (8 if possible) and try to only fungel when he moves up a ramp to attack one of your bases. Spreading the lings is very critical to due to 2 fungels killing them regardless of upgrades. I would keep adding spines until ultralisks are out, not like a ton at once, but just adding them. I have only faced that timing once and I died because I heavily supply blocked myself and only had 1-2 spines. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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